[Ironring Racing]

Originally Posted by DMC126

Comparing Chevy Camaros and similar cars to BMW M cars based on lap times.....Really?!

You're right, it's a silly comparison. The Chevy's are in another league, they kicked ///M's ass.

Originally Posted by DMC126

Correct.

95 plus% of M5 and M6 drivers pay no attention to this type of virtually worthless "data." These purchases are based on the total package and BMW M cars continue to be highly valued.

All the anguish over the future of BMW M Division is severely misplaced. I noticed that out of over a 100 thread replies very few come from M owners. That fact alone speaks volumes.

Well, can't fault your logic. If M owners aren't interested in worthless "data" like track times, then of course they don't care, much less visit or post in a thread discussing track times. You're absolutely right, it speaks volumes!

If you understood the history of ///M (rather than just buying the badge) you'd understand how your views completely encapsulate the absolutely average consumer BMW is now marketing to, and you'd understand exactly why it's such a tragedy to those of us who hold the spirit of ///M so dear.

Originally Posted by DiavelM3

Eh? I never said they shouldn't be performance cars but everybody has their own definition or interpretation of what a performance car should be or what it should beat. It's ///M division so we should expect a better performing car from the previous gens and the cars it competes against. Does the M5 and M6 do this? Yep..
In this thread, people are expecting the mighty M6 to beat an RS5, a Corvette and a Camaro - none of which are even in the same class of car as the M6.
It's a performance car, yes, but it out-performs or performs as good as cars in its class - AMG, S series Audi's etc.
The M3 (E92) outperformed everything Audi could throw at it until they came out with (finally) the RS5 in 2013. Mercedes (AMG) added a performance pack adding more hp to their C63 which got spanked on tracks time and time again before then - and in some cases- still does. So, apples to apples? Yep!

Does the 3 series improve? No.

Does the M5 improve? No. In it's first C&D comparo it lost, to the E63 AMG & the S6 (MY GOD!!!). That's a HUGE step back from it's previous gen debut. Any track time improvements are mostly attributable to tire companies making better rubber, and more torque from the blown motor.

And the fact that you just confirmed that the M3 has now been beaten by everything else in it's class, well, thanks for the support. With the new M3 confirmed to basically be a factory chipped N54/55, well, color me unimpressed. Does M even make their own bespoke motors anymore? No, just hopped up versions of the I6 and V8.

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

You guys should buy the Chevy Camaro SS...

Before you go all smart-ass, have you sat in one? Interior sucks a$$, but that shifter (and my jaw dropped, believe me) is better than any BMW I've been in for a long time, it's almost Honda/Miata short & tight! As opposed to the CTS-V or C6 manuals which are like shifting with a walking stick.

Originally Posted by ufgtrs2007

The new M5 outperforms the old M5 in every performance aspect. It is arguably the best car BMW makes right now. For all the haters that are trashing BMW M, there is truth that the division is geared more towards marketing and sales, but who can argue with that, BMW is a company and is run like a business. That's not however mutually exclusive from making incredibly capable cars. To me M cars were about the total package, not whether it could lap a circuit faster than any other competitor. After driving an M3 and now an M5, I would never consider a regular series BMW, that is just how good M cars are. And for those who continue to complain about the direction of M division, I hope that you don't just listen to forum banter but rather go and drive these cars and evaluate them yourselves. If you don't like them, buy something else.

Uh, I can argue with that. Hey, I'm glad you like your slightly hopped up "REGULAR SERIES BMW's". Far less ///M improvements than there ever has been, but hey, your ignorance is your bliss.

For the rest of us, yes we care about lap times for ///M cars. That is, of course, where they were born. But I'm sure you already knew that, probably...

So rather than watch M fade away, we're trying to express our feelings, IN STEAD of simply buying something else (hey, it worked for the new Civic emergency redesign). I'm not spending my time typing cause I like my keyboard, I sincerely hope BMW listen (as has happened before), and it has some effect. Slim chance, and with guys like you buying M's simply because they're not "regular BMW's", it clearly shows the market BMW are targeting.

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

I hear alot of complainers, if you prefer the camaro or audi rs5 go buy them and post the picture to this thread, but you wont because bmw still makes the best all around car and i see no end to that legacy. You want bmw to make a car with the best luxury sport sex appeal and for 5k less than the competitor, cmon. The best way to show dislike is to take your $ elsewhere...

We all do see the end to the legacy, mostly because we understand the legacy to begin with. We'd rather not take our $ somewhere else, I like BMW and their history, and their previous focus. I just spent 16hrs racing one at Infineon/Sonoma, and I'm racing an M3 at the 25hrs of Thunderhill next year. I would PREFER if BMW were making cars TODAY that I want to race TOMORROW; but currently, the trend is not.

Originally Posted by ufgtrs2007

The M5 is not a track car. Period. I think that is where most people are missing the point. I bought my M5 because I wanted a capable fun to drive executive salon that is a pleasure to drive in the city then on a long distance trip. There is no car on the market at its price point that compares to the M5. Yes it is heavy, but the DCT paired with the V8TT is pure pleasure to drive. If I wanted something to take to the track, an E92 M is what I would buy over any Chevy. It's the overall package, not that it does so well on a circuit. We're all boy racers at heart, but lets be honest, 99% of us are not buying these cars to track them seriously.

Well, apparently you're right, and C&D agree with you. There's no car that compares to the new M5, because the competition is all better. The fact you bought an M automatic says it all. And yes, DCT is an auto, the clutch (or two) is simply the power transfer, the transmission is an automatic. Congratulations, you just bought the modern equivalent of your daddy's "Hot Rod" Buick.

Originally Posted by DiavelM3

+10000000000!!!!
Thank you!!! You said it perfectly!!! And like someone else mentioned earlier, its funny how out of 100 or so posts, most of the complainers\whiners don't even own an ///M car or they "test drove" one for 20-30 minutes...
Give me a break. How can you get a true feel of a car from a 20-30 minute test drive in the city????
Most of these complainers\whiners have probably never tracked a car much less a brand new M5 or M6
Yet, they're whining about track times of the M5 and M6 compared to cars that aren't even in its class. Really? Wow..
What's really sad is that even my girlfriend knows that the Camaro is a muscle car, the RS5's direct competitor is the M3 and the M6 is a GT car and none of which are even in the same segment..

Can your girlfriend read? Then she can educate you on how the segments are structured, it's in the weird characters on the page the rest of us call words. Hint: it's not by car layout.

After almost 20 years of racing and teaching 50+ schools (Porsche, BMW, Audi, Ferrari), yes, I have driven them all. If you want my opinion, it's on every page of this thread where it's been +1'd half a dozen times. And I agree with C&D's rating, as much as I don't like it, the new M5 is LAST in it's class (a class that doesn't even include the RS6).

It's not funny how few M owners are on this thread, it's SAD. And it says it all about the cars ///M is making, and who's buying them.

Originally Posted by TK-421

Improved suspension, quicker steering, bigger brakes... yeah you're right, since the HP numbers aren't increased, there's no performance boost at all. Sounds like modern M cars are perfect for you.

lol, agreed! But you didn't pack your post with emoticons, so you must be wrong.

Originally Posted by DiavelM3

Ahh ok, I see what you mean. I thought you were referring to performance boost = HP gains from the Comp pack on the E46 M3 - in which there was none

You mentioned in post 83 that the E92 Comp pack is a "joke" yet, the E92 M3 w\comp pack managed to do better track times than the Merc C63 AMG w\performance pack - 30hp more - on most every track out there. Remember, the C63 is a car in it's class.

Each year, the ///M division improves on the previous gens. and compete with cars in its class - Better suspension, brakes, engine etc... The E92 comp pack was an improvement over the previous gen. - without an increase in HP... Look, the E92 V8 weighs less than the Inline 6 in your E46 M3.... That's pretty amazing if you ask me!!

So, my question to you is, can an E46 M3 with Comp pack hang with a new C63 with perf pack (with experienced drivers at the wheels)?? Not even close and the only person you're fooling (or making excuses for) is yourself but thats ok, because it sounds like old M cars are perfect for you

So in short; Diavel said "Ahh, I see that you clearly proved me wrong, exposing my grade school definition of "Performance"; so please, let me insult your car, while again revealing my limited understanding of performance improvement, and wrap it up by calling out your 15yr old car against a brand new $75k Merc AMG."

Great defence of the brand and the current mentality of ///M owners. Really, you've made my argument for me.

///M has spent far too much time putting stickers on and calling it a special edition, putting slightly modded "regular series" BMW engines in SUV's and calling them M's, and bloating the hell out of everything. The surprise success of the 1M, a total parts bin car, speaks volumes to how out of touch ///M is. Basically copying improvements many had already done to their 135's and 335's on their own, basically ///M was 4-5 years behind the game. Still, they were so unsure of it (when on many fronts it gets back to ///M basics), they couldn't even bring themselves to give it a true M name, and were so unsure of it's success they only scheduled one year of production! But you can bet X6M's get a full production schedule! This is the mentality of the company, that they basically stumbled into producing their best reviewed car in years. Just imagine if the ///M designers spent all of the time on improving the M3 that they spent on "special editions", then we'd have our E90 M3 CSL that could go out there and truly stand toe to toe with Chevy's and not get their a$$ handed to them. Even the smallest car, the 1M, is just under 3400lbs!!!

There was a recent video comparison of all the M cars (was it Chris Harris, can't recall), and the E46 was his favorite of all the M's. Having driven all of them, for fun, yeah, I'd take one. Much more driver enjoyment than a new M5.

This is not a hate-on of BMW or ///M, it's a call to save it! Just like C&D's "Save the Manuals", SAVE the M's! The lightweight, RWD, balanced cars (unfortunately, NA is long gone at this point)!

Great choice TK! YOU understand ///M, even if they no longer do. Good luck with the E30 build. Pro3? Didn't think it was a big class in Florida? Guessing not since you're talking about a rear suspension swap. The endurance racing scene in the NW is just epic! Fields bigger than I've seen in years, and so many track within a short distance. I can still smell my Carmyth from Infineon, looking forward to the M3 at Thunderhill in 2013!