UPDATE - RESULTS! BMW M5 - Frozen Red - Akra/stage 2 - DP's & 102 OCT - BRP

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by AstonMartian777

So it's about 650whp with 102 octane

That's 109 RON

[PeterPure]

Originally Posted by RingMeister01

That's 109 RON

No they meant RON102 fuel (Available in Germany). For reference RON98 fuel over here is comparable to 93 US fuel. That 102 fuel will be comparable to 95 US fuel.

[Erik K.]

Did they also remove the speedlimiter?

[darkz]

Where can we get a piece of this in Canada?

[Quicksilver72]

Originally Posted by EndBosS

@Quicksilver72, it's a 4x4 dyno

That may be so, but it's still measuring power at the wheels, not the crank. Dynostar literature describes their products as ''roller' dynos.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver72

Unless I'm missing something, you would have to pull the engine and use an engine dynamometer to measure crank horsepower & torque. It appears that the dyno you are using is of the rear wheel variety. What have I missed?

Many dynos have the capability to measure drivetrain losses and calculate crank HP and TQ.

Generally the MAHA is considered to be the most reliable for this. I have also used the INSORIC myself and can report to a very consistent and repeatable measurement of crank numbers (when compared to manufacturers claims).

[Timberwolf]

Originally Posted by EndBosS

DAILY RESULTS:

729,1 PS - 901,5 Nm

* we decided to remove the max boost flash this due to the high amount of PM's we got, claiming a max boost flash isn't reliable and doesn't count!

daily map:

Exciting stuff, but please post your Wheel Horse Power numbers as us North Americans go by that. Crank HP is for Porsche guys
Thanks for the info! Keep it coming!

G

[Quicksilver72]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Many dynos have the capability to measure drivetrain losses and calculate crank HP and TQ.

Generally the MAHA is considered to be the most reliable for this. I have also used the INSORIC myself and can report to a very consistent and repeatable measurement of crank numbers (when compared to manufacturers claims).

Yes, but at the end of the day it's still a calculated figure, not a direct measurement.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver72

Yes, but at the end of the day it's still a calculated figure, not a direct measurement.

True. But I have more faith in a MAHA crank number than a Dynojet WHP number...

Dynojets are known to read as much as 50+hp higher than what is measured on a MAHA. Their WHP numbers are sometimes even higher than crank hp on a MAHA... And the MAHA dynos are the industry standard in Germany as well as the only dynos approved by manufacturers (incl BMW) to measure hp.

And finally, comparing numbers from different dynos is a fools errand The variation between dynos, and even between the same brand and model, is well documented. When one brand can have a 15% variation in readings for the same car, comparing different dynos makes little sense. What dynos are best at is before and after measurements, on the same dyno, to show the gain from the tune

Just my 2 cents

[AstonMartian777]

Originally Posted by Boss330

True. But I have more faith in a MAHA crank number than a Dynojet WHP number...

Dynojets are known to read as much as 50+hp higher than what is measured on a MAHA. Their WHP numbers are sometimes even higher than crank hp on a MAHA... And the MAHA dynos are the industry standard in Germany as well as the only dynos approved by manufacturers (incl BMW) to measure hp.

And finally, comparing numbers from different dynos is a fools errand The variation between dynos, and even between the same brand and model, is well documented. When one brand can have a 15% variation in readings for the same car, comparing different dynos makes little sense. What dynos are best at is before and after measurements, on the same dyno, to show the gain from the tune

Just my 2 cents

Ok then at least we need to have a baseline run and then after the car is tuned on the same dyno, not to base gains on 560hp that's on the paper, thanks !

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by AstonMartian777

Ok then at least we need to have a baseline run and then after the car is tuned on the same dyno, not to base gains on 560hp that's on the paper, thanks !

That's exactly what we have here...

We have a baseline run at 561,5hp and then a run after all the mods!

The baseline run is a actual dyno run, it's not a reproduction of stock numbers. Neither hp nor TQ is exactly as per the manufacturer graphs and it's not the exact same numbers either.

The stock run was done on December 6th at 6:30PM with a bit cooler air than the tuned run that was done on December 15th at 12:49PM.

[Erik K.]

The MAHA dyno is probably a (very) good dyno, but i have my doubts about the used software and/or used drivetrain losses in the software of the MAHA dyno's.

For example the Hulk PP-Performance M6GC, PP claims to have 804HP at the crank @ 630RWHP. That should be about 27,5% losses..??? Usually it's about 15% for rwd cars.

The M5 of M-Bitious did about 647,5RWHP @ 745HP at the crank (not measured at a MAHA) That's about 15% I've been on dyno's with a lot of cars but have never seen so much losses as on the MAHA dyno's, not only so much losses at PP, also other tuners who use MAHA. Why is that...???

The measurements of this red M5 looks pretty reliable to me by the way.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Erik K.

The MAHA dyno is probably a (very) good dyno, but i have my doubts about the used software and/or used drivetrain losses in the software of the MAHA dyno's.

For example the Hulk PP-Performance M6GC, PP claims to have 804HP at the crank @ 630RWHP. That should be about 27,5% losses..??? Usually it's about 15% for rwd cars.

The M5 of M-Bitious did about 647,5RWHP @ 745HP at the crank (not measured at a MAHA) That's about 15% I've been on dyno's with a lot of cars but have never seen so much losses as on the MAHA dyno's, not only so much losses at PP, also other tuners who use MAHA. Why is that...???

The measurements of this red M5 looks pretty reliable to me by the way.

This has been discussed over on the F8x forums several times. The MAHA operates in a different way than other dynos and the Pschlepp value (when the MAHA is run in crank HP mode) supposedly also includes losses outside the drivetrain. Others have gone in more detail on this, but you definitely can't compare the Prad and Pschlepp values from a MAHA with RWD from a Dynojet or similar.

There was one member who did two runs on a MAHA, one in "crank HP mode" and one in "RWHP mode". The Prad value was significantly different between the two modes. I'm not sure what is included in the Pschlepp value on the MAHA in crank hp mode, but it definitely is more than just drivetrain losses. I'm pretty sure they do a good job on this, especially since MAHA are the only chassis dyno certified by type approval authorities and manufacturers to be used for type approval testing etc.

[Erik K.]

Thank you for you're response.

Isn't it so that RWHP should always be the same on each dyno for the same car?

For example, an M5 with 600RWHP on a Superflow dyno should also have 600RWHP measured on a MAHA dyno? Of course at the same circumstances.

Otherwise we won't be able to compare (tuned)cars and tuners with eachother..??

[AstonMartian777]

Originally Posted by Erik K.

Thank you for you're response.

Isn't it so that RWHP should always be the same on each dyno for the same car?

For example, an M5 with 600RWHP on a Superflow dyno should also have 600RWHP measured on a MAHA dyno? Of course at the same circumstances.

Otherwise we won't be able to compare (tuned)cars and tuners with eachother..??

No, take mustang dyno, it'll show much smaller number than dynojet

[Erik K.]

Originally Posted by AstonMartian777

No, take mustang dyno, it'll show much smaller number than dynojet

That's maybe because the difference between HP and BHP, something like that?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Erik K.

Thank you for you're response.

Isn't it so that RWHP should always be the same on each dyno for the same car?

For example, an M5 with 600RWHP on a Superflow dyno should also have 600RWHP measured on a MAHA dyno? Of course at the same circumstances.

Otherwise we won't be able to compare (tuned)cars and tuners with eachother..??

This is one of the major problems with chassis dynos. They simply don't compare well.

In theory you are correct, they all should measure the same WHP (if that's what you set them up to do). After all there is a definition of how much work 1HP really is.

But in real life, the dynos measure wildly varying numbers. Dynojet numbers are between 370WHP to 425WHP on stock F8x M3/M4 when measured at different dyno shops, but all of them using the same type of Dynojet dyno. So as you can see, you can't even compare different Dynojet dynos, even though they should be similar.

This topic has been thoroughly debated over on some of the other forums here. A thorough examination of different dynos showed that most of the common dyno suppliers (like Dynojet, Mustang etc) had a variation of between 10-15% when measuring the same type of car on the same type of dyno, just on different dyno shops.

You simply CAN NOT uncritically compare dyno measurements taken at different dyno shops, even though it's the same type of dyno...

In contrast, the MAHA is certified to measure WHP within a 2% tolerance...

IMHO, we have cheap simple dynos that do a good job of measuring before and after HP and TQ numbers but that doesn't necessarily measure a scientific and exact HP number (the dyno graph says it's HP and Nm, but it clearly is not HP and Nm as defined by science...). You could almost say that they just measure a number. The point is to see if that number is higher after the modifications or not...

On the other hand, we have MAHA (and possibly a few others) that are certified and calibrated to actually measure and show numbers that are within 2% of the scientific definition of HP and TQ.

Both kind of dynos can be used to show "before and after" gains. But only the last type should be used to actually make a measurement that represents a true and scientific HP and TQ rating.

So, to answer your question:
No, you can't compare different tuners just by looking at a dyno graph (unless they all are from a MAHA dyno). If the tuners provide before and after dyno runs, then we could compare the delta between stock and tuned, which would at least give us an idea about the gain made by the tuner.

[Erik K.]

Thanks,

Of course when you do tuning at you're car by using the same dyno it's perfect to see the differences before/after tuning.
I also think the measured RWHP with a MAHA dyno is good, but i just can't agree with the calculated crank HP by MAHA.

I've seen the topic in the topic in the F80/F82 section about the MAHA and INSORIC "road" measuring.
Just like i expected the car (M5CP) measured at the MAHA dyno, which gave (a lot) more crank power, lost in the acceleration tests against the M5 30 Jahre (less power). Don't know about the RWHP of both cars, but i guess the M5 30 Jahre came out higher?

My personal experience with different dyno's is that good dyno's will (almost) give the same results, especially RWHP.
I've been on two completely different dyno's. One 4WD Superflow dyno and the other one a 2WD (don't know the brand)
Both dyno's gave within 1 RWHP the same results!
My car has a N/A engine, turbo engines can give a bit more variation.

What i mean to say is that some tuners use MAHA dyno's and post great HP figures so it looks they are maybe better tuner than other ones.
For example BR-Performance uses another dyno and came out with this red M5 to about 730HP at the crank. It does look a lot less comparing to the Hulk M6GC of PP with 804HP.
So it looks like PP is the winner...But when you take this red M5 to PP and put it on the MAHA you will also get about 800HP at the crank. I'm 100% sure.

[mastek]

You should never "calculate" crank hp.
If you want crank hp, take the engine out and hook it up to a proper engine dyno (aka not necessary)

The best way to quantify any hp gains is by 'any' whp dyno doing a few baseline runs ... then install mods, then wait .... and then a few more whp dyno runs.

Otherwise, you are doing your own unnecessary, speculative math.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by mastek

You should never "calculate" crank hp.
If you want crank hp, take the engine out and hook it up to a proper engine dyno (aka not necessary)

The best way to quantify any hp gains is by 'any' whp dyno doing a few baseline runs ... then install mods, then wait .... and then a few more whp dyno runs.

Otherwise, you are doing your own unnecessary, speculative math.

Well, the MAHA dynos seems to make a pretty good job of measuring real drivetrain losses. It's not "your own speculative math" by a long shot...

And since those dynos are considered the Rolls Royce of chassis dynos, and used and approved by manufacturers and type approval authorities, I trust their Pmot number more than a Dynojets WHP...

[Erik K.]

If the MAHA dyno is the benchmark, the M5 of M-Bitious has about 825HP at the crank.

As far a i know the most powerful S63Tu engine

[MCarsFan]

Installed my DMEs back in my car today from BR Performance. Shipping the ECUs off to Belgium and back to CA took about 5 days.

The car has a completely different feel when you put your foot down. Under normal driving conditions you have a sense of the increased power. When you put your foot down the acceleration is absolutely fantastic.

Car feels very fast, almost unmanageable without the traction control as the torque increase is amazing.