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      12-29-2012, 12:09 PM   #89
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If you read the C&D article, their comments about the M5 and M6 are just depressing. Although they seem convinced BMW can fix the issues? (mostly brakes and steering from what I remember).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric335 View Post
The ZL1 did a damn good job...
I had one go past me on the track like I was standing still. I feel a better seeing these results

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Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
S6 is not M5's competitor
It is something between 550 and M5
I'm driving one right now (my X6M drowned in the storm) and it's a hell of a car
S6 is now light, nimble, well ballanced and has a one crazy powertrain for its size
They say their target competitor is the 550xi. I think for the little extra money, I'd probably go with the S6 - the reviews (including yours) are amazing.
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      12-29-2012, 12:09 PM   #90
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Think the point is that SportAuto (considered the semi official time), using same driver and an absolute bone-stock car does a one lap measurement (1 warm up, one flying which is timed, one cool down). That's a lot different than taking your tuning prototype car, tuning the suspension/settings for various laps, and trying this 40 times and pick out the lowest time around the track. The SportAuto times are almost never higher vs test drivers and test cars on the Nurburgring will often have modifications or be prototype/tuning models.

GM also did this with the Cadillac CTS-V...had the supercharger tuned for the high elevations of the Nurburgring. There's just a lot of gaming results when it comes to 'Ring times by certain manufacturers.

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Originally Posted by AlterZgo View Post
Why? I don't see where in the article it mentions or implies the Camaro used to run the Nurburgring times was a ringer. Please explain.
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      12-29-2012, 12:26 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
You guys should buy the Chevy Camaro SS...

insecure much?
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      12-29-2012, 12:34 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
F30 335i 3 SECONDS slower than the E90 gen.

Keep in mind that last year a E92 335is ran a 3:13.8 (http://www.caranddriver.com/features...2-class-page-4)

So I'm not sure what was up with that 3:10.X time in 2007. I've owned 2 different 2007 E90 335i's, and while they are likely stronger than BMW's rating of 300/300, they don't match the power of the N54 in the 335is (which runs more boost). So how a regular 335i ran 3 seconds faster than an "is" is strange to me.

That an F30 335i (likely on all-seasons) ran the same time as the 335is from last year's event is pretty impressive. I still wish the cars would stop getting larger and larger, though. Is it because Americans are getting larger and larger? I just don't get it. If you want a bigger car, buy a 5-series.
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      12-29-2012, 02:05 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterZgo
Quote:
Originally Posted by newowner35i View Post
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...gring-lap.html

reason why i dont believe any gm times or press cars. Ferrari also "cheats" a little.
Why? I don't see where in the article it mentions or implies the Camaro used to run the Nurburgring times was a ringer. Please explain.
well the zl1 may not have been caged, but maybe gm could have modified the suspension, more sport orientated tires, increased boost or supercharger changes. They didnt seem to use racecar drivers, just editors right?
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      12-29-2012, 02:25 PM   #94
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What performance options did the 335i have? If it was sport line, then I'm disappointed...I could usually tell it wasn't the M sport package.
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      12-29-2012, 03:18 PM   #95
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The zl1 and the camaro 1le both have magnetic suspension same type of suspension used in ferraris
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      12-29-2012, 03:22 PM   #96
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disappointing...
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      12-29-2012, 04:02 PM   #97
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hmmm. the porsche boxster beat all the m-bmws. that's the cheapest porsche, maybe bmw has something to learn from them.
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      12-29-2012, 04:04 PM   #98
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Very bad results for BMW. Really disapointing. BMW better get the M3 F80 right, because the current tendency is bad for the long-term results. The RS6 is unfortunately going to murder the M5, and the M5 this time won't even have the sound to save it.

Strange evolution:

Audi = "new BMW"
BMW = "new Mercedes"
Mercedes = "new Bangle era"
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      12-29-2012, 04:23 PM   #99
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Comparing Chevy Camaros and similar cars to BMW M cars based on lap times.....Really?!
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      12-29-2012, 04:23 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiavelM3 View Post
Uh, define High performance car. The new M5 and M6 perform better than their previous generations and they compete very well with cars in THEIR class so what exactly are you expecting? The M6 to be some sort of super car???
So M cars are not supposed to be high performance cars then??? Besides, for the ridiculous amount of money BMW charges for the M6 it better perform like one, otherwise what's the point of going for the M6 instead of the 650?

I'm not expecting it to be a supercar, but it should be dramatically faster than an E92 M3. It isn't. But the obvious fact that it weighs almost as much as a Panamera puts it on a class of it own: the overweight, overpriced, poseur GT class. Aka: the new BMW.
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      12-29-2012, 04:50 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMC126 View Post
Comparing Chevy Camaros and similar cars to BMW M cars based on lap times.....Really?!

performance wise, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATS View Post
So M cars are not supposed to be high performance cars then??? Besides, for the ridiculous amount of money BMW charges for the M6 it better perform like one, otherwise what's the point of going for the M6 instead of the 650?

I'm not expecting it to be a supercar, but it should be dramatically faster than an E92 M3. It isn't. But the obvious fact that it weighs almost as much as a Panamera puts it on a class of it own: the overweight, overpriced, poseur GT class. Aka: the new BMW.
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      12-29-2012, 05:10 PM   #102
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.....how'd the RS5 go faster? wtf?
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      12-29-2012, 06:25 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiavelM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob///M5 View Post
Chevy...wow
Thats what I was just thinking!!! Thats amazing that a Camaro got 3rd considering the competition.. Wow! Way to go Chevy
Where is the Nissan GT-R?
Yeah I was wondering why the GTR wasn't included? Is it limited to new models only?
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      12-29-2012, 06:39 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATS View Post
So M cars are not supposed to be high performance cars then??? Besides, for the ridiculous amount of money BMW charges for the M6 it better perform like one, otherwise what's the point of going for the M6 instead of the 650?

I'm not expecting it to be a supercar, but it should be dramatically faster than an E92 M3. It isn't. But the obvious fact that it weighs almost as much as a Panamera puts it on a class of it own: the overweight, overpriced, poseur GT class. Aka: the new BMW.
Eh? I never said they shouldn't be performance cars but everybody has their own definition or interpretation of what a performance car should be or what it should beat. It's ///M division so we should expect a better performing car from the previous gens and the cars it competes against. Does the M5 and M6 do this? Yep..
In this thread, people are expecting the mighty M6 to beat an RS5, a Corvette and a Camaro - none of which are even in the same class of car as the M6.
It's a performance car, yes, but it out-performs or performs as good as cars in its class - AMG, S series Audi's etc.
The M3 (E92) outperformed everything Audi could throw at it until they came out with (finally) the RS5 in 2013. Mercedes (AMG) added a performance pack adding more hp to their C63 which got spanked on tracks time and time again before then - and in some cases- still does. So, apples to apples? Yep!

These times are for reference only and comparing the M6 to some of these cars would be like (if we were in a MERC forum), they compared the CL63 AMG to the M3, Camaro and Corvette on track times. It just doesn't make any sense
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      12-29-2012, 07:36 PM   #105
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M5 did quite well on Nurburgring, compared to E63 PPK, CLS 63 PPK and Panamera Turbo Sport Chrono..
Also RS5 was not so impressive on the 'ring.
There are many variables here and I think there is a little bit of publicity too...
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      12-29-2012, 08:08 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiavelM3 View Post
These times are for reference only and comparing the M6 to some of these cars would be like (if we were in a MERC forum), they compared the CL63 AMG to the M3, Camaro and Corvette on track times. It just doesn't make any sense
Correct.

95 plus% of M5 and M6 drivers pay no attention to this type of virtually worthless "data." These purchases are based on the total package and BMW M cars continue to be highly valued.

All the anguish over the future of BMW M Division is severely misplaced. I noticed that out of over a 100 thread replies very few come from M owners. That fact alone speaks volumes.
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      12-29-2012, 08:31 PM   #107
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It's really sad; some people on this forum get it, and yet, others continue to cling to the infallablility of BMW and render excuse after excuse for what clearly is yet more proof that BMW is getting soft and is no longer in business for the world's car lover that demands the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

Before I get flamed, I'm a huge BMW fan. I couldn't think of another car that I aspired to own more than an M3 growing up. This love affair started when I was in middle school and continues to this day. That being said, it's becoming more and more evident that now that I can finally afford some of the best BMWs money can buy, they're no longer the cars I remember them to be.

There was once a time where every car that BMW offered was the undeniable standard for its class, especially when it came to chassis dynamics, weight, steering feel and brake feel. So dominant was BMWs performance on a road and track that no one even dared debate it; one only bought a Mercedes or Audi simply because they preferred less BMW-like traits such as a quieter or softer ride. But no one bought a competitor's car because it performed better, that much is certain.

Today, this isn't the case. Not by a long shot. BMWs are heavy. They're overly feature laden. They no longer dominate comparison tests. The steering feel they were once lauded for is now gone, replaced by a half-baked electric system that saves less than a mile per gallon. Competitors have equalled their magical chassis dynamics (see Cadillac ATS, Audi S6, et al). They suffer from a Ford Mustang-like obsession with badge and tape "special editions" (how many "special" BMW M3s are there that offer absolutely nothing in terms of increased performance?). Their product portfolio includes Gran Turismos, Gran Coupes, and "Sport Activity Vehicles" (if that douchey acronym doesn't sound like something conceived by some marketing jerk-off in a conference room somewhere, I don't know what does) that only serve to diminish the purity of the brand in exchange for 300 sales in a niche market that never existed, and never will. Frankly, it's getting harder and harder to ascertain the original meaning of "M" in todays "M" cars. Does "M" stand for Marketing? I think the time has finally come that yes, indeed, it does.

Some of you can desperately cling to your excuses as if doing so will change the reality that a $50,000 4,100 lb. Camaro DESTROYED every M car in BMWs stable around a very well regarded track. If the ZLI destroyed them, then the $38,000, 3,900 lb, naturally aspirated Camaro 1LE BITCH SLAPPED them without the luxury of having any technical suspension, transmission or engine wizardry or any other gee-wiz do-dads. All it possessed was a well tuned and designed chassis (hmm, that sounds familiar...).

That's reality. These are the facts, people. And no, no amount of denial makes that fact go away. An 8 second difference is eternity on a track like VIR. Let me be clear; such a difference in time doesn't indicate poor drivers, bad tire selection, less-than-ideal weather conditions or any other poor excuse. Car and Driver has been running this annual event for years and years and years. They know what they're doing. Pure and simple, BMW got it's lunch ate by a better track car, pure and simple.

I don't say this as a "hater" or a "troll". I say this as a long admirer of BMW, or more accurately, an admirer of what BMW used to stand for. For me, enough is enough. I'm a car enthusiast true and true. There used to be a time that a car guy like me would own a BMW nine times out of ten as his personal daily driver. No more, however. Until BMW gets their shit together, realizes the values and engineering standards that got them where they are today and changes their bottom-feeding, let's-please-everyone design ethos, they can count me out as a future buyer. Unlike ten years ago, there's many choices out there for a guy like me.

Last edited by Cgm9999; 12-29-2012 at 08:36 PM.
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      12-29-2012, 08:32 PM   #108
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Quote:
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Impressed by the Audi RS5.
The updated RS5 is apparently quite a bit better. Interesting result this, very surprised by how slow the Carrera S is. I wonder what is the spec.
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      12-29-2012, 09:03 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgm9999 View Post
There was once a time where every car that BMW offered was the undeniable standard for its class, especially when it came to chassis dynamics, weight, steering feel and brake feel. So dominant was BMWs performance on a road and track that no one even dared debate it; one only bought a Mercedes or Audi simply because they preferred less BMW-like traits such as a quieter or softer ride. But no one bought a competitor's car because it performed better, that much is certain.

Today, this isn't the case. Not by a long shot.
I agree with this. 10-15 years ago, BMW was pretty much the only company making cars that one could call "sport sedans" with a straight face. How much things have changed! The competition has made huge leaps forward while BMW is moving in the opposite direction.

The fact that the A4/A6 are considered dynamically superior to the 3/5 by magazine publications that, at one time, were so pro-BMW that they were accused of being on BMW's payroll is really quite telling. A decade ago, this would have been unthinkable. Audi used to be a car for people who wanted a low key Mercedes. And Cadillac, a traditionally geriatric brand that used to depend on a captive market of WWII vets who refused to buy anything German or Japanese, is now making a better compact sports sedan than the company responsible for inventing that market segment.

In the meanwhile, BMW has been busy trying to figure out how to make their cars more like Mercedes and less like what they used to be. Sad..
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      12-29-2012, 09:05 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
No doubt why... It is one of the best drivers cars at the moment.
yep. Car looks awesome, and I think it is far non the best looking 911.
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