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      12-29-2012, 12:06 AM   #67
z335is
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Is the M3 time that was referenced earlier with or without ZCP?
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      12-29-2012, 12:07 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing
This is just getting old.

BMW continues to harvest it's driving focused reputation while releasing products that are slower and softer; with the goal not of producing the Ultimate Driving Machine, but of capturing market share by appealing to the middle/average consumer.

It results in a short term sales boost, until your reputation falters and people realize you're the new Toyota.

F30 335i 3 SECONDS slower than the E90 gen.
F30 335i just 0.7sec ahead of the Hyundai Genesis?
M5 & M6 get smoked by a Chevy, the SS 1LE, much less the ZL1? (Congrats to the Bow Tie crowd btw, wow!)
M5 now the HEAVIEST of the competition (C63 & S6-and it's AWD!!)!!?

It's sad to watch this company try to win the race to average.
+1
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      12-29-2012, 12:07 AM   #69
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I'm impressed with the 911 S
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      12-29-2012, 12:11 AM   #70
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http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...gring-lap.html

reason why i dont believe any gm times or press cars. Ferrari also "cheats" a little.
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      12-29-2012, 12:49 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
This is just getting old.

BMW continues to harvest it's driving focused reputation while releasing products that are slower and softer; with the goal not of producing the Ultimate Driving Machine, but of capturing market share by appealing to the middle/average consumer.

It results in a short term sales boost, until your reputation falters and people realize you're the new Toyota.

F30 335i 3 SECONDS slower than the E90 gen.
F30 335i just 0.7sec ahead of the Hyundai Genesis?
M5 & M6 get smoked by a Chevy, the SS 1LE, much less the ZL1? (Congrats to the Bow Tie crowd btw, wow!)
M5 now the HEAVIEST of the competition (C63 & S6-and it's AWD!!)!!?

It's sad to watch this company try to win the race to average.
Well said. People will call this hate. But you speak the truth.

BMW is no longer the Ultimate Driving Machine it once was. Living off the reputation of their earlier iconic cars...is waning.
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      12-29-2012, 12:50 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Lol you act so surprised. The M division is dead and, like someone said above, BMW is the new Toyota. Take me back 10-15 years ago to the E39 M5 and the CSL.
Said it years ago. I saw BMW becoming the German Toyota.
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      12-29-2012, 01:05 AM   #73
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WOW. Corvette base 3:01 and 3:03 in Z51 pkg. Z06 2:58. and ZR1 2:50!!

reason why i am moving to Chevy. 47k base vette with Z51 just whoop the doo'ed 100K+ M5/6's ASS!

corvette... what a car.

always loved BMW but they are slowly losing it.
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      12-29-2012, 01:16 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
The 2013 Car and Driver's Annual Lightning Lap Competition (#7) at the Virginia International Raceway has concluded and the results are in.

The F10 M5, F13 M6 coupe and the F30 335i sedan were tested and turned in the following times:


Full List by Times
Ferrari 458 - 2.49.9
Lexus LFA - 2.55.1
Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 2.57.5
Merc C63 Black Series - 2.58.0
Porsche 911 S - 2.58.9
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3.00.6
Chevy Camaro SS 1LE - 3.01.5
Jaguar XKR-S - 3.02.1
Porsche Boxster S - 3.04.2
Audi RS5 - 3.04.3
BMW M6 - 3.04.7
BMW M5 - 3.05.2
* BMW M3 (E92) - 3.05.4 (from last year's competition, for reference)
* BMW 1M Coupe - 3:06.6 (from last year's competition, for reference)
Audi S6 - 3.09.8
BMW 335i sedan - 3.13.2
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R - 3.13.9
Dodge Charger Pursuit - 3.17.8
Subaru BRZ - 3.18.6
Ford Focus St - 3.21.4
Chevy Caprice PPV - 3.23.0
Fiat 500 Abarth - 3.27.3


LL1 Category
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R - 3.13.9
Subaru BRZ - 3.18.6
Ford Focus St - 3.21.4
Fiat 500 Abarth - 3.27.3

LL2 Category
Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 2.57.5
Chevy Camaro SS 1LE - 3.01.5
BMW 335i sedan - 3.13.2

LL3 Category
Merc C63 Black Series - 2.58.0
Porsche 911 S - 2.58.9
Ford Shelby GT500 - 3.00.6
Porsche Boxster S - 3.04.2
Audi RS5 - 3.04.3
BMW M6 - 3.04.7
BMW M5 - 3.05.2

Audi S6 - 3.09.8

LL4 Category
Ferrari 458 - 2.49.9
Jaguar XKR-S - 3.02.1

LL5 Category
Lexus LFA - 2.55.1

Police Cars
Dodge Charger Pursuit - 3.17.8
Chevy Caprice PPV - 3.23.0


Perhaps it's BMW's way of selling the performance package, if any? Give you just enough and charge you for more?
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      12-29-2012, 02:29 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
This is just getting old.

BMW continues to harvest it's driving focused reputation while releasing products that are slower and softer; with the goal not of producing the Ultimate Driving Machine, but of capturing market share by appealing to the middle/average consumer.

It results in a short term sales boost, until your reputation falters and people realize you're the new Toyota.

F30 335i 3 SECONDS slower than the E90 gen.
F30 335i just 0.7sec ahead of the Hyundai Genesis?
M5 & M6 get smoked by a Chevy, the SS 1LE, much less the ZL1? (Congrats to the Bow Tie crowd btw, wow!)
M5 now the HEAVIEST of the competition (C63 & S6-and it's AWD!!)!!?

It's sad to watch this company try to win the race to average.
I agree 100%. How depressing. Their so busy making so many cars from 1-10 series that they forget the driving dynamics and what made BMW great. How can a Camaro SS smoke them, not even a ZL1. I really impress with the new American cars that are coming out from ford and chevy and cady. Their really coming up with good performance cars. Yes maybe their interior isn't that great yet. But their performance package has been picking up.
I can imagine the new C7 coming up, that going to be a track killer, especially the new zr1. I'm a bimmer fan but sometimes this things makes you think what's so great about these new cars their producing? I dont know it's just my two cents. Well have to wait and see the M4 and M3 , hopefully they can shine some light on BMW.
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      12-29-2012, 03:01 AM   #76
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BMW will learn like every other Car manufacture which gets a head of steam in sales. Every car company goes through this explosive growth in sales, demand is great then "It happens"..... Something derails the train and the company has to take a look back to see what happened and correct. All the big ones have had that issue. GM, Ford, Mercedes, Toyota. It is just a matter of time before VW/Audi/Porsche has a hiccup and BMW. The person who drives a BMW for what it is, can see what direction the company is/has gone in and i can only think that BMW will get its wake up call (not when you have record sales) but when your sales drop. Then the Brass will all get in a room and try to figure out what happened. Then they will have some BS campaign about "bringing BMW back to the classic ultimate driving experience"
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      12-29-2012, 05:21 AM   #77
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No doubt why... It is one of the best drivers cars at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by positiveions View Post
I'm impressed with the 911 S
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      12-29-2012, 05:44 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Said it years ago. I saw BMW becoming the German Toyota.
I would say that Opel, VW, and (european) Ford are much more comparable to being the German Toyota. At least to us europeans.

BMW might be the german Mazda or Honda, but definitely not the Toyota.
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      12-29-2012, 06:39 AM   #79
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Meh. I wouldn't be reading too much into one test at one track - assuming all cars are driven equally well, certain layouts will favour certain cars.

At the end of the day we can choose where we want to put out money (however much it is that we have) down on a car after sampling whatever takes our interest.

For me, I like to have a BMW in my stable. I don't care if something can lap the VIR quicker than my car can, I still don't want to drive it.
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      12-29-2012, 09:24 AM   #80
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      12-29-2012, 09:35 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newowner35i View Post
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...gring-lap.html

reason why i dont believe any gm times or press cars. Ferrari also "cheats" a little.
Why? I don't see where in the article it mentions or implies the Camaro used to run the Nurburgring times was a ringer. Please explain.
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      12-29-2012, 10:15 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiavelM3 View Post
The RS5 is more of a competition to the M3 not the M6.
I'm sure the new M3/M4 will spank it
The new M6 is just a big, heavy FAST GT car with, I would guess, the CL63 for its direct competition
Incorrect. That's what the 640 and 650 are. The M6 is supposed to be a high performance car. Unfortunately, its FAR from it. BMW M cars are no longer what they used to be.
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      12-29-2012, 11:04 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z335is View Post
Is the M3 time that was referenced earlier with or without ZCP?
It doesn't really matter because the competition package is a joke. It doesn't provide any real performance boost unlike the e46 m3 competition pack.
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      12-29-2012, 11:26 AM   #84
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You know chevy really knows how to do it right in terms of offerings. They have stayed true to the corvette brand. Not only does it get better each year, but it gets faster and higher quality interior and more luxurious. It also gets lighter and more performance oriented. To boot they manage to get better gas mileage without ditching their classic high hp/torque v8 layout.

M could take a page out of the book of what corvette does. One damn division in BMW could have stayed true to its heritage and it would only be a better brand for it. The press it gets from being the absolute best performer in my view more than makes up for any lost sales due to any m car being "too sporty"

COmpromise is great in terms of a brands entire offering but if you kill your niche segments which brought you the majority of good press than you are shooting yourself in the foot
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      12-29-2012, 11:46 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATS View Post
Incorrect. That's what the 640 and 650 are. The M6 is supposed to be a high performance car. Unfortunately, its FAR from it. BMW M cars are no longer what they used to be.
Uh, define High performance car. The new M5 and M6 perform better than their previous generations and they compete very well with cars in THEIR class so what exactly are you expecting? The M6 to be some sort of super car???

The '11 1M is a testament to where BMW ///M want to head with their smaller coupes. You have to remember that the M5 and M6 target different clientele and are essentially BIG GT cars...
The 1M,(future M2), and M4 will target a completely different clientele. These cars will be (and are) high performance coupes that will compete if not, whoop cars in their class.
I find it funny how people expect the new M6 to beat cars that are not even in it's class. Like the Camaro or Corvette.
Lets compare apples to apples folks
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      12-29-2012, 11:49 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
It doesn't really matter because the competition package is a joke. It doesn't provide any real performance boost unlike the e46 m3 competition pack.
How did the e46 M3 comp. pack provide a performance boost? There was no tune or HP upgrade when you purchased an e46 M3 with Comp pack..
I think you're referring to the Mercedes c63
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      12-29-2012, 11:55 AM   #87
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FIVE SECONDS is not much of a gap!? That's embarrassing for the Lexus, especially considering how much more it costs than the Ferrari (before it was sold out, anyways). The Camaro is only like two seconds behind the LFA.
I agree five seconds is a pretty big gap. At the cost of the LFA, it should of been right there with the 458. But I don't think the LL5 category (2 cars) is fair this year for two reasons. 1. In the video, C&D said they borrowed the LFA from a generous individual and not Lexus (I bet they held back bit). 2. According to Chris Harris, Ferrari most likely sent a team of race engineers to set up the 458 for VIR to achieve the fastest possible lap time.

However, apart from the exotics. It seems pretty straightforward negating weather and conditions. BMW should look away with embarrassment after their numbers got posted. BMW = major fail!
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      12-29-2012, 12:08 PM   #88
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