Impressed by the M5, and disappointed by other cars

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by ColdList

And the Carerra would be PERFECT for any sister or one of her friends..maybe my niece-lol!

I REALLY tried so hard to like the C2S and C4S. I flew back in to Atl on an 8:30 flight, stopped home for 30 minutes and went to 2 different Porsche dealers. I drove the crap out of both cars ALL DAY LONG. I just could NOT see what all the excitement was about. I loved the cars but I just had that feeling of the car "holding back". It gave me that "ugh" feeling. I had a SWEET deal worked out on a gorgeous silver/black C2S with the Aero Cup Kit and HRE P40's (dealer installed) and I just could not pull the trigger. They launched incredibly well but what got mine was when I was rolling 35 mph and stomped on the gas there was just NOTHING. My M cars would WALK all over them. I know, I know, the handling...blah blah blah. I think I am a bit like Dave (prob more than either of us car to admit) in that I love the raw power and being thrown into my seat. With the C4S and C2S it just is not there. I don't care what the numbers are 0-60, etc. If I don't FEEL that pull then it is not going to work. In the end one of the sales guys said "You're not a track guy. You are a Turbo guy. You want to blow past everyone". I said "Yep". He took my email address and said he'd let me know when the first Turbo hit. I jumped in my M5, stomped on the gas and got a huge smile on my face as the tires spun and I roared off down the road....

Hahahaha...Like I said, I guess I am one of those "freaks"!

I hear you man.... if its not there its just not there. I am a 3 time Turbo owner and I love this car every bit as much for things that the Turbos (996 and 997s) couldnt provide like sound, chassis response, interior adjustments, etc. This is a true compliment to the 991 chassis that IMHO is leaps ahead of its predecessors and enough for me to enjoy a car with less hp but every much as style and driveability. But yes the Turbos are blazing fast GT cars.

[SANguru]

I recently spent a lot of time on the track (Thunderhill) with my friend's 997 GTS and also a 991 2S PDK. These cars are really not as much about straight line speed but their ability to consistently turn in performance lap after lap at the track where turns are involved. The 991 is very stiff and tame of a chassis. Much more balanced, easier to modulate/trail brake & rotate the chassis to get back on the throttle a lot of faster than my M5 and previous generations of the 911. Both my friends and coach loved the power of my M5 especially with the tune and was amazed at what it can do at 4000+# but cooling is till an issue. After a hard 20min session we got reduced power and a had to do a lot of cool down. Went through the brakes/tires pretty quickly too.

Until you have taken the 991's out to the track, you won't get it and if you are all about freeway bragging rights, forget it but they are great cars.

Originally Posted by Vic55

I hear you man.... if its not there its just not there. I am a 3 time Turbo owner and I love this car every bit as much for things that the Turbos (996 and 997s) couldnt provide like sound, chassis response, interior adjustments, etc. This is a true compliment to the 991 chassis that IMHO is leaps ahead of its predecessors and enough for me to enjoy a car with less hp but every much as style and driveability. But yes the Turbos are blazing fast GT cars.

[nugent]

Originally Posted by SANguru

I recently spent a lot of time on the track (Thunderhill) with my friend's 997 GTS and also a 991 2S PDK. These cars are really not as much about straight line speed but their ability to consistently turn in performance lap after lap at the track where turns are involved. The 991 is very stiff and tame of a chassis. Much more balanced, easier to modulate/trail brake & rotate the chassis to get back on the throttle a lot of faster than my M5 and previous generations of the 911. Both my friends and coach loved the power of my M5 especially with the tune and was amazed at what it can do at 4000+# but cooling is till an issue. After a hard 20min session we got reduced power and a had to do a lot of cool down. Went through the brakes/tires pretty quickly too.

Until you have taken the 991's out to the track, you won't get it and if you are all about freeway bragging rights, forget it but they are great cars.

anything other than time help for cool down? I have 2 track events I will take this car to in the next couple months.

[SANguru]

Originally Posted by nugent

anything other than time help for cool down? I have 2 track events I will take this car to in the next couple months.

Not really... it also depends on how hard you are on your cars, track temp and of course what track.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by ColdList

lol! This was EXACTLY my experience with Porsche. No FUN unless you're really revved. The massive pull in all ranges that the M car delivers really spoils you. I ended up ordering a 2014 F13 M6 (trading my F10) to park next to our F12 convertible.

I'm confused, when did revving out an engine no longer become fun?

[tico12]

For those of you that haven't driven a Porsche, it is obviously quite a different experience than the M5. I not sure why they are even being compared so extensively here as I think they are completely different machines for different markets.

Won't go into all the details of the handling, 0-60, etc as that has been covered more thoroughly than I ever could. There is only one addition to the already extensive list characteristics that I think is VERY noticable. Weight. The first time you open the door of a 911 you begin to understand how purposeful this machine is. If you open the trunk lid(in front) you will again see how important weight savings is in the character of this car. In Sport Plus the reaction of the 991 to your inputs is immediate and seems telepathic. This is noticeably different to the "solid/hefty" feel of the M5.

If what you want is to "blow by" others on the highway, then what was the purpose of comparing a 400hp C4S with a 560hp super- sedan? Yes, the 911 requires you to drive it, but isn't that the point of owning such a special car?

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by tico12

For those of you that haven't driven a Porsche, it is obviously quite a different experience than the M5. I not sure why they are even being compared so extensively here as I think they are completely different machines for different markets.

Won't go into all the details of the handling, 0-60, etc as that has been covered more thoroughly than I ever could. There is only one addition to the already extensive list characteristics that I think is VERY noticable. Weight. The first time you open the door of a 911 you begin to understand how purposeful this machine is. If you open the trunk lid(in front) you will again see how important weight savings is in the character of this car. In Sport Plus the reaction of the 991 to your inputs is immediate and seems telepathic. This is noticeably different to the "solid/hefty" feel of the M5.

If what you want is to "blow by" others on the highway, then what was the purpose of comparing a 400hp C4S with a 560hp super- sedan? Yes, the 911 requires you to drive it, but isn't that the point of owning such a special car?

You totally missed the point. "Driving" the car meaning you are constantly pushing up into high revs to enjoy the feel of torque pull. I prefer to feel the pull of a car. Having to always keep it in high revs to get that gets tiring around town.

On the track it is a different story. Porsche is a superior automobile hands down in that respect.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

I'm confused, when did revving out an engine no longer become fun?

Of course it is fun to rev an engine. Having to keep the car in high rev range ALWAYS to feel the pull is tiring around town. Much like the E60. Get out of that and into an F10 and you feel power without effort in ALL ranges. Both great cars. Different characteristics and superior features.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by SANguru

I recently spent a lot of time on the track (Thunderhill) with my friend's 997 GTS and also a 991 2S PDK. These cars are really not as much about straight line speed but their ability to consistently turn in performance lap after lap at the track where turns are involved. The 991 is very stiff and tame of a chassis. Much more balanced, easier to modulate/trail brake & rotate the chassis to get back on the throttle a lot of faster than my M5 and previous generations of the 911. Both my friends and coach loved the power of my M5 especially with the tune and was amazed at what it can do at 4000+# but cooling is till an issue. After a hard 20min session we got reduced power and a had to do a lot of cool down. Went through the brakes/tires pretty quickly too.

Until you have taken the 991's out to the track, you won't get it and if you are all about freeway bragging rights, forget it but they are great cars.

Yep. Perfect comparison. Porsche is an AMAZING handling car designed for all aspects of performance. The M5/M6 feel like a tank in comparison. Both superior in different situations and for different types of driving. The M is more of a GT car. Porsche is more of a track performer. Neither is better than the other. Deciding on one vs the other is just a matter of matching with your driving habits and preferences.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by ColdList

You totally missed the point. "Driving" the car meaning you are constantly pushing up into high revs to enjoy the feel of torque pull. I prefer to feel the pull of a car. Having to always keep it in high revs to get that gets tiring around town.

On the track it is a different story. Porsche is a superior automobile hands down in that respect.

I like the powertrain to feel like a catapult. Push the throttle and have instant thrust. The Porsche Turbos have that.

That said I test drove a Panamera Turbo today and walked away unimpressed. In base spec it is an appallingly poor car. Reminds me of a 550i. Too quiet, and not engaging. With the Sport Package (Active Suspension, Torque Vectoring, Active Sport Exhaust) the car is much better, but it still feels less engaging than the M5. It doesn't have an edginess about it. Feels to business as usual to drive. With the M5 with the Eisenmann Sport you feel like you're driving a race car.

[mainly]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Of course it is fun to rev am engine. Having to keep the car in high rev range ALWaYs to feel the pull is tiring around town. Much like the E60. Get out of that and into an F10 and you feel power without effort in ALL ranges. I am sure you get it.

without effort?

the f10 only feels powerful in 1st or 2nd gear. once your in 3rd, theres no pull, who are you trying to kid?

do me a favour, go out in your f10, put it 3rd gear at 1500-3000 rpm. and press the gas, and tell me what happens.

ill tell you what happens - nothing.

it has to downshift and get the rev range up to get any pull, just like the e60

the only difference is the e60 sounds alot better doing it.

[Bimmer6]

Vic see what you started(:

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by mainly

without effort?

the f10 only feels powerful in 1st or 2nd gear. once your in 3rd, theres no pull, who are you trying to kid?

do me a favour, go out in your f10, put it 3rd gear at 1500-3000 rpm. and press the gas, and tell me what happens.

ill tell you what happens - nothing.

it has to downshift and get the rev range up to get any pull, just like the e60

the only difference is the e60 sounds alot better doing it.

Wow, what a literal translation. Ok here is a more plain explanation:

In an F10 BMW M5, equipped with twin turbos designed to create flat line torque throughout the power range, you produce more torque more quickly and easily, and at higher overall numbers, than you do in a Porsche 991 C2S or C4S with a smaller displacement normally aspirated motor.

See, now there is no opinion, subjectivity or "trying to kd" anyone whatsoever. Pure fact.

Now, adding a bit of subjectivity (hard to argue incidentally), the "feel" of the torque produced by the F10 M5 is much greater than that of the 991 C2S and C42

Same statements apply to the E60 M5, which produces maximum torque of 336 lb ft at it's highest level.

Once again, all of the above cars have their superior characteristics. Torque happens to go to the F10 M5. Arguing that is just not factual.

Now, the "silliness" written in any of my posts was purely in jest...ie: giving Bimmer6 (Henry) and Vic a little crap in good fun!

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Vic see what you started(:

Dang it Vic!

[ColdList]

And my F10 has pull in 3rd-lol! Sort of got better with DPs!

btw..they all pull in 3rd stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYraIGeY9A0

[mainly]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Same statements apply to the E60 M5, which produces maximum torque of 336 lb ft at it's highest level.

for someone trying to state facts , you're not doing too great.

[RPiM5]

[tico12]

Originally Posted by ColdList

You totally missed the point. "Driving" the car meaning you are constantly pushing up into high revs to enjoy the feel of torque pull. I prefer to feel the pull of a car. Having to always keep it in high revs to get that gets tiring around town.

On the track it is a different story. Porsche is a superior automobile hands down in that respect.

Don't think I missed the point at all...the Pcar is made to be involving/engaging for the driver. It is a thoroughbred racer that's been evolving for 50 years. In Sport+ that thing takes off like a rocket and it likes to driven/revved.

Sure the M5 has an easier/smoother time during acceleration. It has a larger engine with twin-turbos and over 500ft-lb of torque. That's why I don't understand the direct comparison.

Pcar not only better than M5 on a track....try canyon roads or country back-roads and all that M5 torque still won't keep up with C4S.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by mainly

for someone trying to state facts , you're not doing too great.

Having fun with a couple of friends on this. Not sure why you felt the need to engage in negativity but I am not interested in arguing with you. Just not that important.

I do stand corrected at 380 lb ft. Which changes nothing in regards to the accuracy of the point. Nevertheless, there you go. You proved me incorrect. Sleep well.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

Vic see what you started(:

Originally Posted by ColdList

Dang it Vic!

My friends, its a mad world out there; I just want to be able to drive in it.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by tico12

Don't think I missed the point at all...the Pcar is made to be involving/engaging for the driver. It is a thoroughbred racer that's been evolving for 50 years. In Sport+ that thing takes off like a rocket and it likes to driven/revved.

Sure the M5 has an easier/smoother time during acceleration. It has a larger engine with twin-turbos and over 500ft-lb of torque. That's why I don't understand the direct comparison.

Pcar not only better than M5 on a track....try canyon roads or country back-roads and all that M5 torque still won't keep up with C4S.

Never claimed it would keep up with the Porsche on Canyon roads. The Porsche actually should out-accelerate the M5 0-60 in many instances. My point is that if it doesn't pull in ranges where I PERSONALLY drive (non-track, non-canyons, but mostly on city roads) then it is not the CHOICE for me.

I see no problem with comparing ANY cars. I think it is a perfectly acceptable topic of conversation. Many people are interested in hearing the opinions of others in regards to different cars, regardless of HP, torque, weight, etc. I for one am, which is why I got involved in the discussion of such in a thread with a relevant title and content discussing this topic. Many people never have the opportunity that I have (not sure if you have or not, I assume you have because of your knowledge of the car that you are posting, in which case, you are fortunate as well) to ever drive the other cars and may find it useful information and at very worst, entertaining.

"Better" is subjective as well. Porsche handling better in my mind still does not replace the intoxicating feel of the torque that I PERSONALLY enjoy. in day to day driving, I find the Porsche flat by comparison. When the 991 Turbo comes out in December, I will likely purchase one after a test drive to ensure I love it. I am QUITE certain that I will as I LOVE the way that 997 accelerates. It just happens to be the older model and I prefer the chassis and interior appointments of the 991. Again, I don't think either car is any better than the other. It is just about which car suits an individual's needs. Had the Porsche suited mine, I would be driving it. For now, I will stick with a couple of M cars on my garage.

Dang it Vic!!!!!!!!!!!!!-lol!

[Vic55]

My public service is almost done.

Great dialogue between passionate members. I'm fortunate to have both options and love the trade off. Today I spent the whole day in the M6 albeit in some LA traffic. The car delivers.

Tomorrow I will drive the 991 with its bark crack and pop exhaust and enjoy the high revving NA engine. Yes I will miss the torque in the straights as I missed the nimbleness of the 991 today.

I love cars.