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      09-26-2012, 12:49 PM   #23
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man that's impressive...
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      09-26-2012, 01:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Power_Fan View Post
this car has enough power...you should start thinking about tuning the brakes not the engine...
+1 i agree. this car is clearly a beast you now need to start looking at putting mods on other areas of the car
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      09-26-2012, 07:41 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin@Alpine
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Originally Posted by M_Power_Fan View Post
this car has enough power...you should start thinking about tuning the brakes not the engine...
+1 i agree. this car is clearly a beast you now need to start looking at putting mods on other areas of the car
Have you seen the sheer size of the discs and calipers in the flesh? They are larger than most cars alloy wheels!

This car is certainly one for the wish list, great work
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      03-02-2013, 04:04 PM   #26
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Compared to this dyno (also done on a MAHA dyno) the numbers are odd:



The "Supersprint car" achieves 500whp and the "PP car" achieves 475whp. The car with only an exhaust makes 25 more whp than the PP car.

The outside temperature is at around 30 degrees on both cars, but the intake air temperature is 25 degrees on the Supersprint car and a whopping 72 degrees on the PP car. Indicating that the temp. sensor is either placed at different locations or that there has been terrible heat soak on the PP car... (see my previous post about the importance of temp etc when calculating crank horsepower on a dyno).

Corrected crank horsepower for the Supersprint car is 604hp (from 500whp)
Corrected crank horsepower for the PP car is 640hp (from 475whp)

The PP car apparently makes 40 more hp at the crank from 25 less hp at the rear wheels... (the reason for the high hp number on the PP car being the correction factors being so high due to the extremely high intake air temperature).

If I was doing a dyno run I would not have done it with a intake air temperature of 72 degrees (indicating a very inefficient intercooler or heat soak). The Supersprint dyno plot actually indicates a really efficient intercooler as the intake air temperature is lower than the outside air temp.

Would be interesting to hear why the intake air temperature was so high on the PP dyno and why it was so much higher on the tuned run than what it was on the baseline run. If the tune makes the intake air temperature rise that much (due to higher boost and more heat build from the turbos) then you loose any gain from the tune by the high intake air temperature. Meaning that you will not get more than 475whp when the Supersprint car gets 500whp...
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      03-02-2013, 06:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m-ch View Post
manhart racing has aswell 640 hp and dähler aswell.
over her in germany rumors says that this tuning steps (available so far) ar all prefactory datas, and that the tuners do have all problems to crack the software data sofar of the m5f10 engine by there own.
Kelleners, acschnitzer etc are all around 620-640hp, manhart racing told me they should be ready with a 730 hp step next spring 2013 (reenforced,rear axel, reenforced transmession as well..)

It is obvious that the x5/6m engine is over 700ph, but the better/newer m5 f10 engine wasnt able to crak for this power output...
Very curious who will be the first one with a serious tune over the 700hp...
Manhart, Schnitzer,PP-all running exact same ECU tune. Not a custom in house tune. No one has one. They come form the same source. I have the EXACT tune, downpipes and exhaust on my car. Car is ridiculously fast. Will leave a stock M5 in the dust. Greatest challenge is launch.
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      03-02-2013, 06:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Manhart, Schnitzer,PP-all running exact same ECU tune. Not a custom in house tune. No one has one. They come form the same source. I have the EXACT tune, downpipes and exhaust on my car. Car is ridiculously fast. Will leave a stock M5 in the dust. Greatest challenge is launch.
Do you have any source for this info? Hartge does a piggyback/stand alone ECU and others do a remap. Obviously different approaches between some tuners...

Hartge is the only tuner that I know of that has done back to back acceleration runs with a proven reduction in time between speeds (the vids are on Youtube).



And why isn't the PP cars trap speed at the 1/4-mile faster than the std. M5?
And why is the PP car 25hp down on the Supersprint car (at the rear wheels)?


(trap speed is a good indicator of power gain whereas ET is a good indicator of launch and grip at the start)

Last edited by Boss330; 03-02-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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      03-03-2013, 11:39 AM   #29
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ECU questions

Coldlist - I am guessing that this means that all of the performance shops are are purchasing a license the sell/install the same tune. Is this a correct assumption or are they buying a license to buy a tune that is exactly limited to certain parameters which will then limit the performance and HP rating to approximately the same results?
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      03-03-2013, 11:58 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Manhart, Schnitzer,PP-all running exact same ECU tune. Not a custom in house tune. No one has one. They come form the same source. I have the EXACT tune, downpipes and exhaust on my car. Car is ridiculously fast. Will leave a stock M5 in the dust. Greatest challenge is launch.
Do you have any source for this info? Hartge does a piggyback/stand alone ECU and others do a remap. Obviously different approaches between some tuners...

Hartge is the only tuner that I know of that has done back to back acceleration runs with a proven reduction in time between speeds (the vids are on Youtube).



And why isn't the PP cars trap speed at the 1/4-mile faster than the std. M5?
And why is the PP car 25hp down on the Supersprint car (at the rear wheels)?


(trap speed is a good indicator of power gain whereas ET is a good indicator of launch and grip at the start)
Hartge doesn't actually tune anything. Their primary business is wheels. Check the lasting results of that piggyback and what happened. I should have not replied to this thread. This creates arguments. It is the truth about the tune. Honestly I am leaving it at that. It can be verified if you investigate it.
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      03-03-2013, 02:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Hartge doesn't actually tune anything. Their primary business is wheels. Check the lasting results of that piggyback and what happened. I should have not replied to this thread. This creates arguments. It is the truth about the tune. Honestly I am leaving it at that. It can be verified if you investigate it.
I'm not going to argue on the tuning base for the Hartge F10 M5 other than just say that their car is awesome and seems to be quick

However I believe you forget Hartge's history with cars like the E30 H35 24V cars etc. Hartge is also classed as a manufacturer in Germany and have their own VIN numbers stamped on the cars. So I believe they are more than just wheels...
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      03-03-2013, 05:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Hartge doesn't actually tune anything. Their primary business is wheels. Check the lasting results of that piggyback and what happened. I should have not replied to this thread. This creates arguments. It is the truth about the tune. Honestly I am leaving it at that. It can be verified if you investigate it.
I'm not going to argue on the tuning base for the Hartge F10 M5 other than just say that their car is awesome and seems to be quick

However I believe you forget Hartge's history with cars like the E30 H35 24V cars etc. Hartge is also classed as a manufacturer in Germany and have their own VIN numbers stamped on the cars. So I believe they are more than just wheels...
I know what they are and know their cars. They are primarily a wheels company. If you want a legitimate tune on an F10 get the PP Performance tune. When there is an F10 running the Hartge Piggy back tune for a decent length of time with no issues with the DME reverting to stock or shutting the car down then we will know. Right now I know no one who has one. I also cannot seem to find the Hartge tune actually offered for sale. I truly can only speak tot he tune that is on my car and of it's actual performance. I literally have a hard time keeping the tires down. It spins pretty much at will. Acceleration is far greater than it was in stock form. Be careful believing Dynos as discussed in prior threads ad nauseam. And we know trap speeds vary highly as well. On that note I guess I cannot verify first hand that they do not do their engine tune in-house but I find it highly unlikely. Would love to see proof of this somewhere and to also see the tune on someone's F10 M% and running for $3K miles or so without issue. My intent is not to be negative. There have been some attempts at piggybacks and they have not worked out. I just saw one "visible" tuner on here making claims about gains on the "tune" and then showing the car on the Dyno with the hood up. One of the most basic things you CANNOT do when performing a Dyno on an F10 M5. I can't imagine any of the precise processes for logging and comparing to tables were truly followed if they can't even remember the simplest thing like closing the hood. This is a different and very smart car. Gotta do things correctly or the DME will outsmart you.
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Last edited by ColdList; 03-03-2013 at 07:33 PM.
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      03-04-2013, 11:28 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
I know what they are and know their cars. They are primarily a wheels company. If you want a legitimate tune on an F10 get the PP Performance tune. When there is an F10 running the Hartge Piggy back tune for a decent length of time with no issues with the DME reverting to stock or shutting the car down then we will know. Right now I know no one who has one. I also cannot seem to find the Hartge tune actually offered for sale. I truly can only speak tot he tune that is on my car and of it's actual performance. I literally have a hard time keeping the tires down. It spins pretty much at will. Acceleration is far greater than it was in stock form. Be careful believing Dynos as discussed in prior threads ad nauseam. And we know trap speeds vary highly as well. On that note I guess I cannot verify first hand that they do not do their engine tune in-house but I find it highly unlikely. Would love to see proof of this somewhere and to also see the tune on someone's F10 M% and running for $3K miles or so without issue. My intent is not to be negative. There have been some attempts at piggybacks and they have not worked out. I just saw one "visible" tuner on here making claims about gains on the "tune" and then showing the car on the Dyno with the hood up. One of the most basic things you CANNOT do when performing a Dyno on an F10 M5. I can't imagine any of the precise processes for logging and comparing to tables were truly followed if they can't even remember the simplest thing like closing the hood. This is a different and very smart car. Gotta do things correctly or the DME will outsmart you.
What's the reason behind not dynoing the M5 with the hood open (cooling/heat soak?)

Here are Hartge's info on their M5:

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_6571.html
http://www.hartge.de/UploadPDF/F10%2...2011500560.pdf

Order form:
http://www.hartge.de/e/pdf/E_Bestellung.pdf

Their M5 demo car for sale (with 10000km on it):
http://www.hartge.de/UploadPDF/F10%2...2011111111.pdf







Obviously I have no idea if the Hartge car is reliable or if it can go 3000miles without problems, but it seems strange that Hartge is advertising their own M5 with 6200miles on it if it isn't reliable...

Last edited by Boss330; 03-04-2013 at 04:35 PM.
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      03-04-2013, 06:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
What's the reason behind not dynoing the M5 with the hood open (cooling/heat soak?)

Here are Hartge's info on their M5:

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_6571.html
http://www.hartge.de/UploadPDF/F10%2...2011500560.pdf

Order form:
http://www.hartge.de/e/pdf/E_Bestellung.pdf

Their M5 demo car for sale (with 10000km on it):
http://www.hartge.de/UploadPDF/F10%2...2011111111.pdf







Obviously I have no idea if the Hartge car is reliable or if it can go 3000miles without problems, but it seems strange that Hartge is advertising their own M5 with 6200miles on it if it isn't reliable...
Agreed. That would be very odd. This is interesting for sure. I had "HEARD" (disclaimer here: I do not know this as FACT and you should do your own investigating and form your own opinion on anything I write and not ever take my word for anything :-) that Hartge used a piggyback and it did have this increase in power and that one subsequent runs it lost power and gradually shut the car down after 10 hours. The DME shut it down. Now agian, this is what I HEARD and I have no idea if it has any truth behind it. I wold be very interested to see a Hartge piggyback on a car over her ein the US and have feedback form the owner.

As far as the Dyno on the F10. The freaking manual is literally 26 pages. :-) I am no engineer so I cannot speak to why you have to do things like have the hood closed but I know the car has very specific parameters that must be followed and precise logging that needs to be done and compared to certain tables. For one thing if the wheels are moving fast enough to represent 150 mph then the wind has to be detected as flowing at 150 mph into the intakes (true 1:1) or the DME plays tricks. Also the gear must be true 1:1 (which means 5th gear and the US cars cannot actually do that due to the limiter.) Again, I am no expert. I don't know how the car works beyond a lot of discussions with people who do know when I was doing the research for my own knowledge after seeing my DME doing strange things during some actual logging. It all seemed to line right up with what I was hearing.
Would be very cool to get some real world feedback on the Hartge from an end user. btw..I think they were reporting 4.2 second 0-62. Not entirely faster than stock no? I thought that was weird.

Last edited by ColdList; 03-05-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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      03-05-2013, 11:43 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Agreed. That would be very odd. This is interesting for sure. I had "HEARD" (disclaimer here: I do not know this as FACT and you should do your own investigating and form your own opinion on anything I write and not ever take my word for anything :-) that Hartge used a piggyback and it did have this increase in power and that one subsequent runs it lost power and gradually shut the car down after 10 hours. The DME shut it down. Now agian, this is what I HEARD and I have no idea if it has any truth behind it. I wold be very interested to see a Hartge piggyback on a car over her ein the US and have feedback form the owner.

As far as the Dyno on the F10. The freaking manual is literally 2 pages. :-) I am no engineer so I cannot speak to why you have to do things like have the hood closed but I know the car has very specific parameters that must be followed and precise logging that needs to be done and compared to certain tables. For one thing if the wheels are moving fast enough to represent 150 mph then the wind has to be detected as flowing at 150 mph into the intakes (true 1:1) or the DME plays tricks. Also the gear must be true 1:1 (which means 5th gear and the US cars cannot actually do that due to the limiter.) Again, I am no expert. I don't know how the car works beyond a lot of discussions with people who do know when I was doing the research for my own knowledge after seeing my DME doing strange things during some actual logging. It all seemed to line right up with what I was hearing.
Would be very cool to get some real world feedback on the Hartge form an end user. btw..I think they were reporting 4.2 second 0-62. Not entirely faster than stock no? I thought that was weird.
I agree that a real world customer experience should be interesting to hear about all of the different tuner claims.

The 0-62 is very difficult to better signifiantly without increasing grip as well. The stock M5 is struggling for grip and could do a lot quicker on slicks/semi slicks. The increased power is better indicated in the 80-200km/h runs or in the trap speed on a quarter mile run. Like the quarter mile run that was reported for one tuned car here that did not have a higher trap speed than a std M5... You can get a better launch and hence a better ET with better tires, but the trap speed indicates if you got more hp.

I guess Gustav of M5Board/GTBoard might know more about the Hartge tune and any issues with it.
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      03-05-2013, 02:13 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I agree that a real world customer experience should be interesting to hear about all of the different tuner claims.

The 0-62 is very difficult to better signifiantly without increasing grip as well. The stock M5 is struggling for grip and could do a lot quicker on slicks/semi slicks. The increased power is better indicated in the 80-200km/h runs or in the trap speed on a quarter mile run. Like the quarter mile run that was reported for one tuned car here that did not have a higher trap speed than a std M5... You can get a better launch and hence a better ET with better tires, but the trap speed indicates if you got more hp.

I guess Gustav of M5Board/GTBoard might know more about the Hartge tune and any issues with it.
Agreed on all points.

lol! I meant to say the manual on the Dyno is 26 pages, not 2 :-)
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      03-05-2013, 04:54 PM   #37
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      03-06-2013, 01:53 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Manhart, Schnitzer,PP-all running exact same ECU tune. Not a custom in house tune. No one has one. They come form the same source. I have the EXACT tune, downpipes and exhaust on my car. Car is ridiculously fast. Will leave a stock M5 in the dust. Greatest challenge is launch.
Here is Manhart's latest dyno results:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/f10...s-645rwhp.html

It has a power increase of 122 more RWHP than the same car when stock.

I've not seen anyone else come close to this yet, guess they have a different tune than the others. Or does your car also make roughly the same RWHP? (not being sarcastic or anything here, just curious )
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      03-06-2013, 08:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Here is Manhart's latest dyno results:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/f10...s-645rwhp.html

It has a power increase of 122 more RWHP than the same car when stock.

I've not seen anyone else come close to this yet, guess they have a different tune than the others. Or does your car also make roughly the same RWHP? (not being sarcastic or anything here, just curious )
No prob. I have the same tune and Downpipes. I have actually had this discussion with Franz Simon over at Manhart personally. Not sure if their Stage 4 involves turbo upgrades, etc. website does not say.

Last edited by ColdList; 03-06-2013 at 09:45 PM.
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