are intakes really worth it - Chime In

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

I mean airflow reported by the MAF. I thought an aftermarket intake would prove to be better than stock if the MAF reported more KG/H of air being consumed by turbos/engine.

If my stock intake with my tune reports 1050 kg/h and an aftermarket intake reports maybe 1075 kg/h with the same tune, then obviously an aftermarket intake would be worth it...

Am I missing something?

In theory, you're not missing anything - given everything else is equal.

The measurement of air coming through the MAF is irrespective of boost pressure.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

In theory, you're not missing anything - given everything else is equal.

The measurement of air coming through the MAF is irrespective of boost pressure.

Perfect. Whats interesting to see is if the filters i ordered (k&n) allow more air to flow through the maf and into turbo/engine.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

Perfect. Whats interesting to see is if the filters i ordered (k&n) allow more air to flow through the maf and into turbo/engine.

That's a better test - because flow stability and characteristics would be much more similar than if the actual airboxes/intake hardware were changed.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

That's a better test - because flow stability and characteristics would be much more similar than if the actual airboxes/intake hardware were changed.

Will report back

[Spinny02]

Intakes are a must.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Spinny02

Intakes are a must.

Have to disagree here.. the stock air boxes are pretty good.

[josec70]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Have to disagree here.. the stock air boxes are pretty good.

What he said ....

[Spinny02]

Originally Posted by josec70

What he said ....

Go listen to a car with Dinan or MSR Intakes. There is no comparison. It's night and day.

The stock boxes are good... but there are much better out there.

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

1. We are talking PRE-turbo... there is no 'boost'
2. May want to revisit the Ideal Gas Law (PV=nRT)

Pre-turbo and post turbo mass flow is the same. If you're controlling density into the engine with wastegates, why would your mass flow change because you changed intakes. If your statement with "flowing more" is true, i'd like to understand where this is showing up in the mass flow equation. You're not changing density, you're not changing area, velocity is dictated by the turbo(which isn't commanding any more than before). The outlet side of the turbo mass flow is constant because wastegate duty cycle controls it.

So i ask again, how are you "flowing more."

You've shifted along the efficiency curve on a forced induction application, you never flowed more. The pumping loss benefit with the wastegate being open more is where the benefit comes from, the intakes reduction in delta pressure is what drove that change.

-R

[allmotor_2000]

I give up... again offer is there if you want to send me an intake and I will dyno compared to stock airbox, open intake etc.

To this day I don’t believe any 3rd party has done an independent (and published) test of any intake.

If anybody is really standing by their product the deliver advertised gains I would be happy to evaluate and provide an unbiased opinion.

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

I give up... again offer is there if you want to send me an intake and I will dyno compared to stock airbox, open intake etc.

To this day I don’t believe any 3rd party has done an independent (and published) test of any intake.

If anybody is really standing by their product the deliver advertised gains I would be happy to evaluate and provide an unbiased opinion.

You threw an equation at me and i gave you a high level response, then you defaulted to giving up. I'll wait for your response on why the mass flow is different before and after the compressor if the mass flow in the combustion chamber never changed.

Basic laws of thermo, m5post is rewriting them apparently.

There's no testing needed, this is basic engine engineering. Anyone with an OEM engine testing background and a fluid flow understanding will attest to this.

-R

[onfireX5]

"Pre-turbo and post turbo mass flow is the same. If you're controlling density into the engine with wastegates"

Interesting comments.

So on a 100F ambient day the mass airflow is the same pre turbo and after turbo if an aftermarket res is ice packed and the pressurized airflow entering the manifold is 60F ?

Wastegates are generally psi based.....how do they measure air density ? you can have low density and high density at the same psi.

Just curious....

[edysinger]

Originally Posted by Sales@RKautowerks

Pre-turbo and post turbo mass flow is the same. If you're controlling density into the engine with wastegates, why would your mass flow change because you changed intakes. If your statement with "flowing more" is true, i'd like to understand where this is showing up in the mass flow equation. You're not changing density, you're not changing area, velocity is dictated by the turbo(which isn't commanding any more than before). The outlet side of the turbo mass flow is constant because wastegate duty cycle controls it.

So i ask again, how are you "flowing more."

You've shifted along the efficiency curve on a forced induction application, you never flowed more. The pumping loss benefit with the wastegate being open more is where the benefit comes from, the intakes reduction in delta pressure is what drove that change.

-R

You are missing the equation "turbo efficiency" to answer your question.The ratio of P1/P2 impacts the volume flow out of your turbo based on the same inlet air temperature and boost. Reduce the inlet depression of your intake and your P1/P2 ratio changes increasing your volume flow. I already proved this with real world data in another post. Any turbo manufacterer has compressor maps to help you understand this these ratios versus volume flow.

[josec70]

Originally Posted by Spinny02

Go listen to an car with a Dinan or MSR Intake. There is no comparison. It's night and day.

The stock boxes are good... but there are much better out there.

No disagreement there’s better sounding intakes. With that said, no performance gains when comparing MSR / Dinan to a charcoal delete and K&N’s. At least none that anyone has been able to quantify.

[Sales@RKautowerks]

Originally Posted by edysinger

You are missing the equation "turbo efficiency" to answer your question.The ratio of P1/P2 impacts the volume flow out of your turbo based on the same inlet air temperature and boost. Reduce the inlet depression of your intake and your P1/P2 ratio changes increasing your volume flow. I already proved this with real world data in another post. Any turbo manufacterer has compressor maps to help you understand this these ratios versus volume flow.

Yes this is what i forgot, let me dig further into this. It's been a while since i've had to think about this stuff. But thank you for bringing it up.

Unfortunately the only manufacturers that have compressors maps are ones that sell to OEM. I have almost never been able to get an aftermarket compressor with a map. Not sure how more people don't ask, but it is what it is.

-R

[allmotor_2000]

If the stock box w/K&N is impeding volume of air (pick coldest day sea level), then an open filter may help. Beyond modeling this next best thing is to test. We need to keep in mind the debate is comparing the stock box w/K&N to other aftermarket options.

Leave this thought with everybody.

Take two straws of the same diameter. One is 6” long, the other is 24” long and has a few 90-degree bends. Start blowing (or sucking depending on your preference) through both and see if it’s more challenging with either.

If you want to see the math behind pressure drops due to boundary layers and frictional losses, just plug in some numbers here.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pr...pes-d_852.html

[RPiM5]

Entertaining thread. I have no dog in this fight (yet): but after personally speaking with Steve Dinan myself on the phone, I find that the Dinan Intake System is one of the more legitimate systems, although pricey.

As allmotor_2000 stated, the stock system is very well designed and probably shouldn't be messed with, however Dinan took the stock intake design a bit further. The biggest thing to note with the Dinan system is that the stock system virtually remains unchanged and completely functional, since it is already that good. Instead Dinan added to the system instead of redesigning it, ensuring that not only cold air enters the intake but more cold air. After speaking with Steve Dinan on the phone, he told me that the biggest problem with intakes, is trying to seriously keep the heat out.

I'm not sure how effective other intakes (MSR, Gruppe M, AFE) are at keeping the heat out, but the stock system works very well.

Happy debating/arguing.

Benefits of Dinans Cold Air Intake:

+ Dinan proprietary Injection molded Dinan MAF housings are larger than stock
+ Stock air filters are replaced with 77% larger Dinan conical air filters.
+ Entire Dinan Intake system is sealed like a factory replacement to ensure only cold outside air and not hot air from the engine compartment is being utilized.
+ Stock System Stays Completely Functional
+ Carbon fiber air box lids and intake ducts

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

I give up... again offer is there if you want to send me an intake and I will dyno compared to stock airbox, open intake etc.

To this day I don’t believe any 3rd party has done an independent (and published) test of any intake.

If anybody is really standing by their product the deliver advertised gains I would be happy to evaluate and provide an unbiased opinion.

I have to agree here, why don't vendors just send allmotor intakes to evaluate, I mean he is basically offering to do it for free.

Yes theory is nice but shouldn't actual results matters more?

[TheHouseWon]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

I have to agree here, why don't vendors just send allmotor intakes to evaluate, I mean he is basically offering to do it for free.

Yes theory is nice but shouldn't actual results matters more?

MSR had a bunch of data and shaved off .1 or .2 off his 1/4. He also increased boost by 1 psi and cut his 60-130. I think he claimed 40 rwhp.

[bm5bullit]

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

MSR had a bunch of data and shaved off .1 or .2 off his 1/4. He also increased boost by 1 psi and cut his 60-130. I think he claimed 40 rwhp.

Here we go again and again I did verify MSR's claim on the Hammer Performance Dyno in my area. There are two qualifiers for my results though. The first is that I also have the AMS catted DP's along with the MSR CAI. On a summer day, I put down 594 rwhp on my best run on their dyno. How much is due to the AMS DP's and how much to the CAI - I will side with the MSR results. Anyone that doesn't believe what just an intake can do on a performance motor should look up all the research and dyno pulls that were done by HALLTECH when they perfected the CAI for the C5 ZO6. Had one of the first ones when they came out and many Vette forum members verified the dyno results. Well engineered CAI and I believe it was worth 25 rwhp. By the way, I did post the dyno results here from 2 years ago and I got a lot of haters and doubters when I posted. I am going to dyno my car again soon as I am having Hammer install my SSP trans upgrade parts if anyone wants to witness. The BPM is next after that.

Not taking anything away from your own personal commitment and research to the M5 beast, Allmotor, but I do know and feel the difference.

[bm5bullit]

Originally Posted by Spinny02

Intakes are a must.

Absolutely siding with you on this one.

[allmotor_2000]

Nobody is arguing if modified intakes make power or not. I have verified that the stock box with charcoal and OEM filters is restrictive.

We are using the stock box w/charcoal delete and K&N as the baseline. This gains around 10-15whp depending on supporting mods.

Any gains from other intakes that cost more than the $100 required above needs to be substantial to validate the cost delta.

So to the OP - yes intakes are a must, but for most of the folks in the 700-800hp range, modified stock system appears to provide the best value.

Personally I place $0 value on sound, but that’s my own preference.