Rumors: M5/M6 returning to V10, G31 M5 Touring and X1 M

[Twitch Massacre]

Originally Posted by Netwon

I disagree I think the V8TT is a special engine. Especially when it pulls away from those loud V10's.

Oh there is no debate that the V8TT and DCT resulted in a much faster car. But since the first day I got the new car I noticed it doesn't FEEL as fast as the old car felt. The old V10 paired with the SMG just felt monstrous. The new car is more enjoyable to drive everyday than the old car, but the old car was more enjoyable at driving fast, despite not being as fast, if that makes any sense. Not to mention I really don't see anything special with the new engine, mechanically. Sure it's powerful but that's about it. The old engine was a work of art. A 3x Engine of the Year Award winner.

[RPiM5]

You guys, who cares about M5's and V10's and Twin Turbo V8's!!! All that matters is that an X1///M is coming out. My dream car!! Woohoo!

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

You guys, who cares about M5's and V10's and Twin Turbo V8's!!! All that matters is that an X1///M is coming out. My dream car!! Woohoo!

That would be very cool indeed!

[surewin]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

You guys, who cares about M5's and V10's and Twin Turbo V8's!!! All that matters is that an X1///M is coming out. My dream car!! Woohoo!

[surewin]

I'm thinking that even if the new M5 is a V10, it'll most likely be FI.

[Jackbmw]

Originally Posted by Zlaatan

Just make Touring versions for both the M3 and M5 please!!
The German big 3 are copying absolutely everything from eachother when it comes to models so why is it that both Audi and Mercedes have RS4/6 and C/E63 estates and BMW not even one!

Unfair me thinks..

+1

I pray for the M3 Touring every day. There are many of RS4 Avants and C63 wagons on the street of Switzerland. It would be nice to see the M3 Touring too. Not everyone who wants a plus 400bhp car wants a coupe, cabrio or limo. The only possibility is Alpina B3, but the philosophy of this car does not meet my expectations.

[clbmw]

It would be lovely to see/hear NA engines again but it's not going to happen, no chance with the exception of a handful of really exotic cars

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by surewin

Lol! This guy gets it!

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by surewin

I'm thinking that even if the new M5 is a V10, it'll most likely be FI.

Exactly. I'm not even sure why Scott bothers dropping rumors like this. All they do is set people up for disappointment. Same thing happened with all the weight rumors surrounding the F8x M3/M4.

The E60 M5 got what, 11/17 MPG? Naturally aspirated engine technology hasn't come that far in the intervening years. All the tech advancements have been in FI and hybrid solutions. There's no way around the physics of a high-revving N/A V10. It's going to get crap gas mileage.

So, the next M5 will either get an turbocharged V10 of smaller displacement than the S85, or it will continue with the TTV8 formula. Either way, people are going to be let down when there's no screaming 8000k redline.

[GOS7]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

All they do is set people up for disappointment.

The idea of a new V10 is so irrational that this thread is disappointing by itself. Along with the X1M, just.., why would they.

[Gjm127]

this post literately made my week.. BMW's back in business and growing some hair on their chests if all this is true!

[qbix]

If FI is the way they would go then there is no reason to make V10.

They then again are going to do a stupid thing. Add weight.

Unless they are preparing super pork big mamma german tank this time, V10 FI is going to be the only solution to move this thing.

[Blackraven]

I would want to believe the possibility of BMW returning to a V10 engine.

However, one forum member posted that the EU Government has imposed fleet-wide C02 emission targets for all automobile manufacturers operating in Europe (BMW obviously one of them).

For next year 2015, EU government in Brussels requires fleet average of 130 g/km C02........then by year 2020 this will be reduced to 95 g/km C02.

BMW along with other German automakers ALONG with the German government are trying to disagree and vote against the new regulations.......but if it will still push through, then it will be a big blow to plans for higher engine displacements.

And as most people know, automakers will be slapped with a 900 Euro fine for every g/km C02 that exceeds the allowable requirement set by EU law.

I just hope that any future M5/M6 WILL NOT be getting a six-cylinder engine because GOOD LORD, the exhaust would sound boring and lifeless.

Take a look at the new M3/M4. The only way to get acceptable exhaust sound is by installing a better exhaust tailpipe (like the BMW M Performance Exhaust System).............simply because the basic stock exhaust sounds pathetic............

Point is, I just hope that future M5/M6 cars won't succumb to a ridiculous amount of engine downsizing......I mean 'downgrading'.

[BMW269]

As downsizing is the trend, how to you do not to give the next generation M3 and 2.0l I4, as the basic 330i? You give it a 2.0 I6. Downsized and still different special engine. So could be for M5. But I doubt, as the coming X5/X6 get the same V8 as current M6 Competition.

[Hockey Guy]

Hate to sound like a broken record on this, but BMW may have had certain leanings on the next M5/6, but the rapid escalation of the HP wars (and the desire by M to always be the benchmark) may be pushing them to a place they did not feel the need to get to otherwise. If we want to believe that a V10 is possible again, there is no way it is not a TT. Zero chance in my mind. Too many other forces pulling all the European manufacturers toward forced induction. How much weight would a TT V10 add over a TTV8 given that M is trying to get the next M5 down to some 4,000 lbs?

In the next five years, where will the market be? If it is trending toward 650-700 HP today with and without hybrid systems, where does M need to get to in order to lead the segment by 2018 and for many years after that? It will be a very artful blend!! The marketing drawing power of a TT V10 making 625 HP or more? Absolutely. Hybrid assist adding another 100 HP to the front wheels for off the line (the only AWD-like feature I would value...not AWD itself)? Super cool. Can one still get 10-12% less weight with this combo and an interior that is as beautiful as the current one (which is lovely)? Will we all be willing to pay 10-15% more for that car, which on paper appears to be epic? I certainly would

[Mavus]

I guess the American muscle is freaking out Germans. GT350, Z06, cts v!? And new MB models are excellent. About time somebody realized how bland the lineup is!!

[jippii ensio]

Twin turbos in 10cyl engine add hundreds of whp.

Interesting to see how big engines would be possible still reaching the 105g/km of co2 limit for the fleet.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

Twin turbos in 10cyl engine add hundreds of whp.

Interesting to see how big engines would be possible still reaching the 105g/km of co2 limit for the fleet.

Displacement is definitely an interesting question. BMW targets 500cc per cylinder for optimum cylinder displacement. Going smaller means lower piston masses and shorter stroke, which allows for higher RPM operation with less exotic materials. However, there are some severe limitations of the high-RPM strategy that I think make this entire notion extremely dubious.

You have to couple your engine to a transmission. The reason that GM can get 26 MPG out of the 6.2L V8 in the C7 is because of gearing. The final in the C7's new 7-speed is 0.42:1. You can put a ridiculous final drive in the C7 and still get decent fuel economy on the highway. Contrast that to the M-DCT in the M3 (just as an example of a high revving engine) with a 7th gear ratio of flat 1.0:1.

So why can't you simply drop a 0.42:1 ratio in the M3? Because of transmission RPM limitations. When your redline is 8,300 RPM, you have to take care not to exceed the transmission's maximum RPM on the output shaft. This is precisely the reason that the M-DCT in the M3 didn't have an overdrive. The transmission couldn't handle the RPM on the output side, should someone run it up to max RPM in top gear. The C7 doesn't have this problem with its 6,600 RPM redline.

So, how does this all come back to the question of the displacement of this rumored V10? The S63 is a 4.3L V8 with individual cylinder displacement of 550cc. Just as an aside, BMW targets 500cc as an "optimal" displacement. The S85 cylinder displacement was 500cc. Likewise with the S65 at 4.0L; again we see 500cc cylinder displacement.

So what does BMW do with a V10 in the next gen M5/6? Will it be 5.0L again? How are they going to extract better fuel economy out of it? They can't get by with 11/17 MPG in the coming years. This is a car that isn't even here yet, and it will have to last 8-ish years in to the future during its lifecycle.

Larger displacement almost certainly means worse fuel economy than the existing V8, but why go smaller displacement with more cylinders? The typical answer to this question is to obtain a higher redline, but we know the trade-offs that come with this.

I'm really struggling to understand how a V10 fits in to BMW's future. Trust me, I'd love to see it. I'm clinging to the S65 in my M3 with everything I've got. I don't care about the extra performance of the new cars; my heart belongs to the S65. I need more convincing than a drive-by rumor drop.

[Pentium]

Originally Posted by surewin

That's really my face now

[MParallel]

Don't see why not? Lamborghini Hurakan has an N/A v10, why couldn't BMW?

[Thurman Murch]

S88B50X0 or S88B55X0

550c or 500cc

Chop two cylinders off wraith and let M team have it's way with two turbos

V10TT but see this engine more in the M8 loosely based off M1 homage / vision concepts

Or M8/M10 has the V12TT and M5/6 has the V10TT

What about the R8 competitor BMW seems to have rolled out the R8 e-tron/hybrid competitor with i8

Now mix in hybrid and carbon tech and exhaust cooling

Maybe an s55 in the back and electric in the front escudo style

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Staszek

Have you driven one? The lag is definitely not horrendous. Its almost unnoticeable.

Originally Posted by Matski

Link, or your own hyperbole?

Can't find the video link right now (and didn't save it because it didn't matter), but the gist was that I believe it was Top Gear who were doing one of their ridiculous tests, and this one was a drift test of the new M5/M6 - can't remember which or if both ..

Anyway, they hated it and said the lag was so awful it simply did not have sufficient responsiveness to even pull off drifting.

I'll keep trying to find it. All I found so far is this:

Originally Posted by Matski

Link, or your own hyperbole?

Summary: super fast, super boring.