Why Porsche?

[URBAN LEGEND]

Originally Posted by boots

When I had my boxter back in 99 it was a great car to me. We put approximately 30k on the clock b4 a 18 wheeler crashed into my wife. The car was totalled and guess what. . We got all our money back from the bank. It was like driving the car for free. As far as the driving experience it was fun and had it's own nice tone to it. I will buy one at some point but still having fun driving my m. I disagree w some of the guys views here if you have never owned one but these p cars are two very different ones and to me there is no comparison. Totally diff drive experience. Just like from boxter- 911-c4-tt. All diff.

Boxster...

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

Well I would admit - I'd rather drive a Bentley Continental GT Speed than a Ferrari 458!

I like comfort.

Me too. Old age sure changes perspective. Not sure I cold get my butt out of a McClaren more than once or twice...

Still, you may be accelerating the Alzheimer's a bit early if you already are looking right past the 458. Us old guys should still have an appreciation for that fine leather and that glorious sound. Pretty sure you would like this new FF I am driving for the weekend. Luxury and CRAZY performance. 4,100 lbs and you'd never know it. V12 and you would never not know it.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by M5

The BMW //M Models depreciate like Bricks Also. Never heard of Porsche offering a $299/Lease. Must have a significant down Payment. Any High end P-Car ($150-200K) Is going to have shit resale. Virtually the same thing for all High end cars.

P-Cars have never been about the Tech. They will never be. They are all about the drive.

Only if you overpay.

BMW M models represent real value in my opinion because the dealers don't charge MSRP.

I couldn't get a start of season Panamera Turbo custom built below MSRP. I know because I tried last August. The moment you walk in and say you want a turbo well equipped with custom paint they think they can charge MSRP and won't budge from that.

With the M5 you can buy close to invoice if you know your dealer well and get the CCA discount.

My 2013 M5 I owned for 16 months and lost $12,000 in depreciation. I bought it for 97 and sold it for 85 after 10k miles and 16 months. That's about $800 a month. You wouldn't get anywhere near that value retention on a Panamera Turbo or GTS.

The reason many here lost their shirts on their M5s is because they either:
1) Pay too much in the first place
2) Buy it in the middle of model year rather than the first month it comes out which means they spread the 1st year depreciation over too few months.
3) Modify or crash their cars thereby compromising resale value.

I've studied pricing of all brands because I pride myself on minimizing TCO. If you want a Porsche buy used from some idiot who underpriced the car. If you want a BMW the same is true, but you can also do very well buying new at ED invoice at start of model year and then selling 12 months later.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Me too. Old age sure changes perspective. Not sure I cold get my butt out of a McClaren more than once or twice...

Still, you may be accelerating the Alzheimer's a bit early if you already are looking right past the 458. Us old guys should still have an appreciation for that fine leather and that glorious sound. Pretty sure you would like this new FF I am driving for the weekend. Luxury and CRAZY performance. 4,100 lbs and you'd never know it. V12 and you would never not know it.

FF???????????? Damn, my dream car!

[alexey21]

I would like to touch in some opinions mentioned in this post.

I notice how some people mention that Porsche cars lack technology. While the p-cars do not offer the full blown I-drive or a heads up display, they feel it is not required. In all honest opinion all these gadgets, yes I said gadgets... Like go go gadget this or that, on a 911 is pure monkey business. A 911 is a driving experience and there truly is no substitute. Now if we look at technology wise from a performance point of view, well the Porsches are more advanced than the M5, and this is what you pay for. No doubt Porsches are over priced, but part of that cost is that technology. Most people don't realize the amount of technology they use, but try to keep the driving experience as pure and raw as possible.

For example, P-cars have PDCC, a way to manage body roll in keeping you flat and even throughout the corners. Active Engine mounts fill with a electro magnetic liquid to increase stability in corners, and reduce oscillation from the engine while accelerating and braking. The New 911, generation 991 now feature on their top cars a rear active steering feature that steers the rear wheels up to a certain degree depending on speed and drivers input to either give the illusion of an extended wheelbase. Sports exhaust, which comes from the factory, is a great feature that allows you to have two sounds in one car. The PDK alone is a great advancement in the field of dual clutch transmissions. Finally, the variable turbine geometry, is on a whole different level and incorporates it technologies. Should I even mention the new turbo lip called active aero dynamics?

So, the technology is there, it just depends on where you look. Makes sense to have all the creature comforts on a luxury rocket, but also nice to have all the performance technology on a sports car. It would make no sense at all if it were the reverse.

[rafaele92]

Well guys , i had a E92 M3 2010 for 3 years , it was my best car , after 70.000 km , i thought , lets upgrade to something else. and I ordered a 991 2S with full options and took 3 months of waiting , WELL , Porsche wasnt what i was expecting ,

lots of raddle noises ( guys in the dealership said it was normal cuz its a sports car ) M3 doesnt did any.

cheap quality , no technology ( oh boy i miss Idrive )

no HUD.

no technology

Hard

Lots of wind noise and rocks in the exhaust sytem ( catback ).

so i got sick of it , and with 8000 km´s i Sold , still for a good value.

and ordered a M5 F10 CP than i am waiting to arrive.

so Porsche its good , but i think people kinda overated them .

BMW M is underated for some people , they think a M3 or M5 its just a normal BMW.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by alexey21

The New 911, generation 991 now feature on their top cars a rear active steering feature that steers the rear wheels up to a certain degree depending on speed and drivers input to either give the illusion of an extended wheelbase

This is really nice feature/technology you mentioned. BMW introduced this feature in 2009 (If I'm not mistaken) for 7 series and then put it on F12/F13 6 series when they came out in 2010/2011. I had this feature on my first 650i Coupe. it's up to 3 degrees and 37mph. I'm not sure if the M cars have this "Integral Active Steering" ....here is the link to this feature:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t..._steering.html

[emkmd]

I thought the reason was obvious. M5 on order.

[avlnch]

You really have to own both cars and drive them for some time to accurately comment. Some of what others have said is accurate and some is not.

The tech in the Porsche is incredible.. but it's all in the driving experience. The dash tech on the Porsche is great (the dash computer next to rev dial), but the other systems don't compare to iDrive. The backup camera is blurry. It doesn't bother me one bit. Another member specifically mentioned PDCC.. which is genius. Honestly, I don't need iDrive caliber tech in the 911. I don't even use the blurry backup camera. I love how flat the car stays throughout a bend. The bounce you get pushing the car around a bend makes you laugh and realize why your M5 is the DD.

The 911 TS and M5 are completely different animals. I couldn't own the 911 as daily driver. It's a pleasure to drive the M5 again.

I think a lot of M5 owners (incl myself) find themselves interested in Porsche because it's that next step up in terms of performance and handling. It a fantastic car, and after driving it you understand the M5 is a well balanced car and the 911 is a track machine.

[ONEOF40 FS M3]

TWO WORDS: DRIVING EXPERIENCE

I do not care if it is a plain 911, 911S, GT3...the driving experience is above anything an M car can offer specially with all the new turbocharged engines.

I have owned the last three M5s (E39, E60, F10) and currently own an E92 M3 along my latest acquisition 991C2S 7MT. After 2000 miles, 991 is a precise driving tool and all that matters seems to work flawlessly (steering, brakes, suspension, transmission, shifting, clutch), the engine noise is unique, the car is planted on the road, sticks alike anything I have ever driven before, it is the overall driving feeling and handling. The 991 becomes an addiction but make sure keep the revs up, not a hard thing to do when one of my other cars is an S2K. I have always looked for reasons to drive my cars but no more than with the 991.

Now after said all of that; when I drive the E92 M3 right after I get out of the 991, the E92 M3 is a fine piece of engineering with a jewel of an engine. The NA V8 sound is glorious. Overall not at the level of a 991 but not far behind considering the extra weight.

The F10 M5 I said it before and I said it again, it is the best overall car I have ever driven and the best overall car in the market today. As other people said, not sure these cars should be compared as these cars have different purposes but I understand people that like performance cars looking at very different cars based on the market offers.

All of these comparisons are just that, and it is all a matter of personal preferences and what each one wants out of a car.

I like manual cars even if it is an F10 M5 because I like the driver's involvement, other people like comfort and technology. To me it is all about enjoying the driving experience and what is under the hood after all it is car. Gadgets, technology packages, radios, stereos, driver aids packages, that it is all secondary and do not even care if it has any of it.

Would I drop an F10 M5 for a Porsche?

YES for a 991 if you are looking for a more pure driving experience.

NO, it you need more than a two seater, prefer room and comfort, like monster torque and triple digits speeds at all times.

If you can have both, have them! Unless something better comes along; I will probably order another F10 M5 before its life cycle ends, it is that good! I would have it now, but no room for four cars right now.

Are any of these cars worthy? Only oneself can answer that question.

[stubenhocker]

Originally Posted by 14M5

The BMW //M Models depreciate like Bricks Also. Never heard of Porsche offering a $299/Lease. Must have a significant down Payment. Any High end P-Car ($150-200K) Is going to have shit resale. Virtually the same thing for all High end cars.

P-Cars have never been about the Tech. They will never be. They are all about the drive.

Absolutely correct sir!

No way any BMW can compare to the 911 insofar as driving is concerned.

I have 2 BMW's and a 997.2, the Bimmers are great cars but Porsche is on an entirely different level!

[GoodandEvil]

Originally Posted by avlnch

You really have to own both cars and drive them for some time to accurately comment. Some of what others have said is accurate and some is not.

The tech in the Porsche is incredible.. but it's all in the driving experience. The dash tech on the Porsche is great (the dash computer next to rev dial), but the other systems don't compare to iDrive. The backup camera is blurry. It doesn't bother me one bit. Another member specifically mentioned PDCC.. which is genius. Honestly, I don't need iDrive caliber tech in the 911. I don't even use the blurry backup camera. I love how flat the car stays throughout a bend. The bounce you get pushing the car around a bend makes you laugh and realize why your M5 is the DD.

The 911 TS and M5 are completely different animals. I couldn't own the 911 as daily driver. It's a pleasure to drive the M5 again.

I think a lot of M5 owners (incl myself) find themselves interested in Porsche because it's that next step up in terms of performance and handling. It a fantastic car, and after driving it you understand the M5 is a well balanced car and the 911 is a track machine.

After reading stealth.pilot's response I feel that I'm not so eager to own a 911 at this moment, but after reading yours I think at some point in the future I really should get one.

[GoodandEvil]

Originally Posted by ONEOF40 FS M3

TWO WORDS: DRIVING EXPERIENCE

I do not care if it is a plain 911, 911S, GT3...the driving experience is above anything an M car can offer specially with all the new turbocharged engines.

I have owned the last three M5s (E39, E60, F10) and currently own an E92 M3 along my latest acquisition 991C2S 7MT. After 2000 miles, 991 is a precise driving tool and all that matters seems to work flawlessly (steering, brakes, suspension, transmission, shifting, clutch), the engine noise is unique, the car is planted on the road, sticks alike anything I have ever driven before, it is the overall driving feeling and handling. The 991 becomes an addiction but make sure keep the revs up, not a hard thing to do when one of my other cars is an S2K. I have always looked for reasons to drive my cars but no more than with the 991.

Now after said all of that; when I drive the E92 M3 right after I get out of the 991, the E92 M3 is a fine piece of engineering with a jewel of an engine. The NA V8 sound is glorious. Overall not at the level of a 991 but not far behind considering the extra weight.

The F10 M5 I said it before and I said it again, it is the best overall car I have ever driven and the best overall car in the market today. As other people said, not sure these cars should be compared as these cars have different purposes but I understand people that like performance cars looking at very different cars based on the market offers.

All of these comparisons are just that, and it is all a matter of personal preferences and what each one wants out of a car.

I like manual cars even if it is an F10 M5 because I like the driver's involvement, other people like comfort and technology. To me it is all about enjoying the driving experience and what is under the hood after all it is car. Gadgets, technology packages, radios, stereos, driver aids packages, that it is all secondary and do not even care if it has any of it.

Would I drop an F10 M5 for a Porsche?

YES for a 991 if you are looking for a more pure driving experience.

NO, it you need more than a two seater, prefer room and comfort, like monster torque and triple digits speeds at all times.

If you can have both, have them! Unless something better comes along; I will probably order another F10 M5 before its life cycle ends, it is that good! I would have it now, but no room for four cars right now.

Are any of these cars worthy? Only oneself can answer that question.

I'm not really a manual fan, largely because I've never owned a manual car. Few manual cars I've driven are like trucks, corolla and BYD (1.0 engine displacement)...But may I ask a stupid question, do you feel the travel distance of clutch pedal is too long in the M5? I ask this because I fell it's easier and faster to press clutch pedal to the bottom in cayman than in m5(in showroom) I may also consider to own a manual 911 as weekend car, so that I won't regret the fact that never owned a manual

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by GoodandEvil

After reading stealth.pilot's response I feel that I'm not so eager to own a 911 at this moment, but after reading yours I think at some point in the future I really should get one.

He's got a Turbo S, and I have been looking at C2S. There's a big difference. The Turbo S is a fantastic product that beats almost anything at the same price point.

Cars like the C2S while they represent outstanding chassis development, they are cynical under-powered built-to-a-budget cars, which make the volume so guys like Avlnch can buy a car worthy of the Porsche badge. Yes they are great track cars compared to the M5 but that's saying jack because the M5 is a luxury sedan and the 911 is a sports car. But if you compare the 911 C2S to other sports cars, like the upcoming Z06 with Z07 package - that will be $30k less than a C2S and will totally annihilate a C2S on any race track.

Quite frankly I would always feel Porsche is short changing me unless the base 911 had the 3.8 C2S engine, and the C2S had a 450hp turbo charged engine with enough power to handily crush a Stingray.

[Mbdurham17]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

He's got a Turbo S, and I have been looking at C2S. There's a big difference. The Turbo S is a fantastic product that beats almost anything at the same price point.

Cars like the C2S while they represent outstanding chassis development, they are cynical under-powered built-to-a-budget cars, which make the volume so guys like Avlnch can buy a car worthy of the Porsche badge. Yes they are great track cars compared to the M5 but that's saying jack because the M5 is a luxury sedan and the 911 is a sports car. But if you compare the 911 C2S to other sports cars, like the upcoming Z06 with Z07 package - that will be $30k less than a C2S and will totally annihilate a C2S on any race track.

Quite frankly I would always feel Porsche is short changing me unless the base 911 had the 3.8 C2S engine, and the C2S had a 450hp turbo charged engine with enough power to handily crush a Stingray.

perfectly said

[ONEOF40 FS M3]

GoodandEvil,

The clutch travel was just fine for me and the clutch resistance spot on, not too soft not too hard. Best manual on an M5 to date. Much more refined than the E39 which clutch was heavier but the car overall was more raw. The shifter also has a proper travel and dead right height from the driving position. You can drive the F10 M5 from normal speed to insane speeds in a very comfortable way.

And regarding the C2S, it is a magnificent car with the great power if you drive it as it supposed to be driven. 100k, 120K, 140K....it is worth every single dollar!...and yes it can be a daily driver, when I am in town it is my daily driver and what an enjoyment.

If you want a lazy driven style, there are plenty of cars out there but again the driving experience will not be the same. Not better or worse but just not the same. Corvettes, Z06s, Z07s, GTRs, Viper, F-Type Coupe R, and the list goes on and on...still not the same driving experience. 400hp in a 991 chassis is lot of more than people think or read, with power delivery enjoyable at all times. With MT driving experience gets better and better. I am all for technology but new and more is not always better.

It is not about the fastest 0-60 or fastest 1/4 mile or a particular race track, it is about the way you feel when you drive the car that includes all emotions and senses. My S2K is not what you call a fast car in comparison, but when I drive it makes me smile every single time.

A second here A second there, who gives a F... There is always something faster out there ... Drive what you want, do not let any numbers state what you drive ...

[rafaele92]

If i said my age , you would be suprised hehe

I really like the 458 , and 911 , but the M5 its beast !

And i think Porsche cars are too expensive for what they are . too expensive options .

[rafaele92]

Originally Posted by rafaele92

If i said my age , you would be suprised hehe

I really like the 458 , and 911 , but the M5 its beast !

And i think Porsche cars are too expensive for what they are . too expensive options .

and NO , u cant use a 911 for daily driver , at least , i cant .

and im young , without any children

[GoodandEvil]

Originally Posted by ONEOF40 FS M3

GoodandEvil,

The clutch travel was just fine for me and the clutch resistance spot on, not too soft not too hard. Best manual on an M5 to date. Much more refined than the E39 which clutch was heavier but the car overall was more raw. The shifter also has a proper travel and dead right height from the driving position. You can drive the F10 M5 from normal speed to insane speeds in a very comfortable way.

And regarding the C2S, it is a magnificent car with the great power if you drive it as it supposed to be driven. 100k, 120K, 140K....it is worth every single dollar!...and yes it can be a daily driver, when I am in town it is my daily driver and what an enjoyment.

If you want a lazy driven style, there are plenty of cars out there but again the driving experience will not be the same. Not better or worse but just not the same. Corvettes, Z06s, Z07s, GTRs, Viper, F-Type Coupe R, and the list goes on and on...still not the same driving experience. 400hp in a 991 chassis is lot of more than people think or read, with power delivery enjoyable at all times. With MT driving experience gets better and better. I am all for technology but new and more is not always better.

It is not about the fastest 0-60 or fastest 1/4 mile or a particular race track, it is about the way you feel when you drive the car that includes all emotions and senses. My S2K is not what you call a fast car in comparison, but when I drive it makes me smile every single time.

A second here A second there, who gives a F... There is always something faster out there ... Drive what you want, do not let any numbers state what you drive ...

Thanks for your input, I agree with you about the importance of driving experience. At the end of the day, I just ranked 12780 in GT Academy (Virtual racing competition, top ranked guys get the chance to be trained and become real race car driver), so I will let those faster drivers to drive fast and stay behind to enjoy my own driving experience. Cheers~

[bobs619]

Cuz u need Viagra

[infamousq]

One thing about Porsche is they receive $23K in profit from every car they sell. That is probably one of the reasons they cost so much. I am sure BMW receives profit from each car but I don't know the figures on them. It's best to buy use from them.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...at-new-porsche

[Mikeisen]

I find it interesting that all these threads eventually turn into a comparison between a 911 and an M5. If you were going to compare and M5 to a Porsche, it would be the Panamera. But let's get back to the guys originally question.
He asked why M owners find Porsches to be so attractive. The answer is quite simple. Porsche puts the same love of car quality and performance into every car as does the BMW M division. The feeling you get when you drive either car is amazing and both cars companies should be applauded for this.