800whp+ on flash with NO JB4 and quick Stage 1 turbo review.

[MissionPerformance]

While on our trip to Bahrain, we had a great chance to test out 2 identical F10 M5s aside from turbo setup. One of the cars had a factory turbo with 40,000km and the second vehicle had a fresh Pure stage 1 setup. Both of the cars were tuned by us with no help of JB4 on the same dyno, same gas, same condition and results were very interesting.


First up was F10 with stock turbos. The car put down an amazing 767whp/787trq. Though we were able to achieve 775whp/800ftlb of torque, the turbos were spinning much faster then they ever should and we were way past the efficiency cutoff, so we backed down.




Second vehicle had an identical setup aside from turbos. This car was packing a stage 1 setup by pure. After few runs, we figured out that turbo completely runs out of efficiency at anything over 800trq/800whp and the "sweet spot" is 785whp/790trq. Yes, it is possible to get 830whp on this setup, but the turbo will be pushed way past efficiency mark and you start to get to dangerous territory




The big issue we see with pure stage 1 is the fact that it only offered an upgraded compressor side and no work done on the turbine/exhaust side. On the factory turbos, turbine and compressor sides are "equally" limiting and doing only one side will show you almost no real gains as you can see from these results. Stage 2 on other hand, should be a big improvement. Once we get our hands on a vehicle with stage 2 turbos, we should be seeing 870whp+ numbers.

No matter what turbo you have on your car, these cars are real monsters even in a stock form. 700+whp out of daily driven vehicle used to be a day dream...but thanks to BMW's new S63tu line up, its a reality for sure.

[RoosterRoost]

Nothing but a tune on the first car?

[MissionPerformance]

Originally Posted by RoosterRoost

Nothing but a tune on the first car?

Both cars have:
Dodson Clutchs
Downpipes
Akra Exhaust
Gruppe M Intakes
100% Meth by Aquamist

[brad850csi]

93 octane only run on the Pure car...please! No added Ethanol or Meth

[MissionPerformance]

Originally Posted by brad850csi

93 octane only run on the Pure car...please! No added Ethanol or Meth

The vehicle belongs to the customers and they will not want to use it as an R&D for that setup. But it will be capable of 700 to 750 for sure on just 93 and gapped plugs to .020

[brad850csi]

Thanks, saw your reply on the other thread

[gary_F10M5]

Sometimes I wonder if straight flash with upgraded 3.5bar mapsensors or backend flash with jb4 to achieve 22psi and above would yield more power. Any ideas?

[RPiM5]

This is new information. I haven't really heard that the turbos are operating beyond their efficiency above a certain horsepower rating, but it does make sense. What does this mean for those people who are running with Pure Stage 1 Turbos or even stock turbos and show that they are making 857whp or higher? Are they running their turbos in "dangerous territory" as was said, will the turbos then fail? Is this turbo efficiency absolute? Does it matter if the turbos also have a JB4 and Meth Injection to work with? I would think Water/Meth Injection would be independent of turbo power efficiency, seeing how all it does is lower the intake temperature thus producing more power. But if the JB4 in combination with a flash tune is pushing the turbos too hard, I can't imagine that would be a good thing for longevity of the turbos. I wonder if anybody has had turbo failure yet?

[onfireX5]

Are you using wheel speed sensors or just IAT to determine when they leave the island on the compressor map ?

[onfireX5]

Also, what was the maximum lb per hour fuel flow at peak hp ?

Thanks for sharing your results !

[TheHouseWon]

What was max psi to achieve those numbers?

[TrevorM3]

usually dont like aftermarket wheels on an m5, but those look good.

[TrevorM3]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

This is new information. I haven't really heard that the turbos are operating beyond their efficiency above a certain horsepower rating, but it does make sense. What does this mean for those people who are running with Pure Stage 1 Turbos or even stock turbos and show that they are making 857whp or higher? Are they running their turbos in "dangerous territory" as was said, will the turbos then fail? Is this turbo efficiency absolute? Does it matter if the turbos also have a JB4 and Meth Injection to work with? I would think Water/Meth Injection would be independent of turbo power efficiency, seeing how all it does is lower the intake temperature thus producing more power. But if the JB4 in combination with a flash tune is pushing the turbos too hard, I can't imagine that would be a good thing for longevity of the turbos. I wonder if anybody has had turbo failure yet?

There has to be. But nobody is going to come out online and tell everyne they got their car tuned, motor blew, now they want warranty work done...

[ur20v]

Engines are air pump fundamently, to produce a given power you need a give amount of air and fuel fro there you can calculate turbine speed and compare to the compressor map, as you move out of the effiecney island you get certain results like lag, changes in boost threshold, turbine speed, heat etc... the main killer of turbos other than oil supply is surge.

Going larger on a hot side nearly always provides dividends in effiecency with less heat, reduction in knock tendancy and more power for a given boost then better fuel eccon as aside effect.

[13M5F10]

Originally Posted by TrevorM3

usually dont like aftermarket wheels on an m5, but those look good.

Those look like ADV1

BMW did an amazing job on the 343Ms. I had two aftermarket sets and still lived my oem wheels more. Haha

[MissionPerformance]

Our post might have came out a tad bit against pure, so we want to clarify something. We have NOTHING against Pure turbos. They provide good product that has worked well for us in the past. What this post was made to serve purpose for was to tell you guys not to expect miracles from stage 1 upgrade. In real world application, the stage 1 turbos are a good product as a replacement turbos for anyone running under ~750whp. These turbos will survive much more abuse at that power rating then the factory ones will and are essential to building a perfect daily driven monster. However, they are not capable of SAFELY producing 800whp+. On the dyno, we have seen the highest number of 855whp on that setup, BUT a road test revealed few issues and power had to be lowered. For 800whp+, you need stage 2 turbos for sure and soon we will be testing that setup in California.

[mike@x-ph.com]

good numbers guys!!

But I don't understand why you felt the need to mention in the title and subject that car has no JB4. A list of mods would be enough for us to know what is on the car

[allmotor_2000]

Keep up the good work...

In my opinion dyno #'s don't mean much other than a relative tuning tool. I can easily show plots of 1000whp... and everybody would believe me.

It's best to urge the customers or a shop vehicle to get VERIFIED 60-130 or 1/4 mile times. You don't need to go breaking axles to get a good trap speed. Take DMETuning for example, he just trapped 140mph in the 1/4. That's a solid 800whp on a Stage 1 setup and only justifies all the dyno/tuning work he has published. I trapped 143mph on a similar setup and expect 147-148 on the Stage 2.

If an M5 is making 820-850whp, it needs to run sub-6s 60-130 (< 3% slope) and trap 140mph+ in the 1/4.. period. Else it is not making that level of power.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

Keep up the good work...

In my opinion dyno #'s don't mean much other than a relative tuning tool. I can easily show plots of 1000whp... and everybody would believe me.

It's best to urge the customers or a shop vehicle to get VERIFIED 60-130 or 1/4 mile times. You don't need to go breaking axles to get a good trap speed. Take DMETuning for example, he just trapped 140mph in the 1/4. That's a solid 800whp on a Stage 1 setup and only justifies all the dyno/tuning work he has published. I trapped 143mph on a similar setup and expect 147-148 on the Stage 2.

If an M5 is making 820-850whp, it needs to run sub-6s 60-130 (< 3% slope) and trap 140mph+ in the 1/4.. period. Else it is not making that level of power.

I agree. I would also like to add to that, the consistency of such power levels. As allmotor well knows, because he installed an ICE tank, unless you have done other major work such as installing an ICE tank or worked on the engine internals, such high power levels will probably not be consistent run after run after run, back to back with no breaks in between.

[TrevorM3]

that is the problem^

alot of guys on here are running around with ticking timebombs, pushing way more power than the motor knows what to do with, without the proper supporting equipment.

[greentrbo95gst]

I must have been gone for a while, but where are all the low 10 sec time slips?

[allmotor_2000]

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst

I must have been gone for a while, but where are all the low 10 sec time slips?

We need you back bud!!

10.7 is the next best and DMETuning did it @ 140mph traps and M6Beast did a 10.8 or something a while back @ 129mph.