Motortrend: Why the F10 M5 May Be Automatic-Only

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Socom

Anything is possible...

Well not really, but for the sake of argument let's say I agree...

but with weight, cost, performance, it's painfully obvious why BMW had to foregoe the DCT with the new M5. That can not be denied.

Oh, and then you totally blew it there anyway. By all means though, don't let the lack of facts keep you from making some up. Reality is, no one knows what it has yet, but evidence presented above seems to point to DCT. Good luck with your prediction though.

[novablackm3]

have any of you guys driven the x5m/x6m? the shifts in S mode are pretty quick. The lag would not be shift speed but a slight turbo lag.

Manuals would have been nice on a NA but on turbo's with paddle shifters auto's work just as well and very smooth

[1BMW4fun]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Unfortunately, you failed to read past the marketing doublespeak, and fully understand that the Mercedes transmission is not a DCT. Please read up on it. It is a traditional automatic transmission with platentary sets and a *single* output shaft. The innovation they've made is to replace the torque converter with a wet clutch pack. The "multi-clutch" hype refers to the typical clutch packs that you will find governing the engagement of the sun/planet carriers in any modern automatic transmission.



I'll let you go ahead and read up on swamp2's threads on this topic on M3Post. He has actually measured the shift time on his M-DCT with data acquisition equipment. It is much-much faster than 100ms.

The tranny you refering to is Mercedes MCT which is an automatic with wet clutch pack in most AMGs, perhaps he meant the Mercedes DCT which is only in the SLS.

[JoeyFiasco]

I always find it interesting when people start screaming "Blasphemy! BMW is not listening to its costumers! We want manuals!" I guess BMW doesn't keep track of its purchase orders or something. People forget that forums are mainly for enthusiasts, not the mainstream. You have to accomodate the mainstream (the bulk of sales) in order to make money. 91% of cars sold in the USA are automatics. Yeah, BMW isn't listening. You can make a great car, with raving reviews and a zealous following but if its not financially successful it will get killed off. /rant

[mkoesel]

Did you see the link in his post? Click on it to reveal which transmission he is talking about.

Speaking of the DCT in the SLS though, that happens to be manufactured by Getrag which the same company that supplies BMW with their DCT transmissions. Notice that it handles the 480ft-lb of the 6.2L AMG V8 just fine. So, they are clearly capable of building DCT transmissions that handle high output, and there is no reason to believe that they can't supply BMW one that will handle the power of the S63 V8 as well.

By the way - I wonder why Mercedes went with the DCT for the SLS if their MCT is offers more than enough shifting performance already? Hmm.

Originally Posted by 1BMW4fun

The tranny you refering to is Mercedes MCT which is an automatic with wet clutch pack in most AMGs, perhaps he meant the Mercedes DCT which is only in the SLS.

[1BMW4fun]

Maybe because they cant configure the MCT to be a rear axle mount like the DCT?

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by ahmed_fawzy

An automatic M5 and M6, what could be worse, first turbocharged then autos they obviously lost their minds.

why not the MDCT in my M3? im confused. M3 is awsome. my next car may have to be a porsche turbo carrara but il still keep the m3 sedan to seat the 5

[ViperJPB]

Honestly, why does any of this matter. It will have more power and more torque than the previous generation and rumored to be faster. Isn't that what we all really want? More power, more torque, more speed. Seriously get over the manual thing, they are soon to be extinct. And why would you want to slow the thing down with human error and slowness. The latest auto tech can shift faster than a human easily. Why do you think Car & Drivers best time in a 335 was with an auto. Personally I would love to go faster and still be able to sip a coffee from time to time, safely of course.

[Silvertige]

Originally Posted by Suckr4Straight6s

Yet another reason I sold my overly complicated E90 and bought an all original low mileage '99 E36 M3... And will never buy another bmw past the E46 era. BMW have become some of the biggest sell outs in the auto industry.

That's funny. I did the exact same thing.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well not really, but for the sake of argument let's say I agree...



Oh, and then you totally blew it there anyway. By all means though, don't let the lack of facts keep you from making some up. Reality is, no one knows what it has yet, but evidence presented above seems to point to DCT. Good luck with your prediction though.

And what 'facts' are that? The fact the BMW may forgoe a DCT for a 8spd A/T? BMW can build anything if cost were no issue. The original poster pulled out a Veryron as a counter point to BMW's comment about high levels of TQ and the DCT. It's a stupid example. Veyron..Gimmie a break.

You may or may not remember this but American drivers screamed bloody hell when the E60 M5 wasn't offerred with a manual. BMW stated that the V10 was designed to be mated with the SMG, yet they relented and released a manual. Low and behold the reviews were not promising as the car drove like crap campared to SMG equipped models. So what is the lesson?

All this talk is just silly. The M5 is a touring car not a track car. BFD..everyone should get over it.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Socom

And what 'facts' are that?

There are none yet. That's exactly my point. You just made some up:

"...it's painfully obvious why BMW had to foregoe the DCT with the new M5. That can not be denied."

All this talk is just silly. The M5 is a touring car not a track car. BFD..everyone should get over it.

Speculation is fun for some folks. It makes for lively discussion. If you aren't enjoying the discussion, there's no reason you have to participate.

[CJ421]

Originally Posted by ViperJPB

Honestly, why does any of this matter. It will have more power and more torque than the previous generation and rumored to be faster. Isn't that what we all really want? More power, more torque, more speed. Seriously get over the manual thing, they are soon to be extinct. And why would you want to slow the thing down with human error and slowness. The latest auto tech can shift faster than a human easily. Why do you think Car & Drivers best time in a 335 was with an auto. Personally I would love to go faster and still be able to sip a coffee from time to time, safely of course.

Correct - these modern automatics shift faster than any human possibly could and provide better 0-xMPH times. There's very little 'advantage' to having a manual these days.

I ordered my BMW with one, however. Why? Because it's fun.

Everybody has their own preferences. I am planning to get an M5 later in life; if it's not offered in a manual I may bring my money elsewhere. This news is disappointing, BMW is the 'last hope' for manuals (IMO). Mercedes, etc . . . not even offered.
-----

And yes, on this forum we are a fraction of a percentage of BMW owners. My BMW dealer said few people get manuals, just about everybody has to order them special. When I went looking for a 335i with a 6MT, there were only three east of the Mississippi. Three cars!!!

[footie]

Originally Posted by CJ421

I am planning to get an M5 later in life; if it's not offered in a manual I may bring my money elsewhere. This news is disappointing, BMW is the 'last hope' for manuals (IMO). Mercedes, etc . . . not even offered.

If it doesn't come with a manual you may bring your money elsewhere?

Give me a break, no one other than BMW would even think of offering this type of car in manual form and the only reason they would is because a handful of plebs in the States think it necessary.

It's a big beast of a saloon car that's 2 ton in weight, it ain't something that will willing partake in trackdays or even thrill if it did.

Want a manual then buy a sportscar.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by footie

If it doesn't come with a manual you may bring your money elsewhere?

Give me a break, no one other than BMW would even think of offering this type of car in manual form and the only reason they would is because a handful of plebs in the States think it necessary.

It's a big beast of a saloon car that's 2 ton in weight, it ain't something that will willing partake in trackdays or even thrill if it did.

Want a manual then buy a sportscar.

Yep have to agree, sports car it ain't. Big fast cruiser it is.
Track days................... .................. NO.

[wiltshp]

I don't have a problem going with the TT V8, but losing the manual option is ridiculous. I guess I will eye the 550, in hopes that the modding will give it the power of an M5.

[SlammedR8]

Originally Posted by wiltshp

I don't have a problem going with the TT V8, but losing the manual option is ridiculous. I guess I will eye the 550, in hopes that the modding will give it the power of an M5.

Read up buddy...its pretty much been confirmed that the M5 will most definetely be equipped with DCT (if you look at the test vehicles we've seen, they've had DCT shifters in them).

[Glock 32]

I don't understand (sorry didn't read all pages)...

The very picture in the first post show a shift knob that does NOT look like the traditional automatic shift knob. So why do they say it has only been spied with an automatic?

This looks more like the SMG or DCT shift knob to me (WHICH IS A MANUAL GEARBOX)???

As far as a traditional manual (with a clutch pedal), NO THANKS.

Hope they keep their E39 manual gearbox out of the F10. It couldn't even handle the torque of the E39. Funny to see Americans get their way and opt out of the SMG for the E39 transmission thrown into the E60 (and not even a price difference, LOL).

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Glock 32

I don't understand (sorry didn't read all pages)...

The very picture in the first post show a shift knob that does NOT look like the traditional automatic shift knob. So why do they say it has only been spied with an automatic?

This looks more like the SMG or DCT shift knob to me (WHICH IS A MANUAL GEARBOX)???
.

Eeer NO, it's not a manual box never was, and in the first picture where are the shift paddles?.

[Glock 32]

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

Eeer NO, it's not a manual box never was, and in the first picture where are the shift paddles?.

Maybe that is the blinker, but check the last pic, first post of this thread http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417386

What is not a manual (DCT / SMG are definitely manual gear boxes sMg) or were you talking about the car in the pics, LOL?

Anyways my 550i 8-speed AUTOMATIC has paddles too (so that really doesn't mean anything one way or the other). I was speaking of the shift knob which looks altogether different than the F10 5-series and more like what comes with SMG on the E60.

Also the paddles are smaller in the F10 vs E60 which is why they are easily blocked in that picture by the wheel itself.

That being said I could see them having issues with clutch that is not strong enough. Well actually it sounds like they have that, but because it is so stiff heavier actuators are required which operate too slow (hate to have to operate the clutch pedal myself on a clutch that stiff which is why I doubt you'll see a clutch pedal offered in the new M5).

I also doubt they will release it with an automatic. I hope they figure out the DCT or even SMG and work out any bugs by 2013 model year release when I take delivery.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Glock 32

Attachment 491174
Maybe that is the blinker, but check the last pic, first post of this thread http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417386

What is not a manual (DCT / SMG are definitely manual gear boxes sMg) or were you talking about the car in the pics, LOL?

Anyways my 550i 8-speed AUTOMATIC has paddles too (so that really doesn't mean anything one way or the other). I was speaking of the shift knob which looks altogether different than the F10 5-series and more like what comes with SMG on the E60.

Also the paddles are smaller in the F10 vs E60 which is why they are easily blocked in that picture by the wheel itself.

That being said I could see them having issues with clutch that is not strong enough. Well actually it sounds like they have that, but because it is so stiff heavier actuators are required which operate too slow (hate to have to operate the clutch pedal myself on a clutch that stiff which is why I doubt you'll see a clutch pedal offered in the new M5).

I also doubt they will release it with an automatic. I hope they figure out the DCT or even SMG and work out any bugs by 2013 model year release when I take delivery.

Well that which you have circled could be the other indicator stalk or as you say "Small Paddle" but it should be visible from this side don't you think?, anyway SMG was rubbish IMO and will not be in the M5, the X6M and X5M both have the auto box, and as you have said the M-DCT box can NOT handle the extra torque "YET". But the M-DCT is not IMO a manual, semi-Auto yes. In my M3 E90 the only real every day difference in the M-DCT and full Auto, was the fact it could roll backwards at traffic lights if the throttle was not touched, once underway the car behaved "largely" as any auto again IMO.

[Glock 32]

Originally Posted by johnbmw6

Well that which you have circled could be the other indicator stalk or as you say "Small Paddle" but it should be visible from this side don't you think?, anyway SMG was rubbish IMO and will not be in the M5, the X6M and X5M both have the auto box, and as you have said the M-DCT box can NOT handle the extra torque "YET". But the M-DCT is not IMO a manual, semi-Auto yes. In my M3 E90 the only real every day difference in the M-DCT and full Auto, was the fact it could roll backwards at traffic lights if the throttle was not touched, once underway the car behaved "largely" as any auto again IMO.

DCT Opinion does not matter. The transmission has a clutch (well actually two clutches) which is why it rolls backwards at a light (like a manual) BEAUSE IT IS A MANUAL. The clutch is what deems it a manual. Automatic transmission have a torque converter instead of a clutch and do not roll backwards (like an automatic BECAUSE THAT IS AN AUTOMATIC).

SMG was/is a great transmission (as long as you drove it like a manual, which it is), IMO. Alot of people expected it to be smooth like a steptronic auto gearbox and did not know that they bought a sequential MANUAL gearbox which is mostly why it got a bad wrap, IMO.

(The other link clearly shows a paddle, but doesn't mean anything anyways and again, Auto's have paddles and I was speaking of the shift knob that looks more like DCT or SMG vs any sort of auto I have seen). There is not even a button on the shift knob to release it from park, etc).

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Glock 32

BEAUSE IT IS A MANUAL.

It's not, and the reason is that the transmission can shift on its own. Both DCT and Steptronic have an automatic and a manual mode. They are functionally 99% the same. And because of this fact, no typical consumer who walks into a dealership and asks for a car with a manual transmission is going to take you seriously if you try and sell them a DCT. Similarly, no one who wants an automatic is going to drive a DCT and say "Hey, this is manual transmisison - I asked for automatic!".

The internals of the transmission have nothing to do with whether it is an automatic or manual. Instead, only user interface matters as far as that goes. In fact, the DCT makes such a good automatic that some cars only come with either DCT or traditional manual transmission now. The Ford Fiesta and Volkswagon GTI are two examples. And in the case of the Ford, there's not even a manual mode to be found - it's a purely automatic experience. That pretty damningly rules out the idea that a DCT is, by nature, a manual.