After 6 months of F10 M5 ownership, a revisit to the comparison of owning an E60 M5

[ONEOF40 FS M3]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Dudes,

Ok so I've decided liven up this board a little by revisiting an old topic, but I'll make this short and sweet. This is a quick comparison of the goods and bads, and I am rating these in order from top to bottom, aesthetics aside of course. I have almost 8,000 miles on my F10 M5 now in only owning it for a little less than 6 months, where as I owned my E60 M5 for 3 years and put 57,000 miles on that one. This is just my take on it, others opinions will vary.


Best things about the E60 M5:
1. S85 V10 engine! (with aftermarket exhaust, there's almost no equal to the exhaust note. This is even more true if you do aftermarket headers!)
2. Smaller size of E60
3. Lighter weight of E60
4. SMG Transmission (Almost no other transmission can rattle the fillings out of your teeth like S6 mode can!)
5. Adjustable Side Bolsters
6. Active Side Bolsters
7. The option for comfort seats rather than just sport seats.

Worst things about the E60 M5:
1. S85 V10 engine! (reliability!!!)
2. Reliability of everything else on the car! (It once cost me $1,000 to replace the side view mirror because the motor on it broke! Overall I spent over $40,000 in maintenance and repairs on my old E60, including a brand new engine, and 4 clutches!)
3. Fuel consumption (I once got 6mpg on my E60!)
4. SMG Transmission (reliability!!!)
5. Oil consumption of the S85 V10 (The 10W-60 is expensive, plus it is only really available either at the dealership or online.)
6. Difficulty in getting more horsepower with mods (Unless you get a supercharger your going to spend well over $10 grand in bolt-ons just to make an extra 100hp.)


Best things about the F10 M5:
1. The S63tu V8 engine!!! (Until recently I was almost about to trade my F10 M5 back in for another E60 M5, because to me the most important thing I love about driving a fast BMW is the exhaust note. The stock exhaust sounds good and I put an RPi GT exhaust with no resonators on as soon as I got the car back from Euro Delivery. But, it still did not make me fall in love with the S63tu powerplant, the exhaust note was way too quiet for me. Both of those exhausts did not make me feel like I was driving a race car, like the feeling I always had with the E60 M5. That is until I recently got the NEW RPi GTM exhaust, that includes a FULL 100% muffler delete and is now straight piped from the downpipes to the exhaust tips! The F10 M5 has now transformed from a subtle gentlemens race car, to a full blown ROARING MONSTER!!! The cracks from the exhaust are like EXTREMELY LOUD thunderclaps or bullwhip cracks! It's INSANE! The ROAR OF THE F10 V8 IS ON PAR WITH THE E60 V10 SCREAM!!!! And I haven't even de-catted the downpipes yet!)
2. The Torque!!! (It's a sheer wall, like getting slammed by a tidal wave)
3. The horsepower! (The S63tu is WAY underrated!)
4. Engine Response! (What the hell is this turbo lag all of you non-F10 M5 owners keep talking about?! In Sport+ mode there is NO freaking lag! EVER! What do we have to do to beat this in your non-F10 M5 owners heads?!)
5. Handling! (The chassis and suspension are LIGHT YEARS ahead of the E60 M5. The F10 M5 can turn on a dime despite it's weight, the E60 can't!)
6. Michelin Pilot Super Sport Tires! (AMAZING TIRES!!! They contribute largely to the success of the handling of the such a heavy car. Also the tread life is AMAZING!! I've got almost 8,000 miles on the PSS's already and they are not even half-way worn down yet, and I drove with these same tires on the Nurburgring and do mountain drives almost every other weekend! The tires will probably last another 8 to 10 thousand miles!)
7. Bang & Olufsen Sound System (Hands down one of the best sound systems in a car I have heard in my life. It makes the driving experience that much more special when you are jamming to your favorite tunes!)
8. The technology! (The heads up display is AWESOME! And the new iDrive is SO slick and fast. The Navigatoin system has some very useful awesome features, like real time traffic updates, and I've never had problems with false navigation.)
9. The range! (I'm easily getting over 400 miles on a full tank. I once saw 465 miles on the range computer!)
10. Tunability of the engine (With charcoal filter removal, exhaust, downpipes and tune, one could theoretically easily make over 700hp to the crank).

Worst things about the F10 M5:
1. The Weight
2. The Size
3. Oil Consumption (The S63tu does consume oil almost as bad as the V10, I've already filled the engine up twice. Luckily the 5W-30 oil is way cheaper than the 10W-60, and we can pick up 5W-30 from any Autozone.)
4. Fake Induction Noise pumped through the speakers (Just get an aftermarket exhaust and you won't even care anymore!)
5. No adjustable side bolsters (Have we beat this issue to death enough yet?! Lol!)

That's it!

But like I said in my other review from a while back, neither one of these M5's is better than the other. Each is great in it's own way, and one day I would still like to go back and own a V10 again along with keeping my TTV8.

Let the shoosting, or I mean the discussion begin!

I agree with all the above but...

1. Based on my experience with the e60 M5, four years and 50k miles, it was most reliable car I ever had or at least reliable as most Honda cars I had before and by far the most reliable M with my current e92 M3...and YES I said the most...in those 50K miles I only had to oil changes and the spark plugs as a maintenance item...again that was my experience.

On the other hand my beloved and M fixation e39 M5 was a money pit but it was a more complete car than e60 M5. The F10 M5 is the most complete M5 to date in all aspects of car, and more of what I expect from an M5 to be in comparison with the e60 M5.

2. And regarding oil and fuel consumption, it is what it is all M cars and high performances cars I have owned consumed good quantities both...not sure I would consider that a bad thing myself...

But we all know...there is no free lunch, you pay to play.....
F10 M5 = "Luxury Long Range Jetliner"

E60 M5 = "Regional Jet"

[mainly]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Ok...so you don't like my writing style. I am a pro copywriter and information marketer. Kinda used to highlighting points. And I failed because you clearly did not get my excitement about the car. This is timely because as we were driving home today from my kid's hockey game in my wife's X5, I was thinking about what a nice sunny day it would be to go for a cruise in my F10. It is however in the shop for some custom paint work. Monday if all goes as scheduled it gets it's new BMW performance down pipes and exhaust. I am pretty excited. Not as excited as I was when I roasted a Carerra 4S, a Mustang GT and a C6 Vette all in the same week (last week). I have way (I would capitalize the word "way" but I don't want you to read it as all gangster again) more fun in my F10 than my E60. It handles better, accelerates faster and with a ton more pull all the way through the power band and it has more luxury. Again, it is subjective but I personally can't even compare the two.

Btw...are you aware that other high end sports at manufacturers are actually piping in engine notes too? BMW just happens to be the only one who chooses to be transparent about it. Funny how people jump on the bandwagon and laugh at BMW and start calling it ridiculous and fake but then change their own tune when they discover the commonality with other elite manufacturers.

So, in short...I do find the car exciting. "GeT iT"?

i dont mind the active sound. its the sound, period that is less than spectacular.
it seems to me the design philosophy just did a 180 with the f10 m5...

the delay, albeit slight, in throttle response, mutted exhaust, artificial steering settings, lower rpm redline, and less brutal, more refined transmission, all seem to make the car feel less "connected" to the driver. obviously the f10 is quicker to 60, and 1/4 mile. but they took away all the things that gave the car "soul" to accomplish this.

this is what bugs me. i love the improved luxury and updated design of the car. but these things go without saying, you "expect" these things. i just i dont see why they had to make the car bigger/heavier to acomplish this.


Btw, i dont know how many of you have checked out the new 991 carrera s, but i have yet to hear one negative comment on the exhaust, engine, handling, or anything for that matter.

they took the existing 911, made it about 90 lbs "lighter", faster, and "kept" the things that made it great, actually they enhanced them. i think in this respect they stayed true to the philosophy of porsche, much more than ///M did to theirs.

no, i dont expect an m5 to lose 1000 lbs and become a 911, but it just seems BMW went completely in the opposite direction altogether.

[RPiM5]

For all you WWII buffs out there:

E60 M5 = Pzkpfw VI Tiger I Tank

F10 M5 = Pzkpfw V Panther Tank

While the Tiger I was feared by many of its opponents, it was over-engineered, used expensive and labour intensive materials and production methods, and was time-consuming to produce. Only 1,347 were built between August 1942 and August 1944. The Tiger was prone to certain types of track failures and immobilizations, and limited in range by its huge fuel consumption. It was, however, generally mechanically reliable but expensive to maintain. It had the best tank gun of the entire war, the 88, which was essentially the same 88 anti-aircraft gun that could take out a tank from almost 15,000 meters.

Doesn't this sound like another German vehicle that has a V10?! Lol!

----------------------------

The Panther Tank had better frontal armor (including the benefit of a sloping angle, increasing effective armor depth), better gun penetration, was lighter and thus faster, and could handle rough terrain better than the Tigers. The tradeoff was weaker side armor. The Panther proved to be deadly in open country and shooting from long range, but vulnerable to close-quarters combat.

The F10 is a much more advanced design with sloping frontal armor to withstand fire from GTR's. Haha! :P

In the end though, both tanks proved to be extremely deadly weapons that outclassed their Allied and Soviet counterparts throughout the war. The same is still true with both M5's.

[W///]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Have you adjusted the settings on he car properly? Lots of people had this same feedback until they figured out how counter-intuitive it seemed after coming out of an E60. Inclination was to set everything similarly and that is incorrect.

There are also a few others where this is discussed. Changes the entire car. You couldn't give me 10 E60s for my F10 now. COMPLETELY more advanced car. Not just a step. A HUGE leap to me. I have massive performance and some very nice luxury. The technological advancements are just crazy. Power, torque, steering, comfort...all there. Really, it is not a fair comparison. You need to compare more to a late model AMG or something similar. It is THAT much of a different car to me. That does not mean that others cannot prefer the E60. It would just be hard to understand. Mostly I would have to attribute to non-familiarity with the vehicle.

It would be very hard to imagine any of the people who say "the E39 is the greatest of all time" or "my E60 is a much better and cooler car" being offered an F10 in place of theirs and actually turning it down. People "say" things and that is fine but let's be real here-the new cars are "new" for a reason. They get better. This time they got a LOT better (of course that is my SUBJECTIVE opinion :-). Not everyone likes ALL of the changes but I surmise that a large majority F10 owners like MOST of them.

Not sure why it's hard for you to understand why the E39 is one of the best of all time. I think a very relevant comparison would be the 993 Turbo vs the 997 Turbo. There's no doubt the 993 will go down as the classic and IMHO, those were the blueprints.

Having said that, if you told me to pick between a 997 and 993, I'd go with a 997, just like I'd go with an F10 (if money was no object). But you see my point here I hope.

Originally Posted by ONEOF40 FS M3

I agree with all the above but...

1. Based on my experience with the e60 M5, four years and 50k miles, it was most reliable car I ever had or at least reliable as most Honda cars I had before and by far the most reliable M with my current e92 M3...and YES I said the most...in those 50K miles I only had to oil changes and the spark plugs as a maintenance item...again that was my experience.

On the other hand my beloved and M fixation e39 M5 was a money pit but it was a more complete car than e60 M5. The F10 M5 is the most complete M5 to date in all aspects of car, and more of what I expect from an M5 to be in comparison with the e60 M5.

2. And regarding oil and fuel consumption, it is what it is all M cars and high performances cars I have owned consumed good quantities both...not sure I would consider that a bad thing myself...

But we all know...there is no free lunch, you pay to play.....
F10 M5 = "Luxury Long Range Jetliner"

E60 M5 = "Regional Jet"

Surprisingly, my car has comsumed no oil since I've changed it 6k miles ago. Having said that, my car has 60k miles on it, so it's well broken in. And I use Liqui Moly (not to start an oil thread haha)

Originally Posted by mainly

i dont mind the active sound. its the sound, period that is less than spectacular.
it seems to me the design philosophy just did a 180 with the f10 m5...

the delay, albeit slight, in throttle response, mutted exhaust, artificial steering settings, lower rpm redline, and less brutal, more refined transmission, all seem to make the car feel less "connected" to the driver. obviously the f10 is quicker to 60, and 1/4 mile. but they took away all the things that gave the car "soul" to accomplish this.

this is what bugs me. i love the improved luxury and updated design of the car. but these things go without saying, you "expect" these things. i just i dont see why they had to make the car bigger/heavier to acomplish this.


Btw, i dont know how many of you have checked out the new 991 carrera s, but i have yet to hear one negative comment on the exhaust, engine, handling, or anything for that matter.

they took the existing 911, made it about 90 lbs "lighter", faster, and "kept" the things that made it great, actually they enhanced them. i think in this respect they stayed true to the philosophy of porsche, much more than ///M did to theirs.

no, i dont expect an m5 to lose 1000 lbs and become a 911, but it just seems BMW went completely in the opposite direction altogether.

You have to realize the car started out as an F10. In terms of size, what can M do? Nothing.

That's the problem. People want more comfortable, spacious, insulated (road noise + windnoise). Those are completely relevant on a regular F10. The same cannot be said about the 911.

And that's why there are going to be smaller cars available as the lineup changes.

[Bimmer6]

I would like to know how many M5 owners actually track their cars? I wanted a fast luxury car, and being my 6th BMW this was the best option. I love the car, and wouldn't change a thing except time to drive it more(:

Not sure I would want some loud car driving down the street drawing attention to myself. Now that's why it would be nice to have a 911, or lambo parked in the garage which is next years toy pending the economy. I see most of the comments on M5's don't even own the car nor have driven the darn thing? All the owners I have met love the car, and forums are opinions I understand, but try to have an opinion your informed about. Price point was not an object for me, and I do believe for me this was the best all around performer with good looks! Just my two cents, and too many haters(:

[DMC126]

Originally Posted by W///

You have to realize the car started out as an F10. In terms of size, what can M do? Nothing. That's the problem. People want more comfortable, spacious, insulated (road noise + windnoise).

Amen!

The BMW M5 is a high performance, luxury sedan.

The M5 has always had "sports car like" performance but it has never been a sports car. A sports car being defined as a production car designed for speed, high acceleration, and maneuverability, having a low body and usually adequate seating for only two persons; a small, usually two seat, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling. Sports cars may be spartan or luxurious but high maneuverability and minimum weight are requisite.

The M5 has always been based on the current model BMW 5 series. There will always be baked in limitations on what the M Division can produce based on this philosophy. The costs (and subsequent sales price) to build a purpose built standalone M5 would be prohibitive. It would be highly unlikely that such a vehicle would receive BMW Corporate approval. As a frame of reference, the last high performance sports car built by BMW was the E52 Z8. There were a total of 5,703 Z8s built between 2002 and 2006. The production for the US was 2,382 units with an MSRP of $128,000. I would hazard a guess that the sales price of a "purpose built M5" would be well north of $175,000 with production numbers in the range of no more than 4,000, over a typical model run. Compared to model runs of plus 20,000 for the E39 and E60 M5s.

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

I would like to know how many M5 owners actually track their cars? I wanted a fast luxury car, and being my 6th BMW this was the best option. I love the car, and wouldn't change a thing except time to drive it more(:

Not sure I would want some loud car driving down the street drawing attention to myself. I see most of the comments on M5's don't even own the car nor have driven the darn thing? All the owners I have met love the car, and forums are opinions I understand, but try to have an opinion your informed about. Price point was not an object for me, and I do believe for me this was the best all around performer with good looks! Just my two cents, and too many haters(:

Amen, again!

[Raman335i]

Holy sh...

Originally Posted by Tylerstar

Watch this!

[ONEOF40 FS M3]

Originally Posted by DMC126

Amen!

The BMW M5 is a high performance, luxury sedan.

The M5 has always had "sports car like" performance but it has never been a sports car. A sports car being defined as a production car designed for speed, high acceleration, and maneuverability, having a low body and usually adequate seating for only two persons; a small, usually two seat, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling. Sports cars may be spartan or luxurious but high maneuverability and minimum weight are requisite.

The M5 has always been based on the current model BMW 5 series. There will always be baked in limitations on what the M Division can produce based on this philosophy. The costs (and subsequent sales price) to build a purpose built standalone M5 would be prohibitive. It would be highly unlikely that such a vehicle would receive BMW Corporate approval. As a frame of reference, the last high performance sports car built by BMW was the E52 Z8. There were a total of 5,703 Z8s built between 2002 and 2006. The production for the US was 2,382 units with an MSRP of $128,000. I would hazard a guess that the sales price of a "purpose built M5" would be well north of $175,000 with production numbers in the range of no more than 4,000, over a typical model run. Compared to model runs of plus 20,000 for the E39 and E60 M5s.



Amen, again!

EXACTLY!!!

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

I would like to know how many M5 owners actually track their cars? I wanted a fast luxury car, and being my 6th BMW this was the best option. I love the car, and wouldn't change a thing except time to drive it more(:

Not sure I would want some loud car driving down the street drawing attention to myself. Now that's why it would be nice to have a 911, or lambo parked in the garage which is next years toy pending the economy. I see most of the comments on M5's don't even own the car nor have driven the darn thing? All the owners I have met love the car, and forums are opinions I understand, but try to have an opinion your informed about. Price point was not an object for me, and I do believe for me this was the best all around performer with good looks! Just my two cents, and too many haters(:

Wish I could +ZILLION this Henry :-)

[RPiM5]

Here's another reason why the F10 M5 is badass! I took this shot today. Pure sexiness!

[ColdList]

Awesome pic!

[Bimmer6]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Wish I could +ZILLION this Henry :-)

You can bro! Too many haters out there.

[RPiM5]

Then again. The sound of the V10 makes me want to forget everything go get one again! Man I miss it!

[Rob///M5]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Then again. The sound of the V10 makes me want to forget everything go get one again! Man I miss it!

Ahhhhhh....that SOUND!! God I miss it too

[RPiM5]

The F10 M5 may not be able to scream like the E60 M5 but it sure likes to roar! I can't speak for everyone but for me the RPi GTM makes owning the F10 M5 every bit as much fun as the E60 M5 by the notes of the exhausts only.

Here's a small video I shot yesterday with my GoPro. The sound was only recorded from the GoPro's standard onboard microphone. I didn't have my High Definition microphone with me yesterday. It still doesn't do the true sound justice, but it gives a better idea of how it sounds cruising around city streets. I was mostly just keeping it in 1st gear through the city then I revved it out on the highway. More to come!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

The F10 M5 may not be able to scream like the E60 M5 but it sure likes to roar! I can't speak for everyone but for me the RPi GTM makes owning the F10 M5 every bit as much fun as the E60 M5 by the notes of the exhausts only.

Here's a small video I shot yesterday with my GoPro. The sound was only recorded from the GoPro's standard onboard microphone. I didn't have my High Definition microphone with me yesterday. It still doesn't do the true sound justice, but it gives a better idea of how it sounds cruising around city streets. I was mostly just keeping it in 1st gear through the city then I revved it out on the highway. More to come!

That sounds seriously awesome!!! For me there is something about that bassy F10 M5 burble that is seriously enjoyable. Fortunately it doesn't have that V8 rumble due to the crossflow exhaust manifolds but a more racy edge to it. Just listen to the difference between a 550i with exhaust and a M5 with exhaust on it and you'll notice the difference

[johnbmw6]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

I actually agree with you. As I have said before, stock for stock the F10 M5 has a better exhaust note. It's just the fake induction noise that gets pumped into the cabin that most people have a beef with, and I don't blame them. Also ever since I straight-piped my M5, I'm like what fake sound through the speakers are you referring to?! I hear nothing but the exhaust now!

Hi whats the Miles per gallon like with just out of town drivng please?.
I am getting the M5 for just longer distance driving , many thanks John

[WULFFZA]

Dude, made it to the "big time" blogs

http://www.autospies.com/news/The-MO...New-F10-74903/

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by WULFFZA

Dude, made it to the "big time" blogs

http://www.autospies.com/news/The-MO...New-F10-74903/

Radical!