Mercedes debuts the brand new 2018 E63 AMG!

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

We can laugh, but look at the used prices in the US. These cars are in short supply and hold their value extremely well!

I wish BMW and Mercedes managed production counts as well.

Just one month ago there was 10k in dealer cash on the GSF- one of my partner stores was selling a new black 16 for 67k with an msrp of 88k....they are not selling (at least as new) according the internal Lexus numbers.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Just one month ago there was 10k in dealer cash on the GSF- one of my partner stores was selling a new black 16 for 67k with an msrp of 88k....they are not selling (at least as new) according the internal Lexus numbers.

Wow. They are pretty overpriced then.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

They have also been very successful at it.

You got to remember that most people are buying 330i and 530i. Lexus can compete with these and either give you 6 cylinder for a 4 cylinder price with more standard equipment.

It's the high end the Japanese struggle with, and largely because they know the margins are better if you have fewer more mainstream products, so they don't bother to invest. Cars like the GSF don't represent their R&D effort in performance, there is no R&D. These are F models are not much more than trim packages.

Agree with most of what you said but there is a difference between F model and F package exactly like M package and M model, GSF is F model with high performane brakes, suspension, transmission, differential and ofcourse engine (V8). But there is no different engines for different models... GSF has the same engine RCF has...

[bobblehead]

Canada - 2017 GSF is selling for nearly $100,000Cdn (or converted to about $75,000 US) + taxes 13% + fees ($3,000Cdn)

Leasing this car is going to hurt .. 36 months, residual 45%. Meaning, it is much worse than your M5/E63 (about 52% range) .. at least in Canada. No wonder I don't see this GSF on the road as nobody is stupid enough to lease it.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Just one month ago there was 10k in dealer cash on the GSF- one of my partner stores was selling a new black 16 for 67k with an msrp of 88k....they are not selling (at least as new) according the internal Lexus numbers.

I got several calls from Lexus Newport about some deal like this (7-8k) for RCF too... they have difficulty to sell their RCF

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Agree with most of what you said but there is a difference between F model and F package exactly like M package and M model, GSF is F model with high performane brakes, suspension, transmission, differential and ofcourse engine (V8). But there is no different engines for different models... GSF has the same engine RCF has...

Yes but this is just a bored out version of the LS460 engine. It's not like it has cool tech, better materials, higher rev limit, etc. It is just a 5 liter version of the 4.6 liter engine with an improved exhaust and some tuning.

As for brakes, they are bigger versions of what is on the LS460 with same calipers, and you can't get Carbon Ceramic brakes.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I got several calls from Lexus Newport about some deal like this (7-8k) for RCF too... they have difficulty to sell their RCF

All the F series (not sport) models are slow sellers. The gap in pricing does not cover the gap in performance between them and the M's. The biggest factory cash on the RCF I saw was 6k plus the margin between msrp and triple net cost which is much more than the 7-8k they threw at you.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by clar

Not likely to be a big advantage in weight. I would be happy with a 200 lbs advantage. Their most profitable model and they skimp on technology. BMW is really cheap.

Yeah I agree there probably won't be a big advantage in weight. In the end I think they will all perform similarly, just like the current F10 M5 CP and E63 S (2016), based on SA's test results (7:54 for M5, 7:55 for the Mercedes), no significant advantage one over the other.

The new E63 S (603HP), I used a stopwatch and timed the brief SA test on 0-250km (youtube video) and got 0-100km/h ~3.3, 0-200km/h ~ 10.7, and 0-250km/h ~17.3. Those are damn fast times (but obviously need a third party timing device to confirm as we don't know how accurate Mercedes speedometer is). The latest RS7 Performance (605HP) model was able to do 0-100km/h 3.5, 0-200km/h 11.2, 0-250km/h 18.4, and 0-300km/h 32.1 in Auto Bild's test.

F10 M5's 0-250km/h is usually around 19-20 seconds, and 0-300km/h around 34-35 seconds. So I would think F90 M5 will bring down those numbers close to or slightly faster than the competition.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Yeah I agree there probably won't be a big advantage in weight. In the end I think they will all perform similarly, just like the current F10 M5 CP and E63 S (2016), based on SA's test results (7:54 for M5, 7:55 for the Mercedes), no significant advantage one over the other.

The new E63 S (603HP), I used a stopwatch and timed the brief SA test on 0-250km (youtube video) and got 0-100km/h ~3.3, 0-200km/h ~ 10.7, and 0-250km/h ~17.3. Those are damn fast times (but obviously need a third party timing device to confirm as we don't know how accurate Mercedes speedometer is). The latest RS7 Performance (605HP) model was able to do 0-100km/h 3.5, 0-200km/h 11.2, 0-250km/h 18.4, and 0-300km/h 32.1 in Auto Bild's test.

F10 M5's 0-250km/h is usually around 19-20 seconds, and 0-300km/h around 34-35 seconds. So I would think F90 M5 will bring down those numbers close to or slightly faster than the competition.

The current M6 Coupe (575 ps) can beat all of those cars in rolling and very close to all of them (even better in 0-300 km/h) except the launch
0-100 : 11.9
0-200: 11.2
0-250: 17.4
0-300: 30.4

F90 M5 will weigh less than 4200 lb and probably has A LOT over 600 HP so basically will kill both E63 and RS7

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

The current M6 Coupe (575 ps) can beat all of those cars in rolling and very close to all of them (even better in 0-300 km/h) except the launch
0-100 : 11.9
0-200: 11.2
0-250: 17.4
0-300: 30.4

F90 M5 will weigh less than 4200 lb and probably has A LOT over 600 HP so basically will kill both E63 and RS7

Haha I knew you will bring that test up. Well like we discussed before, all the subsequent test on the M6 has it running 0-300km/h around 34 seconds, so for me that 30.4 seconds car is a outlier. I prefer to throw out the best and worst results.

The newest Porsche TTS still ran 0-300km/h around 29-30 seconds (didn't really improve from the 560HP version) I do not believe the F90 M5 will break 30 seconds unless it has close to 700HP.

So lower 30s is more likely, just like their competition.

As for the weight saving, I will believe it when I see it. A lot of times after you add all those new goodie options, the weight saving turned out to be minimal.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Haha I knew you will bring that test up. Well like we discussed before, all the subsequent test on the M6 has it running 0-300km/h around 34 seconds, so for me that 30.4 seconds car is a outlier. I prefer to throw out the best and worst results.

The newest Porsche TTS still ran 0-300km/h around 29-30 seconds (didn't really improve from the 560HP version) I do not believe the F90 M5 will break 30 seconds unless it has close to 700HP.

So lower 30s is more likely, just like their competition.

As for the weight saving, I will believe it when I see it. A lot of times after you add all those new goodie options, the weight saving turned out to be minimal.

Haha and I knew you would bring that up too... For now I stick to 30 seconds (M6 Coupe 575 ps) and you stick to 34 seconds (M6 Coupe 600 ps). I bet the next M5/M6 are in sub 30 seconds (0-300 km/h) and I'm sure the next M5/M6 is not anywhere close to 700 HP. Maximum 650 HP is what S63tu is gonna generate from factory setup.
The weight saving is based on the body structure since G30 is about 200lb lighter than F10
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ical_data.html

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Haha and I knew you would bring that up too... For now I stick to 30 seconds (M6 Coupe 575 ps) and you stick to 34 seconds (M6 Coupe 600 ps). I bet the next M5/M6 are in sub 30 seconds (0-300 km/h) and I'm sure the next M5/M6 is not anywhere close to 700 HP. Maximum 650 HP is what S63tu is gonna generate from factory setup.
The weight saving is based on the body structure since G30 is about 200lb lighter than F10
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ical_data.html

I don't think next M5/6 will be a sub 30 seconds car in 0-300km/h, that would be in the new Porsche TTS territory but hey, I will be happy to be proven wrong.

As for the weight loss, I don't deny the chassis weight savings, if BMW said it's 200 pounds lighter, then it is 200 pounds lighter. But what I am saying is, based from we have seen in the past, those chassis weight loss is rarely reflected in the actual vehicle weight.

Time and time again a lot of chassis weight savings would in the end be added back with additional safety measures (like more airbags or whatnot)and more fancy options like massage chairs (I don't know if F90 M5 has that options but I'm just saying).

I will be surprised if a F90 M5 fully equipped will be 200 pounds lighter than the F10 M5.

[Vic55]

I respect mag numbers because they are official and done in the best conditions with heated up tires. But I run my cars in the real world where I have to accelerate, turn, brake, and then speed up again. There are way too many factors to incorporate when cars like whats being compared are so close. A simple jump by one car and its gone; Im just saying its never a premeditated race on the streets. So the easier car to drive in all situations is better in that case.

The Turbo S is that car LOL.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

I don't think next M5/6 will be a sub 30 seconds car in 0-300km/h, that would be in the new Porsche TTS territory but hey, I will be happy to be proven wrong.

As for the weight loss, I don't deny the chassis weight savings, if BMW said it's 200 pounds lighter, then it is 200 pounds lighter. But what I am saying is, based from we have seen in the past, those chassis weight loss is rarely reflected in the actual vehicle weight.

Time and time again a lot of chassis weight savings would in the end be added back with additional safety measures (like more airbags or whatnot)and more fancy options like massage chairs (I don't know if F90 M5 has that options but I'm just saying).

I will be surprised if a F90 M5 fully equipped will be 200 pounds lighter than the F10 M5.

Buddy it's the laws of physic called : Power To Weight Ratio
You can keep comparing any car with 911 TTS but just keep in mind there is a big difference between cars with different weight distribution , gearing ratios, transmission, differential, AWD or RWD, drag coefficient and etc... and that's why 2014 M6 Coupe with Competition Package is faster than 2014 911 TTS at high speed rolling (200-300 km/h or 250-300 km/h). No doubt 911 TTS is a fantastic car but I'm not sure why everything in this world must be compared to 911 TTS and then 911TTS is always the winner ... even McLaren, Lambo and Ferrari LOL

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Buddy it's the laws of physic called : Power To Weight Ratio
You can keep comparing any car with 911 TTS but just keep in mind there is a big difference between cars with different weight distribution , gearing ratios, transmission, differential, AWD or RWD, drag coefficient and etc... and that's why 2014 M6 Coupe with Competition Package is faster than 2014 911 TTS at high speed rolling (200-300 km/h or 250-300 km/h). No doubt 911 TTS is a fantastic car but I'm not sure why everything in this world must be compared to 911 TTS and then 911TTS is always the winner ... even McLaren, Lambo and Ferrari LOL

I'm only comparing it to the new TTS because right off the bat that's the car I can think of that's right under sub 30 seconds for 0-300km/h (and I'm not talking about high speed rolling contest). Ferrari 458 Speciale in Auto Bild's test ran 32.9 seconds, so that's no good, but 488 is way under 30 seconds.

If BMW is keeping the F90 M5 around the 600HP mark or only slightly more, it will not go under 30 seconds for 0-300km/h, even with a 200 pounds weight loss. Two separate test on the RS7 performance model by Auto Bild had it running around 32 seconds (and I am pretty sure Audi is underrated too), so for the new M5 to go under 30 seconds, it will have to make a lot more than 600HP.

Plus keep in mind, what happened when BMW increase current M6's HP from 575 to 600? It got slower, at least two magazine tests (one of which is Auto Bild Sportscars, the very same magazine that did your favorite 30.4) have showed that it now needed 34 seconds + to get to 300km/h. The way BMW is going, 650HP may mean 40 seconds

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

I'm only comparing it to the new TTS because right off the bat that's the car I can think of that's right under sub 30 seconds for 0-300km/h (and I'm not talking about high speed rolling contest). Ferrari 458 Speciale in Auto Bild's test ran 32.9 seconds, so that's no good, but 488 is way under 30 seconds.

If BMW is keeping the F90 M5 around the 600HP mark or only slightly more, it will not go under 30 seconds for 0-300km/h, even with a 200 pounds weight loss. Two separate test on the RS7 performance model by Auto Bild had it running around 32 seconds (and I am pretty sure Audi is underrated too), so for the new M5 to go under 30 seconds, it will have to make a lot more than 600HP.

Plus keep in mind, what happened when BMW increase current M6's HP from 575 to 600? It got slower, at least two magazine tests (one of which is Auto Bild Sportscars, the very same magazine that did your favorite 30.4) have showed that it now needed 34 seconds + to get to 300km/h. The way BMW is going, 650HP may mean 40 seconds

I don't think this discussion goes anywhere. You are mixing all data together and would not have any intention to accept the fact that:

1. AWD has more drivetrain loss than RWD. Let's say 15% vs 12%. With that said 600 HP AWD is putting the same amount of power on ground a 580 HP RWD car puts.

2. More horse power and less weight means better power to weight ratio cause car faster at higher speeds "IF" the traction is not hurt.

3. Jumping from stationary is different from rolling. You might be right about 0-100 km/h because there is at least 1 second advantage of AWD over RWD when cars want to launch but the actual performance will be seen when it's like 50-300 km/h. To me it's clear that BMW has built a 4250 lb car with 575 HP (factory claim) can go from 50 km/h to 300 km/s in 28.5 second. 0.1 second faster than 911 TTS

I am going to post this picture for the last time here to show the actual performance difference between 4 cars

And I have no idea where you are going to even if 911 is faster than any car in the world in term of 0-300 km/h

http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911274

[M6-Coupe]

Now let's move on

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I don't think this discussion goes anywhere. You are mixing all data together and would not have any intention to accept the fact that:

1. AWD has more drivetrain loss than RWD. Let's say 15% vs 12%. With that said 600 HP AWD is putting the same amount of power on ground a 580 HP RWD car puts.

2. More horse power and less weight means better power to weight ratio cause car faster at higher speeds "IF" the traction is not hurt.

3. Jumping from stationary is different from rolling. You might be right about 0-100 km/h because there is at least 1 second advantage of AWD over RWD when cars want to launch but the actual performance will be seen when it's like 50-300 km/h. To me it's clear that BMW has built a 4250 lb car with 575 HP (factory claim) can go from 50 km/h to 300 km/s in 28.5 second. 0.1 second faster than 911 TTS

I am going to post this picture for the last time here to show the actual performance difference between 4 cars

And I have no idea where you are going to even if 911 is faster than any car in the world in term of 0-300 km/h

http://www.6post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911274

I am not mixing data, I am looking at overall data where as you are just looking at only one data.

It's like a golfer who has a 300 yard drive (but averages 270) but all he talks is his 300 yard drive.

The 30.4 second car is just that, one single test, where as now there are multiple tests (those test results are also posted in this forum somewhere) that showed the M6 is not a 30 second 0-300km/h car. Can you find another test that had the M6 ran 30 seconds?

It's fine if you are sticking with 30.4 but personally I throw out the best and worst times and pick the average as it shows more consistently of what the car can do. So to me the M6 is not a 30 second car, maybe once in a blue moon and all the stars align.

And the M6 is a quicker car than the M5, so new M5 breaks 30 seconds? Just seems unlikely to me.

As for the TTS comparison, no need to read too much into it, I am just saying you are expecting the new M5 will run shoulder to shoulder with it from the dig and all the way to 300km/h.

As for the pix, I know not all of them did 0-300km/h but at least I have two tests that showed M6 Couple and GC needed 34 seconds + to hit 300km/h vs your one test result. And the other four test results? If they can't even break 12 seconds in 0-200km/h, they are not going to be anywhere close to 30 seconds in 0-300km/h. I would like to believe that M5/6 is already a 30 second car even in current form too, but more evidences says otherwise.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Now let's move on

Haha, look, I get what you are saying. Assuming the M6 is a 30 second car as you like to say, and now it has more power and can put it down better via AWD or whatever hybrid system BMW has, why wouldn't it break 30?

I'm just more of a what have you done for me lately kind of guy. And so far the 600HP M6 hasn't proven it can run 30 seconds, and in fact a lot slower at 34+.

You start at 30.4 but I start at 34 seconds + (and I think we can agree that the F10 M5 is slower than the M6.) So the fact that our starting point is so different, it makes it hard to agree. For you it's only a small improvement needed to get under 30, but for me it's a 5 second improvement needed for the new M5 to get under 30.

You can't convince me the M6 is a 30 seconds car anymore than I can convince you it's a 34 seconds + car so yeah let's move on

[Vic55]

oh man Phatcat look what you have done!!!!!!!!


Here comes the retort

[brad850csi]

There is a chance that the 30.4 second car was running a 'press tune' and the other cars were running customer tunes. I note that in the matte black 600ps CP review it says the M6 had 445kw and 725nm - this leads me to believe that they dynode it. But on the 30.4 second car do they mention putting it on a dyno?

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

There is a chance that the 30.4 second car was running a 'press tune' and the other cars were running customer tunes. I note that in the matte black 600ps CP review it says the M6 had 445kw and 725nm - this leads me to believe that they dynode it. But on the 30.4 second car do they mention putting it on a dyno?

I'm not sure why intentionally or unintentionally he doesn't want to get my point. My point is:
Tuned or not tuned "there is a 4250 lb BMW has S63tu engine" can go 0-300 km/h in 30.4 second. Now if BMW reduces the weight of this vehicle (or similar vehicle) and increases the power of S63 engine (or other engine), that car might be able to run faster....
END OF THE RANT