M5 Power Delivery - help from BMW requested

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

After 7-8 pages in 2 threads finally you get what people are trying to tell you???!!!
Did you read any of posts including mine (specially #10) ???

Yes Sir all M5/M6 treats like yours. Nothing is wrong with your car. Something is wrong with you (JK)

Perhaps you're right. The car certainly performs exceptionally well in all other respects. But like I said at the very beginning, the BMW engineers who programmed the M135i's 8 speed AT managed to create a gearbox that avoids mixing extremely undynamic fuel saving measures with normal dynamic driving modes. They lumped together all the economy settings in Eco-Pro and gave us 3 dynamic settings, Comfort, Sport and Sport + that perform exactly like they say.
The M engineers on the other hand screwed up Comfort mode by making it dynamic up to top gear, at which point (it appears) they suddenly remembered they needed a token economy setting.
I agree there are work-arounds which have been well documented, but they are still work-arounds. Avoiding the use of D1 because its flawed doesn't make it any less flawed. As I said at the very beginning, compared to the M135i's comfort mode, D1 sucks. "Yes it sucks, so stop using it idiot" misses my point, which is, what the hell were M's engineers thinking about when they designed, coded and tested D1? Why not just implement a proper eco mode like the M135i

And before you post a load of "so buy an M135i" messages, I was simply pointing out that (what I view as) the flaw in the D1 programming of mixing in 1 economy stage with in an otherwise dynamic driving mode could be reversed with a simple few lines of code to make it perfect and extremely usable. I don't think "So don't use it idiot!" is a very good answer.

By the way, this is what Chris Harris said about the ZF8 in his M135i vs. AMG test;

"AMG spent a lot of money on their DCT but it can't quite match the smoothness and sheer speed of the ZF-8 unit in the BMW"

The point is, the ZF 8 shifts in 200 milliseconds, half the time it takes to blink (the torque convertor is only used for launch, not shifting). What does it matter if something is even faster if you can't perceive the difference?. The ZF-8 is a brilliant gear box, especially as implemented by BMW.
DCT is superior, but not in D1, which is a pity, because it easily could be

And with that I believe we're exactly back where we started and this thread has reached the end of its useful life (and then some, I hear you say).

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Perhaps you're right. The car certainly performs exceptionally well in all other respects. But like I said at the very beginning, the BMW engineers who programmed the M135i's 8 speed AT managed to create a gearbox that avoids mixing extremely undynamic fuel saving measures with normal dynamic driving modes. They lumped together all the economy settings in Eco-Pro and gave us 3 dynamic settings, Comfort, Sport and Sport + that perform exactly like they say.
The M engineers on the other hand screwed up Comfort mode by making it dynamic up to top gear, at which point (it appears) they suddenly remembered they needed a token economy setting.
I agree there are work-arounds which have been well documented, but they are still work-arounds. Avoiding the use of D1 because its flawed doesn't make it any less flawed. As I said at the very beginning, compared to the M135i's comfort mode, D1 sucks. "Yes it sucks, so stop using it idiot" misses my point, which is, what the hell were M's engineers thinking about when they designed, coded and tested D1? Why not just implement a proper eco mode like the M135i

Well first of all I don’t think anybody told you “stop using it idiot”. We just tried to explain what D1 is.
Then like I said there are 162 different settings on M5. The default setting (Efficient, comfort, comfort, D1) on M cars works like Eco-Pro mode on non M BMW. You may ask those M engineers who "screwed up" to add "individual Eco-Pro mode" to M cars but then people will be confused to see an M car with Eco-Pro mode
As far as ZF vs DCT, I think you misunderstood the concept by comparing M135 with M5. It’s not just about transmission, it’s also about the weight and power and torque. On the other hand, M135 has different ZF8 part number than the ZF8 is in used in big heavy 550i/650i, because of input power and torque rating. M135, and majority of gasoline 2 series, 3series , 4 series , 5 series, 6 series and 7 series (except 550, 650, 750) are coming with ZF8HP45 which is rated to 450 NM (330 lb-ft) while the last three are coming with ZF8HP70 which is rated to 700 NM (516 lb-ft). To make it clear for you, go and test drive 640i and then compare it to your M135. You will see the difference (in term of acceleration) even though both have the same ZF part number tranny. why? because 640i is much heavier than M135... I already told you even 650i (ZF8) is not like M135… it’s too lazy

And before you post a load of "so buy an M135i" messages, I was simply pointing out that (what I view as) the flaw in the D1 programming of mixing in 1 economy stage with in an otherwise dynamic driving mode could be reversed with a simple few lines of code to make it perfect and extremely usable.


I don't think "So don't use it idiot!" is a very good answer.

By the way, this is what Chris Harris said about the ZF8 in his M135i vs. AMG test;

"AMG spent a lot of money on their DCT but it can't quite match the smoothness and sheer speed of the ZF-8 unit in the BMW"

I like the way you insist on "few line of code"
Those few line of codes are already there. This codes say: you need more acceleration even in efficient/D1 ? no problem... just push the f*** gas pedal harder and pass the kickdown
According to Chris Harris, I don’t know which DCT he is referring to. If he is talking about SLS or new AMG GTS, those are not the same M DCT. If he is talking about other AMGs, those are MCT and again not the same M DCT, but overall I agree with him and nobody denied it. ZF is very smooth tranny not comparable to DCT in this department, but again not as fast and as sharp as DCT. ZF8 is designed for smoothness, fuel efficiency and acceleration (by adding one more gear to reduce the gap between gear ratios of sequential gears).
I highly recommend you to go and test driver 550i. You will realize the difference between ZF8 and DCT on two big heavy sedans. I know because as I said I owned 650i for 2 years. Very smooth and efficient tranny, but I will never go back to ZF or any other tranny since I have experienced M DCT.

The point is, the ZF 8 shifts in 200 milliseconds, half the time it takes to blink (the torque convertor is only used for launch, not shifting). What does it matter if something is even faster if you can't perceive the difference?. The ZF-8 is a brilliant gear box, especially as implemented by BMW.
DCT is superior, but not in D1, which is a pity, because it easily could be

And with that I believe we're exactly back where we started and this thread has reached the end of its useful life (and then some, I hear you say).

Agree with 200 millisecond (compare to 80 millisecond or 2.5 times faster DCT), but even in ZF8 if you want to downshift from 8th gear to 2nd gear, you need to pass kickdown right?
Trust me I have searched a lot about ZF.
Here you can see some links about ZF specs/functionalities if you are interested:
http://www.zf.com/media/media/img_1/...Produkt_EN.pdf
http://www.motor.com/newsletters/201...8HP_Tranny.pdf

Meanwhile, what we are referring to about Clutch is not what you are talking about. The clutch located between gears is different from the clutch located between transmission shaft and flywheel. Those gear clutches are everywhere. Did you know that even the LSD has those clutches?
I think you need to read more about AT and DCT and LSD. Here are some videos you may be interested to watch. The first one is ZF AT. The second one is ZF DCT. It’s a little different from M DCT on your M5 (Getrag 7DCI700) but the concept is the same. The last video is about LSD… enjoy

ZF8 Auto Transmission

ZF Dual Clutch Transmission

Limitted Slip Differential

You can also search to understand how Torque Convertor or Dual Clutch Transmission work.

This is a link to ZF Clutch to know why DCT shifts very fast...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQAnSxZkdVI

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

The default setting (Efficient, comfort, comfort, D1) on M cars works like Eco-Pro mode on non M BMW. You may ask those M engineers who "screwed up" to add "individual Eco-Pro mode" to M cars but then people will be confused to see an M car with Eco-Pro mode

The default setting on M cars is nothing like Eco-Pro Mode, except when it gets into top gear at 1200 rpm, then it is. Eco Pro is in no way dynamic
M Default is very dynamic, until it gets into high gears at low revs at which point it ceases to be.
In D1 an M car will effortlessly pass another car, then suddenly it won't. That's confusing enough to make me think my car was broken.

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

As far as ZF vs DCT, I think you misunderstood the concept by comparing M135 with M5.

I wasn't intending to compare the ZF8 in the M135i to the M5's DCT. I was comparing the M135i's comfort mode with the M5's default comfort mode and pointing out that the M135i doesn't get 'stuck' in higher gears like the M5, which is a programming rather than gearbox issue.

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I like the way you insist on "few line of code"
Those few line of codes are already there. This codes say: you need more acceleration even in efficient/D1 ? no problem... just push the f*** gas pedal harder and pass the kickdown

At which point it kicks down and takes off like a rocket. I just want to gain a few mph, smoothly and quickly. The point is, the car does exactly that, until it gets to 7th gear, then it doesn't.

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

According to Chris Harris, I don’t know which DCT he is referring to.

AMG 45. Essentially what he is saying is that the ZF8 is smoother and faster than the DCT fitted to the AMG 45

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I highly recommend you to go and test driver 550i. You will realize the difference between ZF8 and DCT on two big heavy sedans. I know because as I said I owned 650i for 2 years. Very smooth and efficient tranny, but I will never go back to ZF or any other tranny since I have experienced M DCT.

Again, I am not saying that the ZF8 is better. I'm saying that the programming of the M135i's Comfort mode is superior to the DCT's D1 coding. I'm also saying it needn't be and that D1 could be a lot better if they'd simply stop it holding onto gears against the will of the driver. When a driver gives gas in 7th gear at 1200rpm he or she wants to accelerate but there's no torque and the car is in an overdrive gear ratio so its illogical to hang onto 7th (essentially the car is saying, piss off, I'm saving fuel). I know I can click a paddle, but then I must remember to click the stick back into D...the point is why program D1 illogically in the first place?

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Agree with 200 millisecond (compare to 80 millisecond or 2.5 times faster DCT), but even in ZF8 if you want to downshift from 8th gear to 2nd gear, you need to pass kickdown right?

Probably, I never really tried such an extreme shift.....I'd need to be going quite slowly in 8th for it to select such a low ratio. But from 8th to say 5th would happen all the time, as soon as I would ease down on the gas. If it was a small throttle movement it would kick down a gear, but the further the pedal moved, i.e the more acceleration I wanted, the lower the ratio it would select....fast, smooth, logical. I'd be cruising up a hill in 8th in Comfort, decide I wanted to go a little faster, give some gas and I'd be instantly in 6th and accelerating. I do the same in the M5 and it just tells me to "piss off".

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Trust me I have searched a lot about ZF.

I believe you and I'm most grateful for your assistance

I was out early this morning in my M5. It was quite warm and sunny and the roads were dry and empty. The car is spectacularly good. I specifically put it in M2, which is S2 and it was pure joy to drive.

When I came to the M5 I had just driven 18K miles in an M135i which has unquestionably the best automatic transmission on the planet. It was winter, the roads were cold and wet and D1 was the safest choice in such a powerful car. I was expecting the M5's DCT to be better. In Sequential it is, by a large margin. But in D1 it isn't....the only point I was making is that it could be....no, should be

[BarryB]

I think the dead horse is beaten.....

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by BarryB

I think the dead horse is beaten.....

True, but I have learned a lot. The discussion has been incredibly useful and I have tried many of the suggestions, to my benefit.

The M5 has enormous performance potential and the car I initially got to know on cold, wet roads is nothing like the car set up for warm, dry, twisting tarmac. I can see why, for many people, D1 is a complete non-issue and rarely used.

With such a wide performance envelope and huge variety of settings its quite complex to learn all the M5's nuances. The M135i is a lot simpler and frankly, the auto mode so good, you don't have to use much else. I dialled in the same settings in the M5 expecting it to be as good, but it wasn't, hence these discussions. But quite clearly there are other settings, especially those in Sequential that more than compensate.

I'm really extremely happy with my M5, overall its a brilliant piece of automotive engineering and I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback and help in getting to know it better

[BarryB]

Good

[MyF15+F85]

Finally...
Again, there is nothing " wrong " with the car, do not try to insinuate that there is anything dis-functional.
If I may maybe this analogy will work for you.
To get a decent picture, get an automatic camera ( Entry level DLSR )
point, shoot , admire .... ( 135i )

Now, get the ( D4 Nikon ) for example, set the time , aperture , speed lights,
lenses, temperature ( K ) and a variety of other adjustments .
It will longer to set up, it will take longer to learn all the details....
but the outcome should be stunning..... ( your M5 )

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by MyFten

Finally...
Again, there is nothing " wrong " with the car, do not try to insinuate that there is anything dis-functional.
If I may maybe this analogy will work for you.
To get a decent picture, get an automatic camera ( Entry level DLSR )
point, shoot , admire .... ( 135i )

Now, get the ( D4 Nikon ) for example, set the time , aperture , speed lights,
lenses, temperature ( K ) and a variety of other adjustments .
It will longer to set up, it will take longer to learn all the details....
but the outcome should be stunning..... ( your M5 )

Your point is pretty much spot on. Actually is spot on. That's the perfect analogy!

For the last 3 years you've been shooting great pictures with your extremely competent entry level DLSR.....it has some possibility to choose programs but experience has shown you that its 'Smart Shoot' automatic mode gets it right 99.5% of the time and usually takes better photos than when you mess around with the programs.

But you're going on Safari in Kenya and decide to treat yourself to a top of the line Nixon C7. You read the manual and with your previous experience of SLRs you understand pretty much 100% how it all operates.

Your first day is sunset parked up near a waterhole. Huge African sun in the background and animals queuing up to drink. You get your camera set up for backlit scenes, shoot a few test frames then happily capture all the action. That evening you review your pictures and are delighted with the results.

The next day is a Landrover tour. You're not sure what you're going to find, when or where or what the lighting is going to be but you need to be ready to shoot instantly, so you pick the cameras fully automatic 'Intelligent Auto' mode. You snap away happily all day, and that evening you review your pictures. Now you find that the ones in bright sunshine are fine, but with many of the pictures taken in shade the subject is out of focus because the camera picks fast shutter speed over aperture and gives you little depth of field. Well that's disappointing, you think to yourself, that's not how my little DLSR would have done it.

The next day you get on the Nixon C7 forum and ask the question. "We never use 'Intelligent Auto' " comes the reply, "Use manual aperture auto mode and you'll be fine"

*The Nixon C7 and its performance are figments of my imagination

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I don't know if BMW ever monitors these forums but if they do, let's hope they notice this thread and do something about it.

In December I took delivery of a brand new M5 CP. I traded in an M135i which had been amazing fun to own, in order to finally have my dream car. I've owned various M cars, including M3s and a Z4M and I was really keen to own BMW's ultimate performance car.

I've now driven 4000 miles and for the most part I'm delighted with the car's overall performance. But there's one element that I really dislike and that would be incredibly easy to fix, namely a small part of the DCT's coding.
Here's what I'm talking about.
Take your M5 in default mode....everything in comfort and DCT in D1. Set off from standstill gently through the gears.....as you accelerate, marginally ease your foot down on the gas a few more mm. Feel that powerful surge? That's 560+ horsepower and 500 lb ft. of torque just waiting to be unleashed!
Now get the car to its target speed.....say 40 or 50 mph and hold that for a while. Car shifts to 6th or 7th and revs drop to around 1200.... Now ease your foot down again that same few mm. Notice the difference? Suddenly your M5 makes 75 horsepower and virtually no torque and small family sedans are passing you by. Ease your foot down a little more and..... sedan's still gaining.

Now let's figuratively repeat the same exercise in an M135i. Comfort, 50 mph, 1200 rpm, a whiff of gas and the ZF 8 speed instantly clicks down a gear or 2 and you're right in the thick part of the torque curve and off up the road with 320hp and a load of torques under your foot. No comparison. In an M135i I can cruise economically but the split second I want more power, its RIGHT THERE.
Do the same in the M5 and you can barely wake it up. Its not turbo lag because you can do the same in Sequential, kick it down a cog or 2 and its exactly like the M135i, only faster. A lot faster.

So come on BMW....do us all a favour, take a look at the M5's DCT coding and give us a car that performs like it should, ALL THE TIME!

Drive it in Sport+ Engine, problem solved, thats my way.
Out of Town Sport+ Steering : Sport Suspension : Sport+ Engine.

[neiluk]

Steve

I tried to replicate your issue this morning and, in D1, pottering along at about 1200rpm and having let the gearbox fall into 7th, I was able to invoke downshifts without hitting the kickdown position. It did require significant throttle input but with what felt like about an inch of pedal movement it selected 6th and then, feeding in more throttle, 5th. If I'd gone further I'd have kicked it down.

This D1 behaviour is exactly what I would expect. Without re-reading every post are you saying you can't get it to downshift at all without kicking down? Have you had the adaptations reset?

I have the ZF8P in an F20 125d which, whilst not an M135i, it would be somewhat comparable in terms of torque at lower revs, and if anything I feel the box is far to quick to downshift in the default comfort mode - in fact eco pro is much more relaxed for driving around town because it hangs onto the gears. I personally like the way the DCT behaves in this respect.

Neil

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by neiluk

Steve

I tried to replicate your issue this morning and, in D1, pottering along at about 1200rpm and having let the gearbox fall into 7th, I was able to invoke downshifts without hitting the kickdown position. It did require significant throttle input but with what felt like about an inch of pedal movement it selected 6th and then, feeding in more throttle, 5th. If I'd gone further I'd have kicked it down.

This D1 behaviour is exactly what I would expect. Without re-reading every post are you saying you can't get it to downshift at all without kicking down? Have you had the adaptations reset?

I have the ZF8P in an F20 125d which, whilst not an M135i, it would be somewhat comparable in terms of torque at lower revs, and if anything I feel the box is far to quick to downshift in the default comfort mode - in fact eco pro is much more relaxed for driving around town because it hangs onto the gears. I personally like the way the DCT behaves in this respect.

Neil

Comfort mode is just that, it will not rocket away in top gear., or drop two/three gears unless "kick-down" is invoked.

[neiluk]

Originally Posted by JOHNBMWM5

Comfort mode is just that, it will not rocket away in top gear., or drop two/three gears unless "kick-down" is invoked.

As I said, mine dropped a cog or two but only when provoked. No kick down - no abrupt mashing of pedal - but it did drop into 6th and then 5th as I fed the throttle in.

I think from what Steve has said the F20 downshifts on light throttle application - as mine does - and I find this undesirable. I'll go into manual mode with the ZF just to avoid unnecessary downshifts when driving sedately. My point is that maybe in the M5 the full length of the throttle needs to be used to provoke the desired acceleration.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by neiluk

As I said, mine dropped a cog or two but only when provoked. No kick down - no abrupt mashing of pedal - but it did drop into 6th and then 5th as I fed the throttle in.

I think from what Steve has said the F20 downshifts on light throttle application - as mine does - and I find this undesirable. I'll go into manual mode with the ZF just to avoid unnecessary downshifts when driving sedately. My point is that maybe in the M5 the full length of the throttle needs to be used to provoke the desired acceleration.

Yea I see. I always as I said drive out of town on full "M" so instant responses, around town Sport Steering; Sport suspension and ECO engine.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by neiluk

Steve

I tried to replicate your issue this morning and, in D1, pottering along at about 1200rpm and having let the gearbox fall into 7th, I was able to invoke downshifts without hitting the kickdown position. It did require significant throttle input but with what felt like about an inch of pedal movement it selected 6th and then, feeding in more throttle, 5th. If I'd gone further I'd have kicked it down.

This D1 behaviour is exactly what I would expect. Without re-reading every post are you saying you can't get it to downshift at all without kicking down? Have you had the adaptations reset?

I have the ZF8P in an F20 125d which, whilst not an M135i, it would be somewhat comparable in terms of torque at lower revs, and if anything I feel the box is far to quick to downshift in the default comfort mode - in fact eco pro is much more relaxed for driving around town because it hangs onto the gears. I personally like the way the DCT behaves in this respect.

Neil

Hi Neil,

Thank you so much for your feedback. Great info.

I just went out and tested my car and it pretty much drives as you describe. Also your description of the 125d sounds very familiar. As I stated in my previous posts, a few mm on the gas pedal in Comfort and the ZF8P would downshift 2 gears and take off up the road on a wave of torque. The M5 needs what feels like a lot more gas before it shifts.

Something you said got me thinking; "if anything I feel the box is far to quick to downshift in the default comfort mode - in fact eco pro is much more relaxed for driving around town because it hangs onto the gears. I personally like the way the DCT behaves in this respect."

I hated Eco-Pro. I only used it a maximum of three times and each time couldn't believe how dead it felt. By comparison, Comfort mode felt perfect. Now I switch cars to DCT and in D1 it feels a little Eco-Pro-like in 7th.

What I found out today is that it doesn't actually shift any earlier in the lower gears, its just that the car responds with more alacrity by virtue of the torque multiplication in the lower ratios.

You seem to be used to and therefore prefer longer pedal movements....I am for sure used to the M135i's lightening reflexes....and prefer that instant response.

Also I do get the feeling that some days are worse than others. Today I drove it and quite honestly it felt a little lacking but not worth complaining about.

I do drive the car very differently when I have passengers, especially the passenger I'm married to. Is it possible that the adaptive gearbox learns this more relaxed driving style and hangs onto it for a while?

[DrewM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

True, but I have learned a lot.

I beg to differ. It appears that you have not learned a thing and continue to stick to your position that the car is flawed since it doesn't do what YOU want it to do when YOU want it to do it in a given situation, regardless of the fact that that ability would detract from what the majority (actually everyone here but you) wants the car to do in the same situation.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

I beg to differ. It appears that you have not learned a thing and continue to stick to your position that the car is flawed since it doesn't do what YOU want it to do when YOU want it to do it in a given situation, regardless of the fact that that ability would detract from what the majority (actually everyone here but you) wants the car to do in the same situation.

I think you'll find that's because the vast majority didn't come straight from an M135i to an M5, only to find that the M5 is vastly inferior in certain automatic modes. And not inferior because its intrinsically worse....far from it. The DCT is way better in manual and its only down to programming that its wiorse in D1

Clearly the vast majority of M5 owners believe the M5 DCT is great.....I'm merely suggesting that based on my recent experience, it could be better. I took my car out last week and drove it all day in manual and it was great.....more fun than an M135i in Auto or manual.

I am suggesting 1 minor change to D1 behaviour in 7th gear that i believe every owner would appreciate, as it would make the car more flexible without making any more intimidating for wives and less ambitious drivers.

[DrewM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm merely suggesting that based on my recent experience, it could be better.

Yes. But based on your definition of "better".

Originally Posted by SteveC

. . . I believe every owner would appreciate . . ..

Why do you continue to believe that every owner would appreciate this when virtually everyone in this thread has stated otherwise?

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

Yes. But based on your definition of "better".

True...based entirely on my preference to not drive a 575HP car that occasionally behaves like a N/A diesel for no good reason other than ill judged transmission coding.

Originally Posted by DrewM5

Why do you continue to believe that every owner would appreciate this when virtually everyone in this thread has stated otherwise?

Several reasons:
Because almost everyone has stated that they avoid using D1 and recommended that I should too. So no-one likes D1 and I can understand why.

Since launching the F10 M5 BMW has introduced a new transmission, whose 'gentle' auto mode is superior to the M5's. Its unlikely that too many people have tried an M135i so have no point of reference to see how a well executed Comfort mode could perform. There's nothing other than a bit of coding preventing the M5 from performing as well or better.

No one has stated whether they would or wouldn't like an improvement, merely that my M5 isn't broken and is working as designed. I now drive my M5 like everyone else.....I use paddles or other modes to avoid D1's propensity to hang on to 7th in the car's default settings.

Others have argued that it isn't a defect. To my mind having to switch out of and back into auto mode or use kick down to get the car to downshift from 7th in its default settings may not be a defect in the true sense of the word, as that's how the car is designed. I would therefore call it a design defect, shortcoming or misjudgement......whichever noun you prefer.

But if you think an M5 ought to have a numb gas pedal at certain speeds in its default setting, who am I to tell you otherwise?

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

True...based entirely on my preference to not drive a 575HP car that occasionally behaves like a N/A diesel for no good reason other than ill judged transmission coding.



Several reasons:
Because almost everyone has stated that they avoid using D1 and recommended that I should too. So no-one likes D1 and I can understand why.

Since launching the F10 M5 BMW has introduced a new transmission, whose 'gentle' auto mode is superior to the M5's. Its unlikely that too many people have tried an M135i so have no point of reference to see how a well executed Comfort mode could perform. There's nothing other than a bit of coding preventing the M5 from performing as well or better.

No one has stated whether they would or wouldn't like an improvement, merely that my M5 isn't broken and is working as designed. I now drive my M5 like everyone else.....I use paddles or other modes to avoid D1's propensity to hang on to 7th in the car's default settings.

Others have argued that it isn't a defect. To my mind having to switch out of and back into auto mode or use kick down to get the car to downshift from 7th in its default settings may not be a defect in the true sense of the word, as that's how the car is designed. I would therefore call it a design defect, shortcoming or misjudgement......whichever noun you prefer.

I actually love D1 and use it every day but it is out of necessity for me. Running a straightpipe exhaust requires me to keep the RPM's down for sound level decibel reasons. I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but driving around the Neo-3rd Reich they call the Commonwealth of Virginia, you can seriously get thrown in jail for your car sounding like a BMW F1 Williams car. Therefore D1 gets used every day for me and I have come to appreciate it's smoothness and ability to keep the revs as low as possible. If my M5 were stock, I'd never use D1 though, I will admit that. Before I went full straightpipes, I did use D2 a lot and it was perfect. D2 let's the DCT shift into 7th gear when you are on the highway just fine. I let my sister drive my M5 the other week and I kept the car in D1 for her, she said it was very easy to drive after being scared of driving my car.

[SteveC]

I use D1 for similar reasons, not for noise, but because sometimes our roads are very slippery and low revs minimizes torque and wheel spin. Its why I don't appreciate kickdown which suddenly gives you gobs of torque and obviously lots of noise.

All I want is consistent up and down shifting and throttle response.....

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Since launching the F10 M5 BMW has introduced a new transmission, whose 'gentle' auto mode is superior to the M5's. Its unlikely that too many people have tried an M135i so have no point of reference to see how a well executed Comfort mode could perform. There's nothing other than a bit of coding preventing the M5 from performing as well or better.

The ZF8 has been around since 2008 that's 4 years before the F10 M5 nothing "new" about that transmission, its in everything these days.

I've owned two cars that had it and driven over 70k miles with the ZF8 it's common as muck any sales rep would have a point of reference with ZF8 it's not some in house Ferrari gearbox.

The ZF8 is good at being a slushomatic and "can" be sporty sometimes but it has its own ghosts hidden away in the machine as I found out many times.

It's far from perfect and wouldn't suit an M car, the DCT transmission has its limitations but it's the best solution for the application, PDK also has the same issue as the engineers try to max economy in a certain setting it's there by design.

If you want a V8 with a slushbox they offer the 550i.

[M6-Coupe]

Steve,
Your "MANUAL DCT" in D mode needs your right foot instead of right hand (your left hand) to shift the gear.
Underneath your right foot you have room and you need to use that room to instruct this manual gearbox downshift for you even in D1.
Driving at 50 mph, D1, Efficient, 1200 RPM, if you divide that room by 4 then,
Push the gas pedal to 1/4 and DCT downshifts to 6th gear.
Or push the gas pedal harder to 1/2 and DCT downshifts to 5th gear.
Or push the gas pedal much harder to 3/4 and DCT downshifts to 4th gear.
Or Push the gas pedal to floor (pass the kickdown) and DCT downshifts to 3th gear.
I took the video for you to show how