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      10-13-2013, 09:08 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post

Pretty sure BMW HQ knows how to detect that a piggyback has been on the car, if they want to find out... (like in a warranty claim case)

That was kind of my point!!
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      10-13-2013, 10:14 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5 TT View Post
That was kind of my point!!
I know, was just trying to elaborate on the same point. Wasn't saying you said it couldn't be detected
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      10-13-2013, 10:35 AM   #47
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I guess it's only really relevant if the warranty claim is large or not and how keen they are to find any tampering. I suppose at the end of the day it depends how well you get on with your dealer and how brave you feel?
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      10-13-2013, 11:39 AM   #48
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Not sure how it works in the US, but normally larger warranty claims involving engine, transmission etc has to go to HQ/factory for final decissions... Smaller claims like a faulty switch etc is handled by the dealer (AFAIK).

I think that would be the problem, it's not up to the dealer to decide if your engine/trans failure is covered under warranty. They have to relay all info to BMW HQ, or have HQ look into the electronic logs etc. I know that on my car there was a problem with the electronics that the local dealer couldn't figure out. They transferred all of the data to the factory in Germany who found out it was a loose wire...

Since warranties are covered by BMW and not the dealer, it's understandable that BMW HQ wants to make sure that if they pay for a new engine. or similar, then it's because of it being their fault. Not some aftermarket tune... They would rather check that for themselves than have a "friendly" dealer decide that BMW has to pay. After all, your service manager and dealership doesn't have to cover the warranty claim. Meaning that it might be easier for them to let BMW take the bill instead of risk loosing a customer that's not happy with their decision.

That's also how the AC Schnitzer warranty works, BMW covers any warranty claim that is not related to the tune. Any failure related to the tune is AC Schnitzer's responsibility.

Last edited by Boss330; 10-13-2013 at 11:45 AM.
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      10-13-2013, 03:20 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindlessmark07 View Post
+1....I own my car outright and I am willing to take the risk.
I buy all my cars outright, but I wouldn't take the risk. It's a >$40k expense to replace an M5 engine and that's just the parts.

Yeah it wouldn't hurt me to pay that, but it would piss me off a lot - it's just not a good use of money. It's like car insurance - I have enough cash in the bank to pay for any claims including injury claims, but I'd rather not self insure.
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      10-13-2013, 04:02 PM   #50
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Been running my Manhart M5 (MH5S) now for over 10,000 miles. Not a single issue with my 660 RWHP so far. But I also have warranty.
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      10-13-2013, 04:28 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh View Post
Not all information is stored on the key fob. Only service relevant data
However the car will log plenty of data BMW HQ can retrieve if need arises.
The dealer does NOT have access to this data and can't intercept or read it
BMW HQ for example has used the data to verify abuse after bend valves, burned clutches etc...
So bottom line is anyone who puts any kind of tune on their cars (sw, piggy back, paper clip , whatever)
has to understand they MAY have to cover costs for repairs and loose their warranties (if it's a lease car BMW can even possibly have you buy out the car as you breached the lease agreement)
my dealer can pull down loads of data logged in the car, top speed, max revs, engine run time, number of gear changes and a load of other stuff. Give you can get RPM on the iPhone app now!
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      10-14-2013, 03:37 AM   #52
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My modding route on this car assuming tuner can figure the ECU out. Catless downpipes, club sport manifolds, and E85.

Also need better brakes for stopping power..
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Last edited by AlphaAlpineM6; 10-15-2013 at 11:38 PM.
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      10-14-2013, 05:03 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaAlpineM6
My modding route on this car assuming tuner can figure the ECU out. Catless downpipes, cup sport manifolds, and E85. Also need better brakes for stopping power..
Please don't downgrade the brakes , you won't find a better front caliper . If you are talking about track use , just get some more aggressive pads .
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      10-14-2013, 09:14 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie F10M View Post
I am curious why you think the car needs a tune. Don't you think it has enough power at the moment ?
I do love this statement. Have you ever had a good tune on one of your cars?

On a turbo car it adds massive gains. Especially in mid range. With this attitude I'm surprised you didn't just go for a 550i

If you going to tune, then ensure you are doing it with a reputable tuner and also that the speed governor and rev limiter are left untouched.

BMW have no other way of detecting the tune without those parameters being exceeded.

I did this on my last ESS supercharged E90 and when the car went in for quality inspection when everything was bolted off, they found nothing and it passed with flying colors

Once you exceed the speed limited or rev limiter you can never erase without replacing the instrument cluster as well as clearing all other DME's

Going over the governed 250 KPH and the factory RPM seems stupid anyway
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      10-14-2013, 10:08 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
I do love this statement. Have you ever had a good tune on one of your cars?

On a turbo car it adds massive gains. Especially in mid range. With this attitude I'm surprised you didn't just go for a 550i

If you going to tune, then ensure you are doing it with a reputable tuner and also that the speed governor and rev limiter are left untouched.

BMW have no other way of detecting the tune without those parameters being exceeded.

I did this on my last ESS supercharged E90 and when the car went in for quality inspection when everything was bolted off, they found nothing and it passed with flying colors

Once you exceed the speed limited or rev limiter you can never erase without replacing the instrument cluster as well as clearing all other DME's

Going over the governed 250 KPH and the factory RPM seems stupid anyway
There is a BIG difference between a service and a warranty claim. At a service, the info available to the technician will not tell him if there has been a tune present (in the case of a piggyback). If you have had a ECU flash and reflashed back to std. software, all they can see is that at a certain time there was a bunch of fault codes created. If you have a fault code eraser you can avoid that as well.

But, what they look at during a service is just scratching the surface of what the DME have logged. The dealership won't normally have access to read and/or analyze that info however, and in a normal service situation don't need to anyway.

But for a warranty claim involving, say, a engine replacement the dealership will have to turn to BMW HQ for a decision on whether this is a failure covered under warranty or if it's due to driver abuse/non-original software etc. That will be a MUCH more in-depth dive into the DME and engine than they do at a service.

In fact, it would be rather stupid of any manufacturer not to create some sort of logging that will help them decide if someone has tuned their car. Otherwise they would risk having to cover failures that some wonky aftermarket tune might have caused...
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      10-14-2013, 09:57 PM   #56
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Has anyone actually blown one up yet?
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      10-15-2013, 12:58 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
There is a BIG difference between a service and a warranty claim. At a service, the info available to the technician will not tell him if there has been a tune present (in the case of a piggyback). If you have had a ECU flash and reflashed back to std. software, all they can see is that at a certain time there was a bunch of fault codes created. If you have a fault code eraser you can avoid that as well.

But, what they look at during a service is just scratching the surface of what the DME have logged. The dealership won't normally have access to read and/or analyze that info however, and in a normal service situation don't need to anyway.

But for a warranty claim involving, say, a engine replacement the dealership will have to turn to BMW HQ for a decision on whether this is a failure covered under warranty or if it's due to driver abuse/non-original software etc. That will be a MUCH more in-depth dive into the DME and engine than they do at a service.

In fact, it would be rather stupid of any manufacturer not to create some sort of logging that will help them decide if someone has tuned their car. Otherwise they would risk having to cover failures that some wonky aftermarket tune might have caused...
I was a shop foreman for a bmw dealer and I've been in the business for awhile. I can tell you that the info they pull From your car Every time they do a "vehicle test" is amazing. Its called FASTA data. It goes to Germany and also BMW NA head quarters everytime the car is scanned. That info goes in a folder for your VIN and they use it for quality purposes and or to back a warranty refusal. Some of the info cant be used against you technically in a court of law. They wont tell you that unless you bark back.
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      10-15-2013, 07:24 PM   #58
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This is why I like piggybacks.
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      10-15-2013, 11:39 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post

BMW have no other way of detecting the tune without those parameters being exceeded.
This is 110% wrong information. Sorry to call you out dude..
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      10-15-2013, 11:41 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V10lol View Post
I was a shop foreman for a bmw dealer and I've been in the business for awhile. I can tell you that the info they pull From your car Every time they do a "vehicle test" is amazing. Its called FASTA data. It goes to Germany and also BMW NA head quarters everytime the car is scanned. That info goes in a folder for your VIN and they use it for quality purposes and or to back a warranty refusal. Some of the info cant be used against you technically in a court of law. They wont tell you that unless you bark back.
Thank you for this information - good to know your were a former shop foreman!
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      10-16-2013, 02:44 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
This is why I like piggybacks.
?

As has been pointed out previously, the info stored on the ECU will be able to detect that a piggyback has manipulated input/output signals...
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      10-16-2013, 11:39 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
?

As has been pointed out previously, the info stored on the ECU will be able to detect that a piggyback has manipulated input/output signals...
Incorrect. It has been proven before.
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      10-16-2013, 12:32 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
Incorrect. It has been proven before.
Proven? How?

On a warranty claim for a engine replacement?
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      10-16-2013, 12:39 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Proven? How?

On a warranty claim for a engine replacement?
Yes multiple people on here. Search the forum. Also people claiming to work for BMW saying it can not be detected.
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      10-16-2013, 12:54 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
Yes multiple people on here. Search the forum. Also people claiming to work for BMW saying it can not be detected.
wrong forum... maybe on a 3 series... different DME/ECU, different car, non M5
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      10-16-2013, 01:35 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
Yes multiple people on here. Search the forum. Also people claiming to work for BMW saying it can not be detected.
I searched and so far found many posts covering service and minor warranty work, what I'm thinking about is similar to what I found in this post when I searched:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=18

From what I understand there is a big difference between what your local garage can detect and what BMW HQ can detect from the software. And as the former service manager posted above, it seems like a lot of data is downloaded and relayed to BMW.
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