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      10-09-2013, 04:25 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
(1) Extra charges for a "performance pack". MB offers the sAMG package and BMW offers the ZCP option. With BMW, this amounts to a few hundred dollars in new hardware, different (not better wheels), and a SW change. Cost? Over 7 grand. MB has a similar deal going. Come on. 7 grand for sw, cast wheels, some different bushings, and a different anti-sway bar? Rip off.
Expecting pennies for the development of software for the M5??

Your usage of the term "rip off" is offensive.
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      10-09-2013, 04:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm323
Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
(1) Extra charges for a "performance pack". MB offers the sAMG package and BMW offers the ZCP option. With BMW, this amounts to a few hundred dollars in new hardware, different (not better wheels), and a SW change. Cost? Over 7 grand. MB has a similar deal going. Come on. 7 grand for sw, cast wheels, some different bushings, and a different anti-sway bar? Rip off.
Expecting pennies for the development of software for the M5??

Your usage of the term "rip off" is offensive.
No he's right. The software in this instance has virtually zero R&D cost. He's not saying the value is zero, But I'm sure BMW is making way more margin as a percentage on ZCP than it does on B&O.
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      10-09-2013, 04:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RidgeRacer View Post
No he's right. The software in this instance has virtually zero R&D cost. He's not saying the value is zero, But I'm sure BMW is making way more margin as a percentage on ZCP than it does on B&O.
Why is the R & D cost zero?
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      10-09-2013, 05:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by KoenG View Post
BTW, on the LCI none M, the front fog lights have become an option, while on pre-LCI they where standard trim. Just to seduce prospects to throw some extra money in the deal...
because they look soooo much nicer without fog lights

we don't have fog lights on M cars and still easily survive without it
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      10-09-2013, 05:51 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
It seems pretty clear you didn't even read my post. At no point did I say the M5 was a rip off. I don't even know why you went off in that direction.

Ummmm below is a portion of your post. Value is what you personally perceive is a good deal nothing more. It's all emotional clearly we all drive wants and not needs(:


Currently I drive an M3 which I love so I'm slightly predisposed to BMW but I need something bigger (objectively true) and something faster (emotionally true). In looking around, I'm getting rather annoyed at what I'm seeing with Mercedes and BMW. They are ripping us off!
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      10-09-2013, 06:35 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RidgeRacer View Post
No he's right. The software in this instance has virtually zero R&D cost. He's not saying the value is zero, But I'm sure BMW is making way more margin as a percentage on ZCP than it does on B&O.
Very interesting post, and it defeats economics 101 because the goal for any business is to turn a profit. One that allows R&D, pay good wages, new tech, also fund projects that go bust. BMW has a 10% margin last year, and that was down from 2011 which is never a good trend for share holders. Hence, add more items to the M5 so you all will buy them(: a little horse power here, and there drives margin. This is no different than Apple selling a new phone every year, and that company prints money because they have figured out people want the latest and preveived new toy ......ummm LCI same concept.

I say each to his own, and buy what makes your heart flutter you only live once last time I checked. My other half likes to say why do I have so many cars, and I say why do you have so many pair of shoes and purses. Well that typically ends the conversation in stood way. I have no problem with adds on's or mark up because it's a matter of preference. Hell I still have the first iPad, and it works like all the others. No way I will get rid of it until it freaking breaks. I think you will see more models, upgrades from BMW going forward because they can't afford to drop to a single digit margin with Audi chasing trying to steal market share. Porsche is another example of a car manufacture that made one car a 911, and now look at them multiple products to drive market along with margin.

Hats off to BMW for providing us a ton of options to customize a car. LCI not for me because I will never chase minor upgrades. Next thing you know Bam the next model is out, and you're one year into a exiting model in some cases. M5 is a damn good machine for the money hell it has super car power! Funny some cars are loaded with all the toys, and who actually uses all the stuff not me I just drive the crap out of it.
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      10-09-2013, 08:00 AM   #29
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I wonder what Stealth's answer would be?
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      10-09-2013, 08:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer6 View Post
The key is never to buy a car for resale because it's not an investment bottom line.
^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

I agree. I like the opportunity to customize and make your car different. You pay more to do so. No different than the way some idiots like me keep spending $10K on wheels/tires then trading the dang thing 4 months later. Bottom line-you are paying to get what you like. Spend what you can afford to enjoy. I did the same as Bimmer6. Got my M5 loaded with BO, full leather, rear-ent., piano trim, etc. because I liked the luxury of the sedan. On my P car I got a cool aero kit on the outside and no full leather or crazy interior appointments inside. I liked the sportiness and that was it. Others dress the P cars up for crazy amounts of money too. All about what you WANT with cars-not NEED. Get what you WANT. It is a luxury item and you pay for the extras.

Honestly, I think it is the perfect model for the consumer and a very smart business model.
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      10-09-2013, 08:25 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstmng View Post
because they look soooo much nicer without fog lights

we don't have fog lights on M cars and still easily survive without it
SECONDED , no front Fogs here on "M".
It looks so much better IMO without them.
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      10-09-2013, 09:23 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND
I wonder what Stealth's answer would be?
LOL. WWSD??
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      10-09-2013, 09:27 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
It seems pretty clear you didn't even read my post. At no point did I say the M5 was a rip off. I don't even know why you went off in that direction.
Ok, so maybe you didn't specifically state that the M5 was a ripoff but is it not logical to connect the closely spaced dots (rhetorical)? Your logic with respect to the cost of the individual parts versus price only applies to options?

My bad.
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      10-09-2013, 09:42 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbmw6 View Post
SECONDED , no front Fogs here on "M".
It looks so much better IMO without them.
Cools brakes better too :-)
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      10-09-2013, 09:48 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Someone else already mentioned but I'll reiterate, you forgot about the $2,000 price increase as of October 1st.

50% of the cost of the ZCP is you being able to tell people that "your" M5 has 575hp as opposed to those poor people who can only afford the 560hp version. Lol!

Also if you actually analyzed the features of the ZCP, you'd realize it only costs 6k instead of 7.3k if you were gonna get the 20" wheels anyways. Less than 1% of F10 M5's sold have the 19" wheels on them. Lol!

But in some ways you are right OP. The swaybars cost no more than $400, the bushings maybe $100, the Springs, like $400, and the missing baffles in the exhaust and blacked out tips, prolly like $100 bucks. The 15hp increase in reality maybe like $500, and the steering improvements like a $1,000. The CP 601 wheels, would probably be a $1,300 dollar option like the 343M's if they were a stand alone option. Added up, in reality it prolly costs, $3,800 bucks for all the Comp Pack components, but they have to make a profit right? How else is Hans, who works on the M5 assembly line, gonna get paid? Lol!

Quit your complaining and just fork over your hard earned money. In the end you are getting what you paid for, a better product.

I can attest, by the fact that I have over 26,000 miles on my 2013 M5, that it does NOT NEED the Comp Pack, but if I wanted a slightly faster, slightly better sounding, and slightly better driving and handling M5, ON THE RACE TRACK, I would sell my left kidney to get the ZCP.
All great points; however, I would like to offer two additional considerations:

1. There is also an installation cost for these features that should be accounted for.
2. In reality, the only way to access these features (outside BMW ZCP) is to buy them separately at an equal or even greater cost (i.e., Eisenmann exhaust $4k + install, H&R springs $600 + install, etc, etc)
3. Your ZCP package is covered under BMW warranty and aftermarket mods are not. As a matter of fact, they may even be taken as an excuse for BMW to void or at least affect the M%'s warranty.

Just my 2 cents.
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      10-09-2013, 10:04 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND View Post
I wonder what Stealth's answer would be?
Agreed.

I was going to author a response on price discrimination and how option packages are used to encourage buyers to reveal their true price sensitivity, creating additional buyer segments and enabling suppliers to capture additional consumer surplus.

but i stopped, knowing that whatever I wrote would be gibberish compared to the knight commander.
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      10-09-2013, 10:04 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashhell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob///M5
Buy a lightly used F10 M5 for a ridiculously good price
Slightly used M5 are going for 90% of MSRP.
If I'm buying a $85k+ used car, I'll pay $10k more for a new one. :/
How I wish this were true. Look around, you'll be shocked.
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      10-09-2013, 10:09 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Rob///M5 View Post
How I wish this were true. Look around, you'll be shocked.
+1
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      10-09-2013, 10:23 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND View Post
I wonder what Stealth's answer would be?
I feel like no one else appreciates your digs....
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      10-09-2013, 11:36 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by kylek13 View Post
I feel like no one else appreciates your digs....
we all see but do not respond , thats the answer,
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      10-09-2013, 11:51 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

I agree. I like the opportunity to customize and make your car different. You pay more to do so. No different than the way some idiots like me keep spending $10K on wheels/tires then trading the dang thing 4 months later. Bottom line-you are paying to get what you like. Spend what you can afford to enjoy. I did the same as Bimmer6. Got my M5 loaded with BO, full leather, rear-ent., piano trim, etc. because I liked the luxury of the sedan. On my P car I got a cool aero kit on the outside and no full leather or crazy interior appointments inside. I liked the sportiness and that was it. Others dress the P cars up for crazy amounts of money too. All about what you WANT with cars-not NEED. Get what you WANT. It is a luxury item and you pay for the extras.

Honestly, I think it is the perfect model for the consumer and a very smart business model.
No way dude I didn't add all that extra weight My options full leather, HUD, 20" wheels ............right choices for me! I would never use all that other stuff.
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      10-09-2013, 12:19 PM   #42
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I love the idea of personalisation, this is one of the ways of achieving the same car, with different kind of specs and varieties compared with others.
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      10-09-2013, 12:51 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstmng View Post
customazitation of P-car interior can add 50% to the base car price EASY!
This is also why I have a hard time considering a Porsche. The price of options on a 991, you could buy a Boxter!
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      10-09-2013, 12:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
I've been looking at an M5, a M6 GC, an E63 and the CLS63. I'm seeking a 4 door sedan which will dust 911s and Corvettes without much effort and which will carry me around in relative luxury. I'm looking in the $100-110K range (so the M6 is not really an option).

Currently I drive an M3 which I love so I'm slightly predisposed to BMW but I need something bigger (objectively true) and something faster (emotionally true). In looking around, I'm getting rather annoyed at what I'm seeing with Mercedes and BMW. They are ripping us off!

How? Here are three examples each company has embraced.

(1) Extra charges for a "performance pack". MB offers the sAMG package and BMW offers the ZCP option. With BMW, this amounts to a few hundred dollars in new hardware, different (not better wheels), and a SW change. Cost? Over 7 grand. MB has a similar deal going. Come on. 7 grand for sw, cast wheels, some different bushings, and a different anti-sway bar? Rip off.

(2) Extra charges for paint colors. The "individual" options for paint are such a ridiculous rip off I can't believe it. The companies offer a lame selection of colors and then charge a pantload of money for additional colors?

(3) Extra charges for non balck and white interiors. Same comments as above - offer a limited selection of interior colors then a giant extra charge for additional colors. Come on - merely offering a slightly wider selection of colors would cost the company almost nothing yet we're paying $5K for this option.

I know, I know, if I don't like it don't buy. But doesn't this bother anyone else? They are basically sitting around asking each other how they can get another few thousand out of each sale and they aren't offering anything of inherent value for it.

Pat

I feel your pain Pat. I agree with you 100%. Sadly this is just how the market plays.
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