Project ColdList Silverstone F10 M5 build thread

[uhn2000]

Beauty and same exact spec as mine - I love it! You need some spacers to finish it up!

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by uhn2000

Beauty and same exact spec as mine - I love it! You need some spacers to finish it up!

Thank you. Actually my HRE S101s are on the way with custom offsets. I won't need spacers.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by SANguru

My dyno shows gain in torque. Did you dyno it?? BTW, ever heard of adaptation? You take it off and not let the ECU adapt or start right up, of course it will run like crap.

You are not a liar.. just inexperienced

not my car so I don't really care. You can go believe what you want to believe

CLEARLY I was incorrect....

[Ilia@IND]

Mike,

I am very sorry to hear that you're having trouble with your M5.

I have not seen evidence that any Eisenmann systems for the F10 M5 lose power or torque over the OE exhaust, both in our own testing at AMS, in testing at Eisenmann's facility in Germany, and in independent testing by Eisenmann customers worldwide.

Our own test results can be seen here:

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=49




Were you able to test the M5 before and after the exhaust install to check power output? Any noticeable reduction in performance should have shown itself on a dynamometer, and with a dyno graph in hand we could help you in diagnosing your issue.

One area I would suggest checking is the vacuum line running to the rear mufflers. If the vacuum lines are not plugged during the exhaust installation your M5's performance can be affected significantly. It is possible that these were left hanging and open during the Eisenmann install, and then re-attached to the OE BMW valves when the OE exhaust system was re-installed.

Installers frequently omit installing the vacuum line- so often, in fact, that we have actually moved to attaching warning labels on each exhaust system we ship:

"All Eisenmann systems not using the OE vacuum control system must plug and close the vacuum lines at the rear of the car. Failure to do so will result in reduced power and ECU trouble codes."

Ultimately it is very difficult to say exactly what happened without hard figures or testing. A simple lap around the block does not give us enough data to diagnose the issue.


With regard to tip size and it's effect on power output-

Eisenmann tested each tip size in-house for not only power output but decibel output (as required by the German TUV), and found no difference in power output with the larger 102mm tips. A transition from a smaller pipe in the muffler to a larger pipe at the outlet will not reduce power output, as it will not restrict exhaust flow.

As a thought experiment, picture which exhaust system would create more exhaust restriction- one with 20mm exhaust tips, or one with no exhaust tips at all? The 20mm exhaust tips would create a major restriction in flow, while the system with no tips (or infinitely large ones) would not have an impact on power output.

Exhaust tips are more of a cosmetic finishing item than a contributor to the power output of an exhaust system.



Once again, I am very sorry to hear that you've had trouble at all, whether the trouble was related to the installation of the exhaust or not. We are here to support you in any case, whether you'd like to re-install the Eisenmann system and pursue a solution to the problem you felt, or whether you'd like to simply send the exhaust back for a refund.

[Poleposition]

Sounds like a bad install to me.

[jmh]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

Mike,

I am very sorry to hear that you're having trouble with your M5.

I have not seen evidence that any Eisenmann systems for the F10 M5 lose power or torque over the OE exhaust, both in our own testing at AMS, in testing at Eisenmann's facility in Germany, and in independent testing by Eisenmann customers worldwide.

Our own test results can be seen here:

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=49


Were you able to test the M5 before and after the exhaust install to check power output? Any noticeable reduction in performance should have shown itself on a dynamometer, and with a dyno graph in hand we could help you in diagnosing your issue.

One area I would suggest checking is the vacuum line running to the rear mufflers. If the vacuum lines are not plugged during the exhaust installation your M5's performance can be affected significantly. It is possible that these were left hanging and open during the Eisenmann install, and then re-attached to the OE BMW valves when the OE exhaust system was re-installed.

Installers frequently omit installing the vacuum line- so often, in fact, that we have actually moved to attaching warning labels on each exhaust system we ship:

"All Eisenmann systems not using the OE vacuum control system must plug and close the vacuum lines at the rear of the car. Failure to do so will result in reduced power and ECU trouble codes."

Ultimately it is very difficult to say exactly what happened without hard figures or testing. A simple lap around the block does not give us enough data to diagnose the issue.


With regard to tip size and it's effect on power output-

Eisenmann tested each tip size in-house for not only power output but decibel output (as required by the German TUV), and found no difference in power output with the larger 102mm tips. A transition from a smaller pipe in the muffler to a larger pipe at the outlet will not reduce power output, as it will not restrict exhaust flow.

As a thought experiment, picture which exhaust system would create more exhaust restriction- one with 20mm exhaust tips, or one with no exhaust tips at all? The 20mm exhaust tips would create a major restriction in flow, while the system with no tips (or infinitely large ones) would not have an impact on power output.

Exhaust tips are more of a cosmetic finishing item than a contributor to the power output of an exhaust system.



Once again, I am very sorry to hear that you've had trouble at all, whether the trouble was related to the installation of the exhaust or not. We are here to support you in any case, whether you'd like to re-install the Eisenmann system and pursue a solution to the problem you felt, or whether you'd like to simply send the exhaust back for a refund.

Thanks Ilia for bringing some sanity to this thread
IND's service has been outstanding and you always try to do right by your customers!

[RPiM5]

What an imbroglio I have found myself in by coming into this thread.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

One area I would suggest checking is the vacuum line running to the rear mufflers. If the vacuum lines are not plugged during the exhaust installation your M5's performance can be affected significantly. It is possible that these were left hanging and open during the Eisenmann install, and then re-attached to the OE BMW valves when the OE exhaust system was re-installed.

Installers frequently omit installing the vacuum line- so often, in fact, that we have actually moved to attaching warning labels on each exhaust system we ship:

"All Eisenmann systems not using the OE vacuum control system must plug and close the vacuum lines at the rear of the car. Failure to do so will result in reduced power and ECU trouble codes."

This. I know, it happened to me. I drove away and could not believe that the exhaust did this. Just as its been mentioned that exhaust will not create huge gains; I could not see it causing as much of a power loss as I felt. I drove back and my installer forgot to plug the lines. Boom, instant power return. Ill bet that is what happened here. It was like driving a non boosted turbo car.

[Ilia@IND]

Originally Posted by Vic55

This. I know, it happened to me. I drove away and could not believe that the exhaust did this. Just as its been mentioned that exhaust will not create huge gains; I could not see it causing as much of a power loss as I felt. I drove back and my installer forgot to plug the lines. Boom, instant power return. Ill bet that is what happened here. It was like driving a non boosted turbo car.

Absolutely. We've been informed now that the installer on Mike's car in particular simply folded the vacuum line over on itself, and put a ziptie around it to clamp it. For the benefit of the forum and anyone installing any exhaust system (not just Eisenmann), be sure to create an air tight seal when plugging the vacuum lines leading to the rear mufflers. Anything less than an air tight seal will cause problems.

Mike, I am very glad that you and I got to speak today, and I hope to hear from you again soon!

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

Absolutely. We've been informed now that the installer on Mike's car in particular simply folded the vacuum line over on itself, and put a ziptie around it to clamp it. For the benefit of the forum and anyone installing any exhaust system (not just Eisenmann), be sure to create an air tight seal when plugging the vacuum lines leading to the rear mufflers. Anything less than an air tight seal will cause problems.

Mike, I am very glad that you and I got to speak today, and I hope to hear from you again soon!

Whew I was about to have you credit me back for my Eisenmann since there was so much dialogue here about it robbing power!!!!!!! LOL

I kid I kid.... Glad it worked out for the OP.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

Mike,

I am very sorry to hear that you're having trouble with your M5.

I have not seen evidence that any Eisenmann systems for the F10 M5 lose power or torque over the OE exhaust, both in our own testing at AMS, in testing at Eisenmann's facility in Germany, and in independent testing by Eisenmann customers worldwide.

Our own test results can be seen here:

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=49




Were you able to test the M5 before and after the exhaust install to check power output? Any noticeable reduction in performance should have shown itself on a dynamometer, and with a dyno graph in hand we could help you in diagnosing your issue.

One area I would suggest checking is the vacuum line running to the rear mufflers. If the vacuum lines are not plugged during the exhaust installation your M5's performance can be affected significantly. It is possible that these were left hanging and open during the Eisenmann install, and then re-attached to the OE BMW valves when the OE exhaust system was re-installed.

Installers frequently omit installing the vacuum line- so often, in fact, that we have actually moved to attaching warning labels on each exhaust system we ship:

"All Eisenmann systems not using the OE vacuum control system must plug and close the vacuum lines at the rear of the car. Failure to do so will result in reduced power and ECU trouble codes."

Ultimately it is very difficult to say exactly what happened without hard figures or testing. A simple lap around the block does not give us enough data to diagnose the issue.


With regard to tip size and it's effect on power output-

Eisenmann tested each tip size in-house for not only power output but decibel output (as required by the German TUV), and found no difference in power output with the larger 102mm tips. A transition from a smaller pipe in the muffler to a larger pipe at the outlet will not reduce power output, as it will not restrict exhaust flow.

As a thought experiment, picture which exhaust system would create more exhaust restriction- one with 20mm exhaust tips, or one with no exhaust tips at all? The 20mm exhaust tips would create a major restriction in flow, while the system with no tips (or infinitely large ones) would not have an impact on power output.

Exhaust tips are more of a cosmetic finishing item than a contributor to the power output of an exhaust system.



Once again, I am very sorry to hear that you've had trouble at all, whether the trouble was related to the installation of the exhaust or not. We are here to support you in any case, whether you'd like to re-install the Eisenmann system and pursue a solution to the problem you felt, or whether you'd like to simply send the exhaust back for a refund.

I am going to say this hesitantly for now, because there is NEVER room for criticism unless I am 1000% sure of a defect.

First of all, Ilia pretty much rocks because he took so much time in personal discussion with me in an effort to resolve my issue. In fact, that has been the case with EVERY interaction with IND. They are by FAR one of the very best vendors that I have ever dealt with, and that is saying quite a bit as I have dealt with countless vendors in modding my BMWs.

Secondly, I am hoping that we have isolated the issue, with the help of all of you on here who mentioned vacuum lines. I was initially told that my lines were plugged amply until I really dug today and asked SPECIFICALLY how they were plugged. Let's just say that I am not very convinced that the method was at all appropriate to fully seal off any air seepage. At Ilia's advice, I unplugged the vacuum lines from my stock exhaust and drove the car a bit. I immediately noticed a very similar loss of power to what I was experiencing with the Eisenmann. I then re-attached them and my power was regained.

Here is what is happening: Before any validation is made as to the cause I want to be very sure that this is my issue. I am going to have the Eisenmann re-installed and ensure that the lines are plugged properly, with zero room for error. I will then test the car once again. If the issue is fixed then I will be fully satisfied that the vacuum lines were the cause. If this does not fix the issue then I will reinstall the OEM cans and evaluate further.

Thank you to everyone who pointed the potential problem out. This is the value that these boards bring.

Mike

p.s. I owe a humble apology to SANguru for my response. I am definitely good with admitting when I am in error. I'm a bit of a hard head here. As stated, I am not an engineer and as an end user familiar with the quality of feedback on this exhaust prior to making my decision to purchase, I was highly surprised myself to see any drop in performance from an Eisenmann product. My assessment was made solely on my feeling the loss and on the advice of people who I trust to have the expertise.

I will post results. I am VERY MUCH hoping that EVERYONE on my end (myself included) is completely wrong.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by SANguru

My dyno shows gain in torque. Did you dyno it?? BTW, ever heard of adaptation? You take it off and not let the ECU adapt or start right up, of course it will run like crap.

You are not a liar.. just inexperienced

not my car so I don't really care. You can go believe what you want to believe

My apologies. You may in fact be correct about all of this and I may be a complete idiot! Wouldn't be the first time.

Thanks for the input.

Mike

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Vic55

This. I know, it happened to me. I drove away and could not believe that the exhaust did this. Just as its been mentioned that exhaust will not create huge gains; I could not see it causing as much of a power loss as I felt. I drove back and my installer forgot to plug the lines. Boom, instant power return. Ill bet that is what happened here. It was like driving a non boosted turbo car.

EXACTLY what it felt like! And exactly how it felt asd I replicated the situation today with the stock exhaust. Will update asap!

Man, I cannot WAIT until my HREs get here so I can return this to a solid build thread! Never hurts to add a little drama I guess. Keeps it energized!

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by ColdList

EXACTLY what it felt like! And exactly how it felt asd I replicated the situation today with the stock exhaust. Will update asap!

Man, I cannot WAIT until my HREs get here so I can return this to a solid build thread! Never hurts to add a little drama I guess. Keeps it energized!

Me too!!!!!!!!!!

As for the lines, if they are not plugged all your boost leaks out. I remember driving down the road expecting it to downshift (I was in D3) and it just stayed in 3rd gear = boring. Then on the freeway I could barely rock 110 mph and I know there was a boosting issue and the exhaust was somehow related to the boost in regards to the valves.

Eisenmann would be out of business real fast if they took our power away with no reason.

[Poleposition]

Was this installed by your BMW guru mechanic who is in the know or someone else?

[RPiM5]

What a convivial thread this has become again. I am truly elated!

[jmh]

Originally Posted by ColdList

EXACTLY what it felt like! And exactly how it felt asd I replicated the situation today with the stock exhaust. Will update asap!

Man, I cannot WAIT until my HREs get here so I can return this to a solid build thread! Never hurts to add a little drama I guess. Keeps it energized!

Glad things are settling down (I hope) and we can leave the drama behind us.
Sometimes it is not a bad idea to take in some advice from other folks who also
have been around the block
But more important it's great to IND taking care of you and working with you to
get you to the point of a working Eisenman.

[SANguru]

glad it worked out.

Originally Posted by ColdList

My apologies. You may in fact be correct about all of this and I may be a complete idiot! Wouldn't be the first time.

Thanks for the input.

Mike

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by jmh

Glad things are settling down (I hope) and we can leave the drama behind us.
Sometimes it is not a bad idea to take in some advice from other folks who also
have been around the block
But more important it's great to IND taking care of you and working with you to
get you to the point of a working Eisenman.

Yep. I realize that I am new to this board, however, I am not new at all to modding and issues, etc. and discussion boards, and I most certainly realize that I can be incorrect and will always freely admit so. I am not a closed minded individual and always appreciate feedback. Frankly, I let the perceived "tone" of the comment aggravate me-that's all. KEyword there "PERCEIVED" -meaning my false perception. My bad.

Anyway, all good on my end here. Appreciate the feedback.

-Mike

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Poleposition

Was this installed by your BMW guru mechanic who is in the know or someone else?

How about if we keep it "convivial"?

No, in fact, against normal practice I actually allowed the dealer to do it as the car was in the air for the 1200 mile service. Figured even a dealer couldn't screw up a simple exhaust install. Again, I was incorrect. Have a bled enough to avoid further shots? :-)

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by SANguru

glad it worked out.

Thanks again.

[Poleposition]

Originally Posted by ColdList

How about if we keep it "convivial"?

No, in fact, against normal practice I actually allowed the dealer to do it as the car was in the air for the 1200 mile service. Figured even a dealer couldn't screw up a simple exhaust install. Again, I was incorrect. Have a bled enough to avoid further shots? :-)

All good. Looking fwd to seeing your project come to life. I'm in your corner, we're Silverstone buddies.

All the best.