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06-21-2012, 02:27 AM | #45 |
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BMW, I'll tell you why no one buys the M5/M6 with a manual transmissions: the manual transmission was an afterthought on the E60 generation and it was blatantly obvious from the driver's seat. I've had the pleasure of driving every generation of M3 and M5 except for the E30 M3 and E28 M5 and I remember the first time I got behind the wheel of an E60 M5 with the manual transmission and being shocked at how awful the shifter felt. The last 3 cars I've owned have been manual BMWs (non M) so I was expecting the smooth shifts of my cars but the M cars always seemed to have this terrible, notchy, rough shifting feel that slowed down my shifts when I wanted to drive quickly and was even more annoying when I was just cruising around. My brother had an E90 M3 that I spent a lot of time driving and that also had one of the worst manual transmissions I have ever experienced. I just don't get what the problem is, the standard 335i comes with a perfectly fine manual transmission and there are guys running around with 450lb/ft of torque or even more and it doesn't seem to be a weak point so how come you guys can't get it right on the M cars?
The E46 M3 was the last M car I've driven that felt like it was designed with the manual in mind and that is also the last M car I would personally buy with the 6MT. I usually hate any type of automatic transmission but the manuals in the new M cars are so terrible that I would rather have a DCT. |
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06-21-2012, 02:40 AM | #46 |
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I'm a MT big fun as a I love to change the gears a lot.
My opinion is that M5 is too large and too heavy to obtain the best performances with a MT. The situation is completly different when we speak about much more oriented track cars from BMW line-up: M3, 1M, M135i Performance, Z4, future Z2 and so on... |
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06-21-2012, 03:10 AM | #47 | |
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06-21-2012, 03:14 AM | #48 | |
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06-21-2012, 05:26 AM | #50 | |
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And it's not just BMW and Ferrari, Porsche are (deliberately/cynically or not) giving manual drivers pause for thought for the first time - does a 7-speed manual 911 have one gear too many for hand-and-foot shifting? I can guarantee you the ratio of manual/auto for new 911s will increase dramatically. Also, the Stuttgart company has confirmed that for the first time the next GT3 will have a PDK option - that should make one think a bit longer too. |
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06-21-2012, 06:14 AM | #51 | |
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06-21-2012, 07:50 AM | #52 | |
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06-21-2012, 08:29 AM | #53 | |
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But I still think everyone should have options and be able to select what they like. I guess BMW knows whats best for their product but people are correct in saying it would make the M5 less differentiated from other sedans. Then again this is 2018/2019 we're talking about so who knows what will change between now and then. |
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06-21-2012, 08:40 AM | #54 |
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No surprise about this announcement. HATE IT, but hardly surprising.
For me, it doesn't matter how fast or how efficient the new auto transmissions might be (be it DCT, PDK, DSG, etc), they will never provide the driving satisfaction that a manual transmission does (to me at least). No need to panic though. There are PLENTY outstanding manual cars in the used car market, and the best part is that they cost less and less every day. |
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06-21-2012, 09:17 AM | #55 |
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Not the first time they said this. Remember that the E60 M5 wasn't going to have a manual either, and BMW made it happen at the last minute due to an outcry from the US market. And now we're on our 2nd M5 model since they said they wouldn't have one. And now they're saying they won't have one for the 3rd revision from when they first said we wouldn't have one.
I don't really care, but I wish M5 buyers had their choice. It's not an interesting car to me anymore; I've always wanted an E39 M5, but the bigger cars don't interest me. Now that the F30 is E39 size, it seems just right. So that's probably the answer -- when the next M5 comes out in 2018 or whatever, but an M3 instead -- it'll be plenty big, and have a stick! As everyone else has pointed out, it's not about shifting speed or MPG (on an M5.. really??) It's simply a blast to drive a stick. I can't bring myself to drive a boring-ass automatic or DCT, I'd find driving miserable. I enjoy doing things that exercise my muscle memory and exhibit skill. Every time I hop on the motorcycle, even if I haven't ridden in 6 months, I can rev match and bang down thru the gears like I did it yesterday... or typing when I really get into a groove and can fly over the keys.. It's such an ENJOYABLE feeling. It's like asking why you'd want to drive on the track when you just go in circles and end up where you started. Those who get it, get it. |
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06-21-2012, 09:29 AM | #57 |
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I guess some (not many) M5 owners will have to go slumming on the M3 side of the showroom.
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06-21-2012, 09:34 AM | #58 |
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They are talking about the NEXT Gen M5 (2018/2019). Which is just silly, because I'm pretty sure they are not making decisions like that this far out.
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06-21-2012, 09:52 AM | #59 | |
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In Europe about 80% of cars are manual transmissions; hell, one of the tour buses I was on in Italy had an 8-speed manual. The reason is that cars are a hell of a lot more expensive pretty much everywhere else in the world, so the marginal cost of anything except a traditional manual is MUCH more significant there -- so most people get manual. And consequently, pretty much everyone everywhere outside the US knows how to drive stick, so it's not seen as some sort of enthusiast Jedi power the way it is here. In fact the non-US enthusiasts and wealthier people are almost always driving SMG/PDK/DCT if their cars can be ordered thusly, because not only would they not impress anybody by driving driving stick, but having the "faster, more advanced, (usually) more expensive" transmission there is a status symbol, so that's the alternative they pick.
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06-21-2012, 10:00 AM | #60 | |
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06-21-2012, 10:01 AM | #61 | |
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And sorry, DSG/DCT/PDK etc are all very good and highly impressive engineering achievements, but they don't provide the same enjoyment. Sometimes constant perfection can be addictive and awesome, but other times there's a lot more fun to be had in relentlessly pursuing the perfectly smooth upshift or heel-toe rev-matched downshift executed by YOU every time, and feeling like a hero on the few occasions where you get it exactly right. It's like the joy of learning a craft, where you get more out of it as you invest more time and effort into it. My M3 is my first manual transmission car and I don't see myself going back any time soon. Just my 2 cents.
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06-21-2012, 10:04 AM | #62 | |
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The older I get, the more enjoyment I find in shifting manually. I love the DCT's also but I don't get the same enjoyment out of them... apart from the throttle blipping. Having a size 16 shoe will really cramp your style when trying to execute a heel toe downshift! |
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06-21-2012, 10:10 AM | #63 |
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Clearly this is just a matter of supply and demand, not really engineering.
Perhaps the early communication of this is to let everyone have a good long time to bitch and complain and get it out of their system way before the next generation comes out. As I grow older, I'm more likely to migrate to an M6, but I'm pretty sure I'll never buy it with a DCT. So perhaps all roads will finally lead to Porsche. Porsche would never do this to its customers, but then again Porsche is a true sports car. .
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06-21-2012, 10:16 AM | #64 | |
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06-21-2012, 10:21 AM | #65 |
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Only reason I can think of is the cost of developing the MT - is it passed off onto the overall cost of the car? If it is, then I'd prefer them just do DCT since I'm getting it anyways and save some coin. Granted at $100k, I doubt BMW is worried about keeping pricing low anyways.
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06-21-2012, 10:34 AM | #66 | |
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