M5POST
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   M5POST - BMW M5 Forum > F10 M5 Forum > BMW M5 (F10) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-06-2013, 06:51 PM   #1
dapperdan
New Member
dapperdan's Avatar
Canada
4
Rep
20
Posts

Drives: '22 F90 LCI M5
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Does the M5 have too much torque?

In deciding what car to get I was questioning if the F10 M5 had too much torque. That is, is there any point during regular city/highway driving where the car is NOT traction limited. I would be very interested in everybody's opinion.

I am taking delivery of my M5 next week and can report some first hand info then. I ordered the car based on test driving it and its competitors, loved it, and loved the torque, but got to wondering if it was all needed other than at the track.

So, being a computer type, I wrote a little acceleration simulator in Perl. It models all the following
  • Engine torque curve
  • Drivetrain losses
  • Gear ratio
  • Drag
  • Downforce
  • Rolling resistance
  • Estimate of inertial mass of rotating parts
  • Weight transfer to back during acceleration
  • Traction
My understanding of the way that traction works is that for a decent road tire and with good use of the accelerator, the tire can push forward with about the same force as the downwards weight on the driving tires. An F1 car can do way better than this, and bad tires on a bad surface way less.

When the car is accelerating full out, weight transfers to the back. My modelling tells me about 66% heads towards the back. Given the car and passenger is about 4400 pounds, and downforce adds relatively little until high speed, that means the car is limited to pushing forwards with only about 4400*66% = 3000 pounds of force. Given the gear ratios and such, my little simulator says that almost right around 100 km/h (2nd gear @ 6000 RPM) all the engine torque can be put down on the pavement.

Once you shift to 3rd, the driving force on the tires at the highest part of the torque curve is about half the weight of the car, so you are golden in 3rd.

So that means when cruising down the highway at about 100 km/h in 3rd gear (a very regular happening), we are no longer traction limited and so, no, the M5 does not have too much torque! Phew!

Does your practical experience jibe with this?
__________________

BMW 2022 F90 LCI M5 Competition, Aventurine Red Metallic, Tartufo Extended Merino Leather, Ultimate Package
See my M5 Car Blog at http://m5carblog.blogspot.com
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2013, 07:15 PM   #2
RPiM5
Major General
RPiM5's Avatar
2853
Rep
7,883
Posts

Drives: Mexico Blue F10 M5(Mika)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego

iTrader: (0)

I've spun the tires in 4th gear with DSC ON going UP hill when I still had my F10 M5 stock. Yes it has a lot of torque. Also read my signature.
__________________


Appreciate 0
      02-06-2013, 07:58 PM   #3
mindlessmark07
Lieutenant
mindlessmark07's Avatar
47
Rep
565
Posts

Drives: 2013 F10 M5
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Orange County CA

iTrader: (0)

There is no such thing as too much torque. Its the best feeling in the world to know its there whenever you want it. You will love your new M5!
__________________

MindlessMark07
///2013 M5 Alpine White/Black,Orange County CA\\\
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2013, 08:13 PM   #4
emmfive
Lieutenant
emmfive's Avatar
74
Rep
571
Posts

Drives: 2001 M5
Join Date: May 2012
Location: CA

iTrader: (1)

I also have conducted a thorough scientific analysis, and have concluded with 99.97% certainty that torque is fun.
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2013, 08:27 PM   #5
PatrickC23
Colonel
PatrickC23's Avatar
United_States
182
Rep
2,245
Posts

Drives: '16 991.1 911 GTS, '16 F85 X5M
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NNJ

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 BMW ///M5  [0.00]
Does the M5 have partial DSC? The C63 has three dsc settings. Fully on, partially on, or off. I do find that with DSC on i always spin the tires and kick dsc on in first. Does the M5 come with a "fun" mode that also corrects wheels spin when it feels it needs to?
__________________
2016 991.1 911 Carrera GTS
2016 F85 X5M - Carbon Black/Mugello Red
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2013, 08:45 PM   #6
AGS
Major
AGS's Avatar
496
Rep
1,396
Posts

Drives: 2022 M5 Competition
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patsc23 View Post
Does the M5 have partial DSC? The C63 has three dsc settings. Fully on, partially on, or off. I do find that with DSC on i always spin the tires and kick dsc on in first. Does the M5 come with a "fun" mode that also corrects wheels spin when it feels it needs to?
Yes, its called M Dynamic Mode (MDM). Here's the excerpt from the manual describing MDM:

M Dynamic Mode MDM

M Dynamic Mode makes it possible to drive on
a dry roadway with high longitudinal and transverse
acceleration but with limited driving stability.
Only in the absolute limit area does the system
intervene for stabilization by reducing the engine
power and by braking interventions on the
wheels. In this driving condition, additional
steering corrections may be necessary.

Limited stabilizing interventions
When M Dynamic Mode is activated, stabilizing
interventions are carried out only to a reduced
extent. You must react yourself; otherwise,
there is the danger of an accident
occurring.◀

To increase vehicle stability, activate DSC again
as soon as possible.
__________________
Current: 2022 Donnington Grey M5 Competition, 2014 Anvil WW Jeep Wrangler
Previous: 2019 Donnington Grey M5 Competition, 2016 Silverstone M5 CP, 2013 Monte Carlo Blue M5 CP (ED on 9/1/12), 2009 Carbon Black M5, 2006 Silverstone M5, 2003 Sterling Grey M5, 2000 Anthracite 540i6, 1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9Ltd, 1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD, 1978 Mazda RX-7
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2013, 09:00 PM   #7
dapperdan
New Member
dapperdan's Avatar
Canada
4
Rep
20
Posts

Drives: '22 F90 LCI M5
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
I've spun the tires in 4th gear with DSC ON going UP hill when I still had my F10 M5 stock. Yes it has a lot of torque. Also read my signature.
I think there is even less traction going up hill because there is not as much weight pushing directly down on the road. I mean, if you were going up a 90 degree wall you'd get no traction at all
__________________

BMW 2022 F90 LCI M5 Competition, Aventurine Red Metallic, Tartufo Extended Merino Leather, Ultimate Package
See my M5 Car Blog at http://m5carblog.blogspot.com
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2013, 09:02 PM   #8
uhn2000
Big K...
uhn2000's Avatar
Canada
170
Rep
1,717
Posts

Drives: M3CS BX7
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Torque is nuts but its so much fun even in a scary way - reminds of my recently sold K1300R motorbike, way too much power for the street. I have never driven a car that is this brutal on instant demand. Yes too fast for the street but its just one of those things where you know you won't use all the power but its nice to know its there ?!?!
__________________
Many fun toys... M3CS XB7 FTW!
Appreciate 0
      02-06-2013, 09:32 PM   #9
kiwistu
First Lieutenant
New Zealand
32
Rep
327
Posts

Drives: Black F82 M3
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

My new M5 feels nearly as touquey as the 335d I had. Now that was a monster!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 12:18 AM   #10
mainly
Lieutenant
Canada
41
Rep
563
Posts

Drives: 991 GT3, '12 CLS63 Kleemann K3
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Edmonton alberta, canada.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mindlessmark07 View Post
There is no such thing as too much torque. Its the best feeling in the world to know its there whenever you want it. You will love your new M5!

well its not REALLY there whenever you want it.
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 01:21 AM   #11
Rob///M5
Major
Rob///M5's Avatar
76
Rep
1,341
Posts

Drives: 2013 M5 SSII
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 BMW M5  [10.00]
<edit>

Torque goooood. Moar torque.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 01:35 AM   #12
krispykreme
First Lieutenant
46
Rep
339
Posts

Drives: e90 328i
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Mission SJ CA

iTrader: (0)

Torque is what made F10 M5 stands out over the E60.

I love torque. The more the better.
__________________
-13 F10 M5 6MT (Amazonite Silver)
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 03:06 AM   #13
UniqueCheese
Second Lieutenant
United Kingdom
20
Rep
210
Posts

Drives: Was: F10 M5, Now: Ford F150
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (1)

I regularly get to tinker with cars that have 800 to 1200 ft-lb of torque. I don't play with the big boys that run up to 5000 or so ft-lbs, maybe more, I don't actually know. The point is, when you ask a drag racer what happened while they're stood there holding a driveshaft the resembles a pretzel their answer is always the same. It's never "too much torque", it's always "too much grip".

There's no such thing as too much torque, there's only too much grip, or not moderating your use of it properly. Learn to use the tools you've paid for properly and maintain them right and everything will be fine. That applies to more than just this car.
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 06:37 AM   #14
boots
Curve Thrasher
boots's Avatar
620
Rep
3,773
Posts

Drives: 2013 Bmw m5..White/Blk.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Cypress Tx

iTrader: (0)

I love it when I nail it from 1st to 2nd and it slides, then the same from 2nd to 3rd and it slides. Yep dsc kicks in but that is the fun of it. If your worried about the car being too much for you, there is always a mild 4 clyinder ready for sale somewhere.
__________________
2013 Bmw M5-Alpine White/Black-Oem gloss blk powder coated wheels-Expel clear bra-35% tint-Rpi Gtm Exhaust-Rpi Downpipes-Rpi Scoops-Halim Cazimi Performance Tune-KwV3 coilovers

Country run
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 07:11 AM   #15
Timberwolf
Captain
Timberwolf's Avatar
196
Rep
785
Posts

Drives: People crazy
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Location, Location

iTrader: (0)

This is a fantastic argument that would have me recommend a 550i XDrive. You'll have big torque without the wheel spin. Get the Dinan tune and you have 580tq and all go no spin whatsoever. Spinning tires isn't for everyone. Some are more comfortable with it than others. I've owned Corvettes among many other cars and have developed a comfort level with a lil spin.
__________________
991 Turbo
993 GT2 Outlaw
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 08:26 AM   #16
dapperdan
New Member
dapperdan's Avatar
Canada
4
Rep
20
Posts

Drives: '22 F90 LCI M5
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

But it's not all about straight line traction. Torque is also useful when accelerating off the apex, and then you want good weight balance and a good diff that can properly balance the torque. And in that regard, not all AWD cars are created equal.
__________________

BMW 2022 F90 LCI M5 Competition, Aventurine Red Metallic, Tartufo Extended Merino Leather, Ultimate Package
See my M5 Car Blog at http://m5carblog.blogspot.com
Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 10:54 AM   #17
RPiM5
Major General
RPiM5's Avatar
2853
Rep
7,883
Posts

Drives: Mexico Blue F10 M5(Mika)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapperdan View Post
I mean, if you were going up a 90 degree wall you'd get no traction at all
Challenge accepted!
__________________


Appreciate 0
      02-07-2013, 08:40 PM   #18
GTR-Dad
Driver
GTR-Dad's Avatar
Canada
8
Rep
210
Posts

Drives: 2012 M5 - DCT
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Beaumont, AB

iTrader: (0)

I think your calculations are pretty good. (What did you use for Cg?) It takes a good road surface to fully hook up in second, but the fact that you need to pay attention makes it all the more fun.
I find the torque adequate in most situations, but must agree with Mainly that you can get caught flat footed sometimes. This is a very responsive turbo car, but it's still not as immediate as a naturally aspirated one.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2013, 12:12 AM   #19
dapperdan
New Member
dapperdan's Avatar
Canada
4
Rep
20
Posts

Drives: '22 F90 LCI M5
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

By Cg do you mean the height of the centre of gravity? I estimated it at 0.8m by eye-balling my E60! It's the one number I am not at all confident in and can't find any reference for on the M5. Frustrating!
__________________

BMW 2022 F90 LCI M5 Competition, Aventurine Red Metallic, Tartufo Extended Merino Leather, Ultimate Package
See my M5 Car Blog at http://m5carblog.blogspot.com
Appreciate 0
      02-09-2013, 12:16 AM   #20
GTR-Dad
Driver
GTR-Dad's Avatar
Canada
8
Rep
210
Posts

Drives: 2012 M5 - DCT
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Beaumont, AB

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapperdan View Post
By Cg do you mean the height of the centre of gravity? I estimated it at 0.8m by eye-balling my E60! It's the one number I am not at all confident in and can't find any reference for on the M5. Frustrating!
Yes, centre of gravity. It defines the moment arm that drives weight transfer, and is one of the spec's I've never run across either. If it's lower than 0.8m, then you're traction limited to even higher speeds because you have less weight transfer than expected. If it's higher, then you should hook up sooner.

My experience says you're pretty close.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:26 AM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST