M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > F10 M5 Forum > Engine, Exhaust, Drivetrain Modifications

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-13-2013, 09:08 AM   #45
M5 TT
Captain
Scotland
169
Rep
657
Posts

Drives: F90 M5
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post

Pretty sure BMW HQ knows how to detect that a piggyback has been on the car, if they want to find out... (like in a warranty claim case)

That was kind of my point!!
__________________
540i
GTR-R35, F90 M5, X3MC, RS3, RS7, M5, S7, S3, RS3, RS6, GTR R35, 996 Turbo, M5, RS6 V10, Cayenne Turbo S
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 10:14 AM   #46
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M5 TT View Post
That was kind of my point!!
I know, was just trying to elaborate on the same point. Wasn't saying you said it couldn't be detected
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 10:35 AM   #47
M5 TT
Captain
Scotland
169
Rep
657
Posts

Drives: F90 M5
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

I guess it's only really relevant if the warranty claim is large or not and how keen they are to find any tampering. I suppose at the end of the day it depends how well you get on with your dealer and how brave you feel?
__________________
540i
GTR-R35, F90 M5, X3MC, RS3, RS7, M5, S7, S3, RS3, RS6, GTR R35, 996 Turbo, M5, RS6 V10, Cayenne Turbo S
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 11:39 AM   #48
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Not sure how it works in the US, but normally larger warranty claims involving engine, transmission etc has to go to HQ/factory for final decissions... Smaller claims like a faulty switch etc is handled by the dealer (AFAIK).

I think that would be the problem, it's not up to the dealer to decide if your engine/trans failure is covered under warranty. They have to relay all info to BMW HQ, or have HQ look into the electronic logs etc. I know that on my car there was a problem with the electronics that the local dealer couldn't figure out. They transferred all of the data to the factory in Germany who found out it was a loose wire...

Since warranties are covered by BMW and not the dealer, it's understandable that BMW HQ wants to make sure that if they pay for a new engine. or similar, then it's because of it being their fault. Not some aftermarket tune... They would rather check that for themselves than have a "friendly" dealer decide that BMW has to pay. After all, your service manager and dealership doesn't have to cover the warranty claim. Meaning that it might be easier for them to let BMW take the bill instead of risk loosing a customer that's not happy with their decision.

That's also how the AC Schnitzer warranty works, BMW covers any warranty claim that is not related to the tune. Any failure related to the tune is AC Schnitzer's responsibility.

Last edited by Boss330; 10-13-2013 at 11:45 AM..
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 03:20 PM   #49
stealth.pilot
Knight Commander
stealth.pilot's Avatar
United Kingdom
554
Rep
5,948
Posts

Drives: 2014 911 Turbo S
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Buckhead

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by mindlessmark07 View Post
+1....I own my car outright and I am willing to take the risk.
I buy all my cars outright, but I wouldn't take the risk. It's a >$40k expense to replace an M5 engine and that's just the parts.

Yeah it wouldn't hurt me to pay that, but it would piss me off a lot - it's just not a good use of money. It's like car insurance - I have enough cash in the bank to pay for any claims including injury claims, but I'd rather not self insure.
__________________
2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS 580
2020 Mercedes-Benz GLE 450
Ordered: EQS580, BMW IX, Lucid Air Touring, Corvette Stingray
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 04:02 PM   #50
M-bitious
Lieutenant
M-bitious's Avatar
Netherlands
83
Rep
411
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam

iTrader: (0)

Been running my Manhart M5 (MH5S) now for over 10,000 miles. Not a single issue with my 660 RWHP so far. But I also have warranty.
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2013, 04:28 PM   #51
Neil McRae
BMW Motorsport
Neil McRae's Avatar
United Kingdom
233
Rep
2,225
Posts

Drives: BMW ///M4 F82 / BMW ///M5 F10
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Surrey

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2020 BMW M5 CP  [0.00]
2015 BMW M4  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh View Post
Not all information is stored on the key fob. Only service relevant data
However the car will log plenty of data BMW HQ can retrieve if need arises.
The dealer does NOT have access to this data and can't intercept or read it
BMW HQ for example has used the data to verify abuse after bend valves, burned clutches etc...
So bottom line is anyone who puts any kind of tune on their cars (sw, piggy back, paper clip , whatever)
has to understand they MAY have to cover costs for repairs and loose their warranties (if it's a lease car BMW can even possibly have you buy out the car as you breached the lease agreement)
my dealer can pull down loads of data logged in the car, top speed, max revs, engine run time, number of gear changes and a load of other stuff. Give you can get RPM on the iPhone app now!
__________________
--
Neil J. //McRae -- Alive and Kicking -- neil at DOMINO.ORG --///M ARMY
M5 CP Alpine White -- M2 LBB -- M4 DCT CP Alpine White
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 03:37 AM   #52
AlphaAlpineM6
First Lieutenant
AlphaAlpineM6's Avatar
United_States
33
Rep
380
Posts

Drives: 2014 BMW M6 & 2012 AMG CLS63
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Planet Earth

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
My modding route on this car assuming tuner can figure the ECU out. Catless downpipes, club sport manifolds, and E85.

Also need better brakes for stopping power..
__________________

2008 M3 Sedan + catless + Tune
2012 CLS63 AMG
2014 M6 Coupe + catless + KW V3
2015 Porsche GT3
, 2015 M3, all stock, 1/1 Space Grey

Last edited by AlphaAlpineM6; 10-15-2013 at 11:38 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 05:03 AM   #53
gmd2003
Colonel
gmd2003's Avatar
352
Rep
2,176
Posts

Drives: 2014 CP M6 and 2006 VT 525 Z4M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Carolina

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaAlpineM6
My modding route on this car assuming tuner can figure the ECU out. Catless downpipes, cup sport manifolds, and E85. Also need better brakes for stopping power..
Please don't downgrade the brakes , you won't find a better front caliper . If you are talking about track use , just get some more aggressive pads .
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 09:14 AM   #54
Bob MG
Moderating
Bob MG's Avatar
United Arab Emirates
416
Rep
2,047
Posts

Drives: like a muppet
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Dubai

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie F10M View Post
I am curious why you think the car needs a tune. Don't you think it has enough power at the moment ?
I do love this statement. Have you ever had a good tune on one of your cars?

On a turbo car it adds massive gains. Especially in mid range. With this attitude I'm surprised you didn't just go for a 550i

If you going to tune, then ensure you are doing it with a reputable tuner and also that the speed governor and rev limiter are left untouched.

BMW have no other way of detecting the tune without those parameters being exceeded.

I did this on my last ESS supercharged E90 and when the car went in for quality inspection when everything was bolted off, they found nothing and it passed with flying colors

Once you exceed the speed limited or rev limiter you can never erase without replacing the instrument cluster as well as clearing all other DME's

Going over the governed 250 KPH and the factory RPM seems stupid anyway
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 10:08 AM   #55
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
I do love this statement. Have you ever had a good tune on one of your cars?

On a turbo car it adds massive gains. Especially in mid range. With this attitude I'm surprised you didn't just go for a 550i

If you going to tune, then ensure you are doing it with a reputable tuner and also that the speed governor and rev limiter are left untouched.

BMW have no other way of detecting the tune without those parameters being exceeded.

I did this on my last ESS supercharged E90 and when the car went in for quality inspection when everything was bolted off, they found nothing and it passed with flying colors

Once you exceed the speed limited or rev limiter you can never erase without replacing the instrument cluster as well as clearing all other DME's

Going over the governed 250 KPH and the factory RPM seems stupid anyway
There is a BIG difference between a service and a warranty claim. At a service, the info available to the technician will not tell him if there has been a tune present (in the case of a piggyback). If you have had a ECU flash and reflashed back to std. software, all they can see is that at a certain time there was a bunch of fault codes created. If you have a fault code eraser you can avoid that as well.

But, what they look at during a service is just scratching the surface of what the DME have logged. The dealership won't normally have access to read and/or analyze that info however, and in a normal service situation don't need to anyway.

But for a warranty claim involving, say, a engine replacement the dealership will have to turn to BMW HQ for a decision on whether this is a failure covered under warranty or if it's due to driver abuse/non-original software etc. That will be a MUCH more in-depth dive into the DME and engine than they do at a service.

In fact, it would be rather stupid of any manufacturer not to create some sort of logging that will help them decide if someone has tuned their car. Otherwise they would risk having to cover failures that some wonky aftermarket tune might have caused...
Appreciate 0
      10-14-2013, 09:57 PM   #56
kylek13
Second Lieutenant
13
Rep
236
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5 Frozen Grey
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Indy

iTrader: (1)

Has anyone actually blown one up yet?
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2013, 12:58 AM   #57
V10lol
Registered
0
Rep
3
Posts

Drives: AW DCT M5
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: New York

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
There is a BIG difference between a service and a warranty claim. At a service, the info available to the technician will not tell him if there has been a tune present (in the case of a piggyback). If you have had a ECU flash and reflashed back to std. software, all they can see is that at a certain time there was a bunch of fault codes created. If you have a fault code eraser you can avoid that as well.

But, what they look at during a service is just scratching the surface of what the DME have logged. The dealership won't normally have access to read and/or analyze that info however, and in a normal service situation don't need to anyway.

But for a warranty claim involving, say, a engine replacement the dealership will have to turn to BMW HQ for a decision on whether this is a failure covered under warranty or if it's due to driver abuse/non-original software etc. That will be a MUCH more in-depth dive into the DME and engine than they do at a service.

In fact, it would be rather stupid of any manufacturer not to create some sort of logging that will help them decide if someone has tuned their car. Otherwise they would risk having to cover failures that some wonky aftermarket tune might have caused...
I was a shop foreman for a bmw dealer and I've been in the business for awhile. I can tell you that the info they pull From your car Every time they do a "vehicle test" is amazing. Its called FASTA data. It goes to Germany and also BMW NA head quarters everytime the car is scanned. That info goes in a folder for your VIN and they use it for quality purposes and or to back a warranty refusal. Some of the info cant be used against you technically in a court of law. They wont tell you that unless you bark back.
Appreciate 1
      10-15-2013, 07:24 PM   #58
buildbright
Major
buildbright's Avatar
155
Rep
1,400
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 MG
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Tampa, FL

iTrader: (1)

This is why I like piggybacks.
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2013, 11:39 PM   #59
AlphaAlpineM6
First Lieutenant
AlphaAlpineM6's Avatar
United_States
33
Rep
380
Posts

Drives: 2014 BMW M6 & 2012 AMG CLS63
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Planet Earth

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post

BMW have no other way of detecting the tune without those parameters being exceeded.
This is 110% wrong information. Sorry to call you out dude..
__________________

2008 M3 Sedan + catless + Tune
2012 CLS63 AMG
2014 M6 Coupe + catless + KW V3
2015 Porsche GT3
, 2015 M3, all stock, 1/1 Space Grey
Appreciate 0
      10-15-2013, 11:41 PM   #60
AlphaAlpineM6
First Lieutenant
AlphaAlpineM6's Avatar
United_States
33
Rep
380
Posts

Drives: 2014 BMW M6 & 2012 AMG CLS63
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Planet Earth

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by V10lol View Post
I was a shop foreman for a bmw dealer and I've been in the business for awhile. I can tell you that the info they pull From your car Every time they do a "vehicle test" is amazing. Its called FASTA data. It goes to Germany and also BMW NA head quarters everytime the car is scanned. That info goes in a folder for your VIN and they use it for quality purposes and or to back a warranty refusal. Some of the info cant be used against you technically in a court of law. They wont tell you that unless you bark back.
Thank you for this information - good to know your were a former shop foreman!
__________________

2008 M3 Sedan + catless + Tune
2012 CLS63 AMG
2014 M6 Coupe + catless + KW V3
2015 Porsche GT3
, 2015 M3, all stock, 1/1 Space Grey
Appreciate 0
      10-16-2013, 02:44 AM   #61
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
This is why I like piggybacks.
?

As has been pointed out previously, the info stored on the ECU will be able to detect that a piggyback has manipulated input/output signals...
Appreciate 0
      10-16-2013, 11:39 AM   #62
buildbright
Major
buildbright's Avatar
155
Rep
1,400
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 MG
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Tampa, FL

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
?

As has been pointed out previously, the info stored on the ECU will be able to detect that a piggyback has manipulated input/output signals...
Incorrect. It has been proven before.
Appreciate 0
      10-16-2013, 12:32 PM   #63
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
Incorrect. It has been proven before.
Proven? How?

On a warranty claim for a engine replacement?
Appreciate 0
      10-16-2013, 12:39 PM   #64
buildbright
Major
buildbright's Avatar
155
Rep
1,400
Posts

Drives: F80 M3 MG
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Tampa, FL

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Proven? How?

On a warranty claim for a engine replacement?
Yes multiple people on here. Search the forum. Also people claiming to work for BMW saying it can not be detected.
Appreciate 0
      10-16-2013, 12:54 PM   #65
B-1Pilot
Yankee Air Pirate
B-1Pilot's Avatar
151
Rep
978
Posts

Drives: '14 M5 w/CP
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: In a Hot Place

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
Yes multiple people on here. Search the forum. Also people claiming to work for BMW saying it can not be detected.
wrong forum... maybe on a 3 series... different DME/ECU, different car, non M5
__________________
2020 ///M5 || 2019 540XI || 2014 ///M5 w/CP || My Epic ED trip report|| || 2009 BMW R1200RT
Appreciate 0
      10-16-2013, 01:35 PM   #66
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by buildbright View Post
Yes multiple people on here. Search the forum. Also people claiming to work for BMW saying it can not be detected.
I searched and so far found many posts covering service and minor warranty work, what I'm thinking about is similar to what I found in this post when I searched:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=18

From what I understand there is a big difference between what your local garage can detect and what BMW HQ can detect from the software. And as the former service manager posted above, it seems like a lot of data is downloaded and relayed to BMW.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:56 PM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST