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      12-29-2012, 09:07 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Cgm9999 View Post
It's really sad; some people on this forum get it, and yet, others continue to cling to the infallablility of BMW and render excuse after excuse for what clearly is yet more proof that BMW is getting soft and is no longer in business for the world's car lover that demands the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

Before I get flamed, I'm a huge BMW fan. I couldn't think of another car that I aspired to own more than an M3 growing up. This love affair started when I was in middle school and continues to this day. That being said, it's becoming more and more evident that now that I can finally afford some of the best BMWs money can buy, they're no longer the cars I remember them to be.

There was once a time where every car that BMW offered was the undeniable standard for its class, especially when it came to chassis dynamics, weight, steering feel and brake feel. So dominant was BMWs performance on a road and track that no one even dared debate it; one only bought a Mercedes or Audi simply because they preferred less BMW-like traits such as a quieter or softer ride. But no one bought a competitor's car because it performed better, that much is certain.

Today, this isn't the case. Not by a long shot. BMWs are heavy. They're overly feature laden. They no longer dominate comparison tests. The steering feel they were once lauded for is now gone, replaced by a half-baked electric system that saves less than a mile per gallon. Competitors have equalled their magical chassis dynamics (see Cadillac ATS, Audi S6, et al). They suffer from a Ford Mustang-like obsession with badge and tape "special editions" (how many "special" BMW M3s are there that offer absolutely nothing in terms of increased performance?). Their product portfolio includes Gran Turismos, Gran Coupes, and "Sport Activity Vehicles" (if that douchey acronym doesn't sound like something conceived by some marketing jerk-off in a conference room somewhere, I don't know what does) that only serve to diminish the purity of the brand in exchange for 300 sales in a niche market that never existed, and never will. Frankly, it's getting harder and harder to ascertain the original meaning of "M" in todays "M" cars. Does "M" stand for Marketing? I think the time has finally come that yes, indeed, it does.

Some of you can desperately cling to your excuses as if doing so will change the reality that a $50,000 4,100 lb. Camaro DESTROYED every M car in BMWs stable around a very well regarded track. If the ZLI destroyed them, then the $38,000, 3,900 lb, naturally aspirated Camaro 1LE BITCH SLAPPED them without the luxury of having any technical suspension, transmission or engine wizardry or any other gee-wiz do-dads. All it possessed was a well tuned and designed chassis (hmm, that sounds familiar...).

That's reality. These are the facts, people. And no, no amount of denial makes that fact go away. An 8 second difference is eternity on a track like VIR. Let me be clear; such a difference in time doesn't indicate poor drivers, bad tire selection, less-than-ideal weather conditions or any other poor excuse. Car and Driver has been running this annual event for years and years and years. They know what they're doing. Pure and simple, BMW got it's lunch ate by a better track car, pure and simple.

I don't say this as a "hater" or a "troll". I say this as a long admirer of BMW, or more accurately, an admirer of what BMW used to stand for. For me, enough is enough. I'm a car enthusiast true and true. There used to be a time that a car guy like me would own a BMW nine times out of ten as his personal daily driver. No more, however. Until BMW gets their shit together, realizes the values and engineering standards that got them where they are today and changes their bottom-feeding, let's-please-everyone design ethos, they can count me out as a future buyer. Unlike ten years ago, there's many choices out there for a guy like me.


Well said and I agree. I always loved BMW. They were clearly the sporting choice of german luxury. They sold out for more sales and to one up Mercedes in luxury car sales. In the process, they became more and more disconnected to their core buyers. Now Audi, the ever boring Audi, makes some really nice looking and performing cars. I NEVER liked Audi for their boring, safe, yuppy styling and boring performing cars, Now, I would easily rather buy and Audi S6, S7 and S8 over the equivalent competitor from BMW.
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      12-29-2012, 09:41 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by TK-421
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Originally Posted by z335is View Post
Is the M3 time that was referenced earlier with or without ZCP?
It doesn't really matter because the competition package is a joke. It doesn't provide any real performance boost unlike the e46 m3 competition pack.
Most tests have yielded a slight difference in times, so I would have to assume a 1 or 2 sec improvement in the Lightning lap with ZCP.
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      12-29-2012, 10:00 PM   #113
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Starting with the next 7 series BMW will light-up their cars...
LCI 5 series will receive the updated 50i engine from the 6 GC so I don't see any advantage from S6 over it
Audi has some really good cars these days, like R8 and S8, but they are not so many
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      12-29-2012, 10:03 PM   #114
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Where is the M135i? Or is that not on sale in the US? Australian Motor magazine just had their annual performance car cup, and had M135i in there too. Very interesting lap time from the baby MPA especially compared to M5 and it's fellow hot hatches including arguably the best hot hatch in the world (Megane RS265).
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      12-29-2012, 10:22 PM   #115
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The new M5 outperforms the old M5 in every performance aspect. It is arguably the best car BMW makes right now. For all the haters that are trashing BMW M, there is truth that the division is geared more towards marketing and sales, but who can argue with that, BMW is a company and is run like a business. That's not however mutually exclusive from making incredibly capable cars. To me M cars were about the total package, not whether it could lap a circuit faster than any other competitor. After driving an M3 and now an M5, I would never consider a regular series BMW, that is just how good M cars are. And for those who continue to complain about the direction of M division, I hope that you don't just listen to forum banter but rather go and drive these cars and evaluate them yourselves. If you don't like them, buy something else.
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      12-29-2012, 11:26 PM   #116
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The referenced 09 test was non-ZCP (but was a DCT). The 08 test was .2 secs slower and was a manual transmission.

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Originally Posted by z335is View Post
Is the M3 time that was referenced earlier with or without ZCP?
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      12-29-2012, 11:47 PM   #117
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I tested out an F10 M5 a few days ago and I was let down a bit. It's definitely faster than the E60, but it's also heavier, more isolated and more numb. It lacked the character of other M cars I've owned or driven. I could see myself owning one, but there was no feeling of "Wow, I need to have one of these!"

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I'm impressed with the 911 S
I also test drove one of those the same day (along with an E63 and an R8 4.2.) All I'll say is that I was also impressed by the 911 S. Really, really impressed.
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      12-30-2012, 12:08 AM   #118
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Dumb. In every regard.
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      12-30-2012, 12:18 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by ufgtrs2007 View Post
The new M5 outperforms the old M5 in every performance aspect. It is arguably the best car BMW makes right now. For all the haters that are trashing BMW M, there is truth that the division is geared more towards marketing and sales, but who can argue with that, BMW is a company and is run like a business. That's not however mutually exclusive from making incredibly capable cars. To me M cars were about the total package, not whether it could lap a circuit faster than any other competitor. After driving an M3 and now an M5, I would never consider a regular series BMW, that is just how good M cars are. And for those who continue to complain about the direction of M division, I hope that you don't just listen to forum banter but rather go and drive these cars and evaluate them yourselves. If you don't like them, buy something else.
I drove the M5 in Spain during the launch, and then at Philips Island (motoGP track) which is one of the local tracks I'm very familiar with. Both times, I was let down by the fact that this isn't a car you would track. Sure, it's quick (less so in the wet Ascari where it was a real handful), but you can feel the weight of the car. It was not pleasant thing to drive on the track. It doesn't have the tactile feeling of a true sports car, which M3 and 1M have abundant of. Now, I also drove the M5 in the Andalusia mountains and also locally in Melbourne, and that is where it made sense. The car is comfortable, mighty quick and can carry your whole family comfortably. And I think that is where the M5 should stay.
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      12-30-2012, 01:56 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Lol you act so surprised. The M division is dead and, like someone said above, BMW is the new Toyota. Take me back 10-15 years ago to the E39 M5 and the CSL.
..I keep hoping there will be a NEW lightweight racing division to replace M above it (ala Black?) CSL deevision or some sort

M has marketing power and I can respect wanting to build your company... but ?

...Toyotafication / VWification scares me
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      12-30-2012, 02:08 AM   #121
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Why? I don't see where in the article it mentions or implies the Camaro used to run the Nurburgring times was a ringer. Please explain.

..I was scratching my head after reading this as well....
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      12-30-2012, 02:11 AM   #122
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You guys should buy the Chevy Camaro SS...

..HA! ... IMHO the interiors of Camaros are unsettleing
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      12-30-2012, 02:13 AM   #123
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Think the point is that SportAuto (considered the semi official time), using same driver and an absolute bone-stock car does a one lap measurement (1 warm up, one flying which is timed, one cool down). That's a lot different than taking your tuning prototype car, tuning the suspension/settings for various laps, and trying this 40 times and pick out the lowest time around the track. The SportAuto times are almost never higher vs test drivers and test cars on the Nurburgring will often have modifications or be prototype/tuning models.

GM also did this with the Cadillac CTS-V...had the supercharger tuned for the high elevations of the Nurburgring. There's just a lot of gaming results when it comes to 'Ring times by certain manufacturers.
ahhh ok I see your point now... thanks ~
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      12-30-2012, 02:16 AM   #124
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While many might lament the M halo cars new softer demeanor, if you want a good performance BMW, forget about driving a 520d (even though its a great car) and bagging the bragging rights at the pub that yours is basically the same as the one on the M5 (because it just isn't)...

Rather look nearer to the bottom end of the range; M135i, 135i coupe, anything with a 35 on it.

BMW are just making drivers cars more accessible (why I 'em) and for that you gotta stop worrying about numbers, snobbery and get on with buying what you like because its great to drive, if that's REALLY all you want.
I know people who wouldn't buy a 1M just because its got the '1' on it, and they want at least 3 or higher. If that is the way you think (and I suspect a few here do), then its your own fault for being so upset, so the M5 (sedan) and M6 (grand tourer of note) is slower than some real high powered muscle cars, who cares? need to get over yourselves...

(Reminds me of Honda in the 1990's. Drive any new honda today to get an idea how far any company can go astray in pursuit of a quick buck.)
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      12-30-2012, 02:20 AM   #125
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I agree with this. 10-15 years ago, BMW was pretty much the only company making cars that one could call "sport sedans" with a straight face. How much things have changed! The competition has made huge leaps forward while BMW is moving in the opposite direction.

The fact that the A4/A6 are considered dynamically superior to the 3/5 by magazine publications that, at one time, were so pro-BMW that they were accused of being on BMW's payroll is really quite telling. A decade ago, this would have been unthinkable. Audi used to be a car for people who wanted a low key Mercedes. And Cadillac, a traditionally geriatric brand that used to depend on a captive market of WWII vets who refused to buy anything German or Japanese, is now making a better compact sports sedan than the company responsible for inventing that market segment.

In the meanwhile, BMW has been busy trying to figure out how to make their cars more like Mercedes and less like what they used to be. Sad..
VERY well said
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      12-30-2012, 08:20 AM   #126
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I hear alot of complainers, if you prefer the camaro or audi rs5 go buy them and post the picture to this thread, but you wont because bmw still makes the best all around car and i see no end to that legacy. You want bmw to make a car with the best luxury sport sex appeal and for 5k less than the competitor, cmon. The best way to show dislike is to take your $ elsewhere...
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      12-30-2012, 08:47 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
I hear alot of complainers, if you prefer the camaro or audi rs5 go buy them and post the picture to this thread, but you wont because bmw still makes the best all around car and i see no end to that legacy. You want bmw to make a car with the best luxury sport sex appeal and for 5k less than the competitor, cmon. The best way to show dislike is to take your $ elsewhere...
lol that's so true. As much as I miss the old M cars and the way they used to be. I would never buy a Merc or Audi. (Never say never) but that's what I think now. As much as the camaro zL1 killed every M car. I would rather used that money to buy an M3. We all know it bang for our buck. As much as I like the new zl1 or always loved the vettes I never went back after owning my first BMW.

In that case if myself and many don't like the new M cars that car coming out then we can still buy the previous years M cars. It's not like their isn't anymore around or for sale. Yes their used, but as we know BMW are made to last and I know because my moms BMW has been in a few big accidents and its still running strong if not better than a few other brands.

I've test drove the new M line up. Not my cup of tie, but not because of its performance but because its not my style, not even the E92 M3. I prefer the 1M. But that's what I like small cars. Like the mini coupe, e46 m3, 135i, lotus and future M2.

BMW is at its high because it makes every car to each person likes and expectations. That's why their making so many classes. How is a M5 going to perform like a camaro when it's a luxury yet sporty when u need it. You can track it, but it wasn't made for that. Yet the camaro zl1 was only made for one thing and that was track or performance, call it what you want. Your not going to take your family on a long trip with a loud exhaust or a uncomfortable suspension right.
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      12-30-2012, 10:26 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marioalex24
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Originally Posted by antzcrashing View Post
I hear alot of complainers, if you prefer the camaro or audi rs5 go buy them and post the picture to this thread, but you wont because bmw still makes the best all around car and i see no end to that legacy. You want bmw to make a car with the best luxury sport sex appeal and for 5k less than the competitor, cmon. The best way to show dislike is to take your $ elsewhere...
lol that's so true. As much as I miss the old M cars and the way they used to be. I would never buy a Merc or Audi. (Never say never) but that's what I think now. As much as the camaro zL1 killed every M car. I would rather used that money to buy an M3. We all know it bang for our buck. As much as I like the new zl1 or always loved the vettes I never went back after owning my first BMW.

In that case if myself and many don't like the new M cars that car coming out then we can still buy the previous years M cars. It's not like their isn't anymore around or for sale. Yes their used, but as we know BMW are made to last and I know because my moms BMW has been in a few big accidents and its still running strong if not better than a few other brands.

I've test drove the new M line up. Not my cup of tie, but not because of its performance but because its not my style, not even the E92 M3. I prefer the 1M. But that's what I like small cars. Like the mini coupe, e46 m3, 135i, lotus and future M2.

BMW is at its high because it makes every car to each person likes and expectations. That's why their making so many classes. How is a M5 going to perform like a camaro when it's a luxury yet sporty when u need it. You can track it, but it wasn't made for that. Yet the camaro zl1 was only made for one thing and that was track or performance, call it what you want. Your not going to take your family on a long trip with a loud exhaust or a uncomfortable suspension right.

The M5 is not a track car. Period. I think that is where most people are missing the point. I bought my M5 because I wanted a capable fun to drive executive salon that is a pleasure to drive in the city then on a long distance trip. There is no car on the market at its price point that compares to the M5. Yes it is heavy, but the DCT paired with the V8TT is pure pleasure to drive. If I wanted something to take to the track, an E92 M is what I would buy over any Chevy. It's the overall package, not that it does so well on a circuit. We're all boy racers at heart, but lets be honest, 99% of us are not buying these cars to track them seriously.
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      12-30-2012, 11:04 AM   #129
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The M5 is not a track car. Period. I think that is where most people are missing the point. I bought my M5 because I wanted a capable fun to drive executive salon that is a pleasure to drive in the city then on a long distance trip. There is no car on the market at its price point that compares to the M5. Yes it is heavy, but the DCT paired with the V8TT is pure pleasure to drive. If I wanted something to take to the track, an E92 M is what I would buy over any Chevy. It's the overall package, not that it does so well on a circuit. We're all boy racers at heart, but lets be honest, 99% of us are not buying these cars to track them seriously.
+10000000000!!!!
Thank you!!! You said it perfectly!!! And like someone else mentioned earlier, its funny how out of 100 or so posts, most of the complainers\whiners don't even own an ///M car or they "test drove" one for 20-30 minutes...
Give me a break. How can you get a true feel of a car from a 20-30 minute test drive in the city????
Most of these complainers\whiners have probably never tracked a car much less a brand new M5 or M6
Yet, they're whining about track times of the M5 and M6 compared to cars that aren't even in its class. Really? Wow..
What's really sad is that even my girlfriend knows that the Camaro is a muscle car, the RS5's direct competitor is the M3 and the M6 is a GT car and none of which are even in the same segment..
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      12-30-2012, 11:06 AM   #130
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For the folks who like comparing apples to oranges
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      12-30-2012, 12:17 PM   #131
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How did the e46 M3 comp. pack provide a performance boost? There was no tune or HP upgrade when you purchased an e46 M3 with Comp pack..
I think you're referring to the Mercedes c63
Improved suspension, quicker steering, bigger brakes... yeah you're right, since the HP numbers aren't increased, there's no performance boost at all. Sounds like modern M cars are perfect for you.
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      12-30-2012, 12:19 PM   #132
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For the folks who like comparing apples to oranges
The GTR is automatic and he still fucked it up. You can hear him bog first and bounce off limiter.
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