F10 M5 compared to the 2016 CTS-V

[Kayani_1]

Dear sir you are talking to a guy who has owned everything from BMW 3 series to BMW 7 series in past 18 years of owning cars. Mostly bought BMW as I am a big BMW fan boy myself.

I have to tell you that the experiences I had with my numerous BMWs as far as reliability go are worse than anything I have ever experienced with any other brand. Most recently on my E92 N54 335i the BMW was taken to class action law suit to admit there were issues with turbo here is a link for you to check

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/12/c...afe-causes-un/

also not to mention that back in the days when the BMW 745i first came out and was desire of every rappers video it was full of flaws with its newly introduced i-drive to the extent that it drove me and many owners crazy. A $100K 7 series would spend more time in the dealership than in peoples driveways while they drove around in rentals. I at a time had rentals for nearly 1 month. I can go on and on but ill stop.

Lets just leave it at this that BMW is far from one of the most reliable automakers out there.

Originally Posted by MacOSR

With all due respect how is this story...

I owned the first generation CTS-V. I didn't drive it much. I owned an E60 M5 at the same time. within a few thousand miles I started having problems with the rear end in the car. It was found that the differential casing had a crack in it and it was leaking fluid. GM was denying the warranty stating that I had "abused the car."

I've owned high performance cars all my life. This car was babied and never ran hard...let alone abused. So, I did my own research and found the specifications for the differential that was chosen for the CTS-V at the time. What I found was that the specifications for maximum torque were far exceeded by the CTS-V. It wasn't until I presented proof to the dealership, who was working hard to get the car warrantied for me, that GM agreed to warranty the differential "just one time."

I could share other service and warranty problems that I had but that was about sums up my Cadillac experience.

Are the numbers impressive? Yes

Will they sell? Yes

Will I buy one? No way!

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by swanson

The current M5 started its cycle as a 2013 model. The competition pkge came the following year. That is only one year. The typical time frame for german cars to get refreshed is 3-4yrs after initial release. That, to me, is rushing to fix the problem. Even initial reviews for the M5 were not favorable other then its straight line speed.

Officially went on sale in 2011. Maybe the North American market had it listed as a 2013 but the F10 M5 officially started in 2011 so the 3 year time frame is still applicable like the E92 M3 - ZCP being released one year for the NA market is just a coincidence and not a corrective action like you seem to believe.

[DASHOCKER]

Ill take the ats v on aesthetics over cts v.

[BMWonlyZone]

Suggestion - GM/Govt Motors design team should learn to say the following:

"OK; That's enough! Stop decorating it now!"

[BMWonlyZone]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Dear sir you are talking to a guy who has owned everything from BMW 3 series to BMW 7 series in past 18 years of owning cars. Mostly bought BMW as I am a big BMW fan boy myself.

I have to tell you that the experiences I had with my numerous BMWs as far as reliability go are worse than anything I have ever experienced with any other brand. Most recently on my E92 N54 335i the BMW was taken to class action law suit to admit there were issues with turbo here is a link for you to check

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/12/c...afe-causes-un/

also not to mention that back in the days when the BMW 745i first came out and was desire of every rappers video it was full of flaws with its newly introduced i-drive to the extent that it drove me and many owners crazy. A $100K 7 series would spend more time in the dealership than in peoples driveways while they drove around in rentals. I at a time had rentals for nearly 1 month. I can go on and on but ill stop.

Lets just leave it at this that BMW is far from one of the most reliable automakers out there.

15 BMW's in the past 25 years, all new. Here's my advice: Lease it, enjoy it, and give it back before the warranty ends. Old BMW's are money-sucks. Dumb to own one unless you know how to work on it.

Rule of thumb...if it needs a 50K service, it needs to be traded in ASAP.

Simple, then repeat.

[Falcao]

"GM is not a COMPETITOR of anything.

GM went out of business because they have an inferior, low quality product. Match that with a business model that is/was absolutely guaranteed to fail, closing up shop was inevitable for them. Let's not forget, they did indeed go out of business.

Now, just because a Marxist (aligned with an equally radical Union), stole the company from the share holders for themselves, doesn't make them a now "successful and competing" company. If not for the billions they also stole from us (the taxpaying members of our society), they would be a distant memory at this point.

We have a thriving automotive industry in this country that informed people cannot deny. The long-coming failure of GM was appropriate and overdue. Moreover, they operate under the same failed business model they always did, with the same inferior product even today. It's just a matter of time until we watch this all play out again. Hopefully next time the climate will be unfriendly and we can put an end to this insanity once and for all.

No, they are not a competitor of BMW, or MB, or anyone else. Competition is the trademark of Capitalism. The "re-org" at GM certainly was not."

BMWonlyZone. are you high or something
Marxist, communist, union.. blah blah.. should you not be posting in politico or some other site about politics. Most importantly, what does all that diatribe have to do with GM producing a decent car (i think it is still fugly) but the car that will most likely decimate the BMW M5. Why is that so hard to admit.

[acr-c]

I'm very interested to see how the V runs. I'm sure it will be fast right out of the box. Much quicker and faster than a stock F10 M5. However, we are already seeing some of the issues with the new Z06 and heat soak. Those issues may disrupt the overall experience on the street with the new V.

As a guy that has owned E39, E60 and F10 M5s as well as a first-gen and second-gen CTS-V, I think I have a pretty good idea about what these cars stand for. First of all, in contrast to one of the prior posts, people definitely DO cross-shop these cars. They are both extremely capable, classy rides. Neither is a car that will get booted out of most garages. None of my clients, for example, have ever gotten into either a V or an M5 that I've owned and said, "Gee, this car is a cheap POS."

The biggest drawback for me with the V is going to be the interior design/material composition and the infotainment system. The M5 simply has a much more elegant and functional design. Further the leather, aluminum, carbon fiber, etc. in the V will still not be at the same level (or even close most likely) to the M5.

I have had Cadillac Escalades for the last several family SUVs as well. ALL have been Platinum Edition rides with real wood and aluminum trim everywhere unlike all other Escalades. Additionally, the Platinum gets special leather on the seats, dash and door panels. Still, the materials are no match for, say, a Range Rover. It's just the way it is. The Escalade doesn't cost nearly what the RR does and that shows in certain ways.

The V interior vs the M5 interior will yield the same comparison results.

The i-Drive in the M5 is also a vastly superior system to the CUE in the new V. The voice control is better and the fact that the Caddy doesn't have a wheel-style controller on the center console is a huge detractor for me. The CUE requires a lot of touch operation on the touch screen on the dashboard. That doesn't work for me.

Again, the V will be a beast. The 2 biggest issues for me though are the reasons I sold my last 2 V series cars. (Maybe I'll still go for a new V but I won't like those issues and I will end up selling the car as a result again, I'm sure. LOL.) The performance of the 2 cars isn't too much of an issue for me, however, since I have no problem modding my cars anyway. I look at the performance like this: If we get the real tuning solution for the M5 shortly (like I've been reading in a lot of posts) then 750 hp will be easy. Modding the V with a pulley, long tubes, snout and tuning will likely net closer to 800 hp. Will the 2 modded cars still run each other heads-up in a driver's race? I think so. For me, the performance will nearly be the same. The bigger issues of the interior and driver interface are heavily tilted in the M5's direction.

Christian

[RPiM5]

Just saw this. Talks about some of the engineering in the new V.

http://m.caranddriver.com/flipbook/1...cadillac-cts-v

There's nothing innovative over the F10 M5 in regards to engineering in the new V. If GM designed some sort of new Hybrid Assist Drive Train with light battery technology, or an all new 8 or 10 speed DCT, or some sort of new turbo engine design like Mercedes uses in their F1 cars, or some form of Active Aerodynamics, or heck even just designed their own supercharged engine from the ground up instead of throwing the LT4 in there, then I'd be very impressed. The new CTS-V is formulaic in that it doesn't present us with anything new and innovative, it just gives the consumer more for less money. With the next generation M5, I am baffled about what kind of engine it might use, and that is an exciting and exotic formula. I seriously doubt that it will be another Twin Turbo V8. BMW had never used the same engine setup from one generation to the next with the exception of the X5M/X6M. The new CTS-V will be fast but not the whole package like the M5 is. The F10 M5 has the unofficial title as being the Private Jet for the highways and streets, in that context the new CTS-V is a militarized aircraft, with luxury having no place in the combat environment.

I'm not saying the new V is a bad car, because it's clearly not. In fact I'm pretty sure it's going to beat stock Comp Pack M5 in some metrics. It's just it uses brute force solutions instead of innovation to overcome sports sedan problems. I'm personally looking forward to testing driving the new V myself and making a better comparison against the M5.

[BlkD12agon]

Look forward to the head to head review videos that come out on these two vehicles. I am happy to see an American car company seriously try to compete with the Germans. If they made the V fun and exciting to drive then everyone wins.

[greentrbo95gst]

I just read the review of the new z06, which will share its power plant with the new V. at $105k, the reviewer said nothing else in the world compares to the performance of that car. I assume they are talking about performance and handling and i am pretty sure they are right on the spot. I always look at two things that interest me in particular, 0-60 and 1/4 mile, which were 3.2 and 11.3 respectively. Then i compare it to my best whihc was 3.1 and 11 flat. After that I bring the new v inthe the picture and think about the company's strategy. For one, the V cannot outperform the zo6 and two, the power plant in the V is supposed to be slightly de-tuned, which means that the car might be in the 3.6-3.8 and 11.5-11.7 . With that said our f10 m5 should still be able to outperform the V if we can keep up or even pull ahead of the z06. Thoughts?

[chong0]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Just saw this. Talks about some of the engineering in the new V.

http://m.caranddriver.com/flipbook/1...cadillac-cts-v

There's nothing innovative over the F10 M5 in regards to engineering in the new V. If GM designed some sort of new Hybrid Assist Drive Train with light battery technology, or an all new 8 or 10 speed DCT, or some sort of new turbo engine design like Mercedes uses in their F1 cars, or some form of Active Aerodynamics, or heck even just designed their own supercharged engine from the ground up instead of throwing the LT4 in there, then I'd be very impressed. The new CTS-V is formulaic in that it doesn't present us with anything new and innovative, it just gives the consumer more for less money. With the next generation M5, I am baffled about what kind of engine it might use, and that is an exciting and exotic formula. I seriously doubt that it will be another Twin Turbo V8. BMW had never used the same engine setup from one generation to the next with the exception of the X5M/X6M. The new CTS-V will be fast but not the whole package like the M5 is. The F10 M5 has the unofficial title as being the Private Jet for the highways and streets, in that context the new CTS-V is a militarized aircraft, with luxury having no place in the combat environment.

I'm not saying the new V is a bad car, because it's clearly not. In fact I'm pretty sure it's going to beat stock Comp Pack M5 in some metrics. It's just it uses brute force solutions instead of innovation to overcome sports sedan problems. I'm personally looking forward to testing driving the new V myself and making a better comparison against the M5.

it's funny that you mention the ctsv this way. road and track essentially used the same words when talking about the m3 during its performance car of the year review.

I will definitely test drive the new cadillac but I agree with other posters just walking into a cadillac dealership is a completely different dynamic compared to the bmw experience. not worse but just very different.

my other issue is that I wonder if owning a ctsv is similar to my Volvo experience. i loved my s60r but because they were so limited in comparison to all the v70s that the dealer did not have much experience in repairing this...always was a commotion.

[vladberca]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Why does it have to be serious u want serious and boring car get the regular cts or any 5 series. The M cars or V cars should look the part no sedated boring styling to make 60 years old happy.

We're talking here about sporty business sedans, not civic type r alike cars! This could be also a different perspective about cars between Europeans and Americans

[h4nh]

Originally Posted by BMWonlyZone

15 BMW's in the past 25 years, all new. Here's my advice: Lease it, enjoy it, and give it back before the warranty ends. Old BMW's are money-sucks. Dumb to own one unless you know how to work on it.

Rule of thumb...if it needs a 50K service, it needs to be traded in ASAP.

Simple, then repeat.

This is true. After no warranty on bmw's a headache. I face palm when people ask me about buying a used M car on a budget. lol

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst

I just read the review of the new z06, which will share its power plant with the new V. at $105k, the reviewer said nothing else in the world compares to the performance of that car. I assume they are talking about performance and handling and i am pretty sure they are right on the spot. I always look at two things that interest me in particular, 0-60 and 1/4 mile, which were 3.2 and 11.3 respectively. Then i compare it to my best whihc was 3.1 and 11 flat. After that I bring the new v inthe the picture and think about the company's strategy. For one, the V cannot outperform the zo6 and two, the power plant in the V is supposed to be slightly de-tuned, which means that the car might be in the 3.6-3.8 and 11.5-11.7 . With that said our f10 m5 should still be able to outperform the V if we can keep up or even pull ahead of the z06. Thoughts?

Modded CTS-Vs are fairly quick/fast. Because of aftermarket support (and a displacement gap) the M5 will have a very hard time keeping up at the drag strip with modded CTS-Vs.

- 9.1@152

- The same car running 8.9

There are loads of CTS-Vs in the 10's.

The domestics (CTS-V relative to M5) are cheaper to purchase, easier to work on, have greater aftermarket support, and are cheaper to mod. Making a big sedan run 9's requires much more than just power. For example the F10 would likely need upgraded axles which to my knowledge don't exist (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Most of this thread has focused on styling and interior quality. Exterior styling is entirely subjective. The advantage of the F10 is in fact in the quality of the interior. The F10 interior is very nice.

[kunal_d]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Who cares the 6.2 liter V8 is more compact, weighs less, and more densely packed than the 4.4 liter BMW V8 all the while achieving great gas mileage. So what is your point.

The point is , why pay all that money for an outdated engine, when you can have something that has even better fuel economy and is a much more sophisticated piece of engineering

This is not even taking into account that hideous styling. I mean you'd have to look at it every time you get into it.

[nabizzy]

For me personally, speed isn't everything, even if the CTS is faster, just the experience of owning an M car, and being in that whole M club so to speak makes the M5 better. Again, that might just be me chiming in.

[Northern X5M]

Originally Posted by kunal_d

The point is , why pay all that money for an outdated engine, when you can have something that has even better fuel economy and is a much more sophisticated piece of engineering

This is not even taking into account that hideous styling. I mean you'd have to look at it every time you get into it.

Saying GM's 6.2l is outdated is pure ignorance.

I want to love the CTS-V because they are so easy to mod but I just do not like the new styling at all. I did cross shop V's before I bought my first M5. I just could not get over the interior. The Gen 2 V's do have a very nice exterior though.

[nynd]

I echo your thoughts NorthernX5M. I've had the Gen2 V and thought it was a blast for the price you pay. The GEN 3 is obviously going to be more costly than what it's replacing simply because the normal CTS (Gen 3) went up in price as well. The GEN 3 has a nice aggressive front end but the rear end seems to lack appeal. Maybe when they start hitting the road and you see them, that will change - never know. They are cross shopped - no question. It all comes down to budget and what you like and don't personally like.

[pank11]

I have a soft spot in my heart for the new CTS-V, I did in fact own one before I got into my M5. I had every intention of jumping back into one after my lease is up but I just don't think I will be able to do it. The thing that pisses me off the most about the new Cadillacs is the Cue system......I think it's a horrible infotainment system. I don't think from a performance standpoint that the M5 will be to far behind it. The advantage that the V will have will probably be the aftermarket offering. Time will tell......I can't wait until the weather breaks to see all of the new high power cars making their way to the market. It's just a great time to be a car guy, it's got me excited!

[ChrisNich117]

The wonders a company can accomplish with a few years of reverse engineering, no cafe law restrictions, and a strategically scheduled life cycle.

[dan99]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...rvette-feature

[boots]

Originally Posted by nabizzy

For me personally, speed isn't everything, even if the CTS is faster, just the experience of owning an M car, and being in that whole M club so to speak makes the M5 better. Again, that might just be me chiming in.

Totally agree with you bizz