Chris Harris Drives: BMW M5 30 Jahre vs Lexus GS F (Video)

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by trey100

Every car company is in the business of making money. There are no exceptions.

The issue is each brand has a buyer expectation that they must satisfy.

Toyota in my opinion is more likely to make total vehicle sales the number one priority as their brand is not about excitement/sportiness. They are about quiet, reliable, quality vehicles. They can do that. No one expects more. They can lose 100 comparisons in a row and wouldn't lose a sale.

BMWs brand is different. The buyer expects a reduction in reliability for an in increase in excitement and brand cache. If BMW dropped the M cars and started building replicas of camrys as their only vehicle, people would just buy the Toyota. So the accountants at BMW must walk that fine line where they attempt to attract more buyers which means making it slightly less focused but by no means can they just drop what they are known for and expect success.

So yes all companies are run by accountants but those accountants know what they need to do to increase sales and it's not always to build the most boring reliable car.

Right. I never said that this lead to a boring BMW. But let's be honest, they're less exciting than they were 10 years ago. But in the trade off, now they are faster and more capable. But I think we all miss high revving engines that were exciting to take to the limit. We won't see that ever again unfortunately but I'm certainly not upset about a 600HP M5.

[Eddien123]

Originally Posted by titium

I'd take an e60 m5 over either of these cars.

Id take an E60 M5 over every car in this segment. It was the best 4 door big sedan ever made hands down. A 200+ MPH V10 in a sedan family car? Are you kidding? It weighed less than the E39 which was unheard of for its time. All around fantastic car. I want once as my next car. But I don't know if I want to get an already 6 year old car as my "new" car.

[lm1z]

Originally Posted by shakfu3

Keep in mind that the street price for the GSF in the US is $20k off of MSRP

Come again? You are saying they are discounting these cars up to $20k off MSRP?

[goj]

Originally Posted by shakfu3

Keep in mind that the street price for the GSF in the US is $20k off of MSRP

Not around me. You really think you can get 20k off? No one is discounting these 25%

[goj]

Originally Posted by lm1z

Come again? You are saying they are discounting these cars up to $20k off MSRP?

Fake news, it's very sad

[InTheNightKitchen]

Originally Posted by goj

Fake news, it's very sad

LMAO

[amw896]

Originally Posted by Eddien123

You're kidding right? that's exactly what BMWs are today... All car companies besides A select few are run by accountants.

to an extent....at least BMW still offers loads of great cars to keep true to its heritage. Look at Toyota, they went from supras, celicas, mid engine mr2s to nothing. Only reason they are bringing the supra back is because it's almost entirely a z5 rebadged as a supra.

TRD actually used to mean something, nowadays, u only see the badge on Tacoma's lol

[RPiM5]

Chris Harris does have a point about NA engines being a rare breed now. I would have preferred it if BMW threw a 6.5L V12 making 600-700hp in the M5 instead of a turbo engine, even though the M Turbo Engines are quite good at what they do.

Other than that, I find the rest of Lexus car rubbish. The M5, in my mind, beats the lexus on every account except for exhaust note.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by goj

Fake news, it's very sad

I was offered $17k off but decided to go with F80 M3.

[elitex]

This one is used but with 10 miles. Probably just punched the warranty.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by titium

I'd take an e60 m5 over either of these cars.

I'd say the Bangle era cars were the last BMWs that "drove" like BMWs. That tactile feel for the road isn't there any longer. It's why I won't get rid of my E90.

[shakfu3]

Originally Posted by InTheNightKitchen

LMAO

It surprisingly true...

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...2581/overview/

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-f...rchase-41.html

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Well I mean... the F10 M5 has always had trouble putting it's power down... RWD in that condition is probably an no no lol.

Chris should know this... he does drive a F80.

The next-gen M5 will have on-demand xDrive.
And not a moment too soon.

BTW, this is a classic car comparison mismatch. Latest Lexus vs. last-of-its-generation BMW.
Top Gear wanted to sneak in a little Lexus semi-praise before the G30-based M5 is released.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by shakfu3

It surprisingly true...

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...2581/overview/

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-f...rchase-41.html

Damn. That car is absolutely worth it for $64K. My M5 was almost twice as much.

[DaveCM5]

Is he really complaining about the 600hp BMW not being able to put it's power down on a snowy, wet road?

[goj]

Originally Posted by elitex

This one is used but with 10 miles. Probably just punched the warranty.

It's probably because that color looks absolutely terrible on that car.

It's crazy Lexus is selling these for barely more than the GS350

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by DaveCM5

Is he really complaining about the 600hp BMW not being able to put it's power down on a snowy, wet road?

Yes. It was his intention to make a silly comparison.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by trey100

....

Toyota in my opinion is more likely to make total vehicle sales the number one priority as their brand is not about excitement/sportiness. They are about quiet, reliable, quality vehicles. They can do that. No one expects more. They can lose 100 comparisons in a row and wouldn't lose a sale.

BMWs brand is different. The buyer expects a reduction in reliability for an in increase in excitement and brand cache. If BMW dropped the M cars and started building replicas of camrys as their only vehicle, people would just buy the Toyota. So the accountants at BMW must walk that fine line where they attempt to attract more buyers which means making it slightly less focused but by no means can they just drop what they are known for and expect success.

Hmm, I am not sure I agree. As others have posted, BMW seems to be the car company that has lost its way, and Toyota the opposite (witness the new Camry, the new LC500, and even this GS-F vs. the 3/4 series and F10 5-series).

BMW engineers have actually been quoted as saying that their customers want LESS steering feel.

I'm hoping the new 5-series turns things around (because I drove a F10 535 and it was the most numb car I could remember driving in a long while - heck even the 550 was not special in terms of steering feel and chassis dynamics.)

Just my opinion of course!

[trey100]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Hmm, I am not sure I agree. As others have posted, BMW seems to be the car company that has lost its way, and Toyota the opposite (witness the new Camry, the new LC500, and even this GS-F vs. the 3/4 series and F10 5-series).

BMW engineers have actually been quoted as saying that their customers want LESS steering feel.

I'm hoping the new 5-series turns things around (because I drove a F10 535 and it was the most numb car I could remember driving in a long while - heck even the 550 was not special in terms of steering feel and chassis dynamics.)

Just my opinion of course!

Can't disagree that BMWs have gotten softer but no way they aren't still true to their heritage. My M3 is way more exciting than a Toyota , from styling to the way it drives.

Also things must move forward. Does anyone really expect BMW to not adopt electric steering in their cars? Or meet cafe standards by utilizing turbocharging? At the end of the day BMW offers cars that are fun with great styling and at least to me, overall more satisfying than it's competitors. Mercedes C styling doesn't do it for me (and a shifter stalk on the column??), Lexus - no manual, Caddy- styling too childish, etc. Instead with the M3 I get a comfortable car that can be very fast when needed, handles the road as much as any person can need on the road, styling is A+ (I get compliments pretty much daily), and comes with a manual.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by trey100

Can't disagree that BMWs have gotten softer but no way they aren't still true to their heritage. My M3 is way more exciting than a Toyota , from styling to the way it drives.

Also things must move forward. Does anyone really expect BMW to not adopt electric steering in their cars? Or meet cafe standards by utilizing turbocharging? At the end of the day BMW offers cars that are fun with great styling and at least to me, overall more satisfying than it's competitors. Mercedes C styling doesn't do it for me (and a shifter stalk on the column??), Lexus - no manual, Caddy- styling too childish, etc. Instead with the M3 I get a comfortable car that can be very fast when needed, handles the road as much as any person can need on the road, styling is A+ (I get compliments pretty much daily), and comes with a manual.

They are not true to their heritage. The 3-series is certainly not the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore.

And your M3 is a $70K+ car - and even at that, without the competition package, gets less than stellar reviews. The Comp package at least makes it competitive - but only good enough for a 3rd place finish losing badly to the Alfa Quadrifoglio in a recent comparison.

I'm not knocking the M3 (I certainly think it the only 4 door car I would want today and yes, it comes with a juicy stick shift - but it, along with the M4, is is not the bread and butter of BMW). But, when we look at the core of BMW's lineup, it has lost its way.

And...
Porsche makes electric steering work really nice

And...
Let's be honest, turbocharging is a good thing - torque rocks.

So people are not knocking BMW for still offering a stick (thank GOD), or offering turbocharging (thank GOD), but the steering feel, the chassis dynamics, the insistence on run-flats, ugh.... this has been the demise of the Ultimate Driving Machine.

[DingolfingLove]

Originally Posted by trey100

They are about quiet, reliable, quality vehicles. They can do that.

Not always - '17 Le Mans !

In fairness, Toyota have produced some great cars - such as the LFA - but they are still responsible for the Prius

I think the point CH was making by putting the Toyota against an M5 is that this is the leading performance product in this size of car. Not very surprising that a less powerful NA car was nicer to drive on a cold/wet/icy road.

[AWF87M2]

I never thought I would be giving the GSF a second thought as a replacement for my F10 535i as I've always been BMW guy but having driven one recently and extensively on a backroad has sort of changed my view of the car and I'm starting to have second thoughts. The car handles so well and the tvd system makes the car feel light on its feet. The induction noise is intoxicating especially when the second cam kicks in, still I just can't get over the rubbish infotainment system and how all the buttons are laid out, makes multi tasking much harder compared to the programable keys on the F10. Talk about the deals they are giving out for leftover 2016 GSF's, dealers around me are offering them for as high as 20k off msrp which makes the car in the mid 60k range. I must say for this price you do get a lot of car for your money. I still gotta drive the G30 M550i when it comes out and a couple of zcp M5's and M6 gc to make up my mind but I am truly impressed with how it performed.