RW Carbon 3D Designs Style CF Front Lip HELP

[naiza3k]

Originally Posted by 13M5F10

I have seen in several instances that the factory making the CF for the original manufacturer is the one also selling the replicas in some instances.

I don't believe companies like RW are manufacturing the CF but rather acting as resellers.

You are absolutely right, RW isnt' manufacturing them but instead just purchasing from the factory and reselling it. Pretty common practice in the import industry.

[naiza3k]

Originally Posted by Darkshear

I nearly purchased RW stuff a couple months ago right after I got my M5. I would have, were it not for Trinity Auto Sport that liquidated their Vorsteiner stuff from their demo car at thirty cents on the dollar.

@Ilia@IND, I deeply appreciate the craftsmanship and investment in design and manufacturing of the high end brands. But for me, like many others, it's hard to swallow the price. My M5 is my only car. It was my dream car, and I sacrificed nearly every luxury in life over the last 10 years to get it; it mattered that much to me. So that being said, I'm not a wealthy guy, I'm just an ordinary guy that was lucky enough to buy a used M5. There is no scenario in my universe where I could spend $6,139 on three 3D Design pieces.

The funny thing is, I could really give a damn about the carbon fiber aesthetics. I have been going for the white/black contrast look on the car, and I would have been perfectly fine with some decent ABS plastic aero parts painted gloss black. But as it turns out, this is an M car so you can either buy the best carbon fiber aero parts money can buy, or the cheapest shit knockoff parts money can buy.

Why isn't there anything in the middle?

If I buy 3D Design, I expect absolute perfection. But I do not require absolute perfection to be satisfied.

With any business, diversifying your offerings to the market helps your business grow, right? Imagine if 3D Design offered a "Value Line" of products. They would appeal to a market of buyers that previously would have not been able to consider their offerings, like me. Granted, I do not know the intricacies of carbon fiber manufacturing, but if it's possible for them to apply their incredible engineering skill set to a line of products that still provide a level of quality that is superior to eBay, Amazon, or other random offshore garbage, then I'd be all over it.

Well put bro, I'm also on the same boat as you regarding the ownership of the m5.

The manufacturing process is all the same on these spoilers/lips no matter what kind of car it's car. The only difference is the brand and the market of the car, so if you own a m5 the price automatically doubles or triples compared to a regular 5 series.

The main difference between real brand vs knockoffs is brands have a reputation to keep so they may have a little more overhead by having someone go into the factory before each shipment to check the goods. Unless you have a good relationship with the factory and have done business with them for years knowing they will not cheat you in the quality. Most of the time this is the case, with my factories that's been producing for me 2+ years, I trust them and they know the standards I require so they will not ship anything that's defective and takes ownership in what they produce and send out for me. The problem with this kind of products is that anyone can setup shop for very minimal amount of invest, because their overhead is low and they don't pay attention to details; that's usually where the brand vs knockoffs differ. Don't get me wrong though, knockoffs can be really good if there is QC process in place or if they are produced out of a real factory instead of one of those mom and pop shops.

Now going back to RW, I strongly believe companies like them should be around because they cater to the rest of us consumers that don't have thousands just sitting around to blow away on parts that should cost 1/10 of the price. I strongly believe all they have to do is tidy up their manufacture and they would be a great vendor. From my understanding, these guys are still in the infant stages of their business so they have a lot of learning to do. Given if they provided poor service before and after sales and then shipped me a crap item then my opinion on them would be different but one of the most important part of this business is service! Even though I was frustrated but i think I still left as a happy customer.

I will try to offer them my help with the manufacturing if they are interested as I travel to Asia 4 to 5 times a year for product development and checking on my factories. I like to think I'm very knowledgable with plastic injection as well as carbon since I have developed many products that requires the use of Carbon or Dyneema for various reasons and have patents on them at the same time controlling the cost. No one here in the states can open a tool cheaper than me.

[M.FriedmanFast]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

I'd like to have an open dialogue with the owners on this forum, regarding this issue. Many M5 owners are business owners themselves, and so understand the dynamics of markets and the manufacturing process intimately, so I believe that we can have a constructive conversation.

As many of you know, RW Carbon does not create original designs- they wait for another company (like 3D Design) to invest thousands into engineering, development, and tooling, and simply make a mold of the original part after the fact. Most 3D Design components are created from pre-preg material in an autoclave, and shipped over from Japan, so keeping prices low is a constant struggle for both IND as 3D's distributor and for 3D themselves. RW parts are created in a country with cheap labor (that may violate more human rights than some are comfortable with), and is made with vacuum infusion wet carbon for a far lower build quality (and clearly substantial fit and finish issues).

I know that the M community appreciates well made parts, created by honest people. I know that the M5 community specifically knows that for 3D Design, making the best part possible is a matter of personal honor, and that 3D components are second to none in terms of fit and finish.

I also understand market forces, and I understand that it is not possible to twist the arm of the market, and convince people to do something that they don't want.

So, my question is this: what would it take to eliminate purchasing of RW replica products, and to have M owners purchase the genuine component? A 50% reduction in price is not possible, and the solution may not lie in price point alone, but I would like to hear constructive feed back from my fellow M fans.

If it were not for companies like 3D Design, RKP, Vorsteiner, M Performance, Mode Carbon, and many others that create original designs that RW replicates, RW would have no parts to sell. I wonder if 3D's best bet is to simply stop designing carbon parts- at least then RW would be forced to invest some of his own effort.

I am being completely open and honest with my thoughts and feelings with the forum on this issue, and I look forward to feedback from the M community that I have loved and have been dedicated to serving for over 12 years.

Hello All,

I am an infrequent if not non-existent poster yet am a voracious consumer of the information on this board; which is predominantly accurate and oftentimes lends to informed modification decisions on my stable. However, this post particularly offended not just my sensibilities, but the very precepts of basic economic theory; I would go as far as to describe it as an affront to the most basic form of intellect. What the author is positing (perhaps unintentionally), within the pretext of an "open and honest" dialogue, is that we as M-owners are somehow indebted to the first movers in the after market for various goods; and that we are furthermore, as means of servicing said debt, to pay a premium for said goods (very appropriately perhaps, interest). It gets worse, that in servicing this artificial debt, we should willingly and knowingly boycott firms who offer products with a higher price to value ratio, thereby decreasing competition and ultimately increase the average price paid in future periods. This could be one the most preposterous arguments I have ever witnessed.

The decision for 3D or the like to invest capital to develop a product should be based on achieving a return that does not yield an opportunity cost. They should therefore seek to achieve the lowest cost basis to do so as pricing is determined over time by the market, and eventually, price degradation occurs. The reality is, as we all know, the M-tax is a very real phenomenon and due to our collective and insatiable desire to customize our vehicles, we pay it. Having owned every M5 ever produced, I've experienced this tax on virtually every aftermarket component developed. It is incredibly naive to assert that but for 3D et al, these components would not exist; surely they would, as other investors would develop them (at a lower marginal cost) to fulfill the demand that clearly exists. There is a fundamental difference between being an innovator and a shrewd capitalist. The former innovates at times for virtue's sake and the latter has the sole objective of maximizing returns. To malign companies such as RW Carbon because they rightly position their products lower and to the left of the premium offerings on the price to value curve is well, obtuse. Copying products that present no intellectual property as a barrier to do so is a sound business strategy and the consumers benefit.

This all said, I am not at all sensitive to price and have purchased premium and knock-off CF, and have had both positive and negative experiences respectively. I'll stop with the diatribe now, but seriously, a bit of intellectual honesty in this market would be refreshing. We would be far less prone to flame attempts to promote one's brand if those promoting would readily admit that they over-price because they can. Just don't feign victimization when the market adapts or worse, encourage the creation of pseudo-monopolies.

[ARKONE]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

I'd like to have an open dialogue with the owners on this forum, regarding this issue. Many M5 owners are business owners themselves, and so understand the dynamics of markets and the manufacturing process intimately, so I believe that we can have a constructive conversation.

As many of you know, RW Carbon does not create original designs- they wait for another company (like 3D Design) to invest thousands into engineering, development, and tooling, and simply make a mold of the original part after the fact. Most 3D Design components are created from pre-preg material in an autoclave, and shipped over from Japan, so keeping prices low is a constant struggle for both IND as 3D's distributor and for 3D themselves. RW parts are created in a country with cheap labor (that may violate more human rights than some are comfortable with), and is made with vacuum infusion wet carbon for a far lower build quality (and clearly substantial fit and finish issues).

I know that the M community appreciates well made parts, created by honest people. I know that the M5 community specifically knows that for 3D Design, making the best part possible is a matter of personal honor, and that 3D components are second to none in terms of fit and finish.

I also understand market forces, and I understand that it is not possible to twist the arm of the market, and convince people to do something that they don't want.

So, my question is this: what would it take to eliminate purchasing of RW replica products, and to have M owners purchase the genuine component? A 50% reduction in price is not possible, and the solution may not lie in price point alone, but I would like to hear constructive feed back from my fellow M fans.

If it were not for companies like 3D Design, RKP, Vorsteiner, M Performance, Mode Carbon, and many others that create original designs that RW replicates, RW would have no parts to sell. I wonder if 3D's best bet is to simply stop designing carbon parts- at least then RW would be forced to invest some of his own effort.

I am being completely open and honest with my thoughts and feelings with the forum on this issue, and I look forward to feedback from the M community that I have loved and have been dedicated to serving for over 12 years.

I purchased a RW Carbon front lip and it was absolutely garbage. They would not do any sort of return because it took me about a month from purchase to realize it didn't fit (I got the bumper a week later, and couldn't get an appointment at my body shop like 10-14 days later). I instead went with Vorsteiner and iND for paint matched parts.


Sure the Vorsteiner front lip was 2x as much and the iND stuff was 1.5x as expensive as eBay crap, but it was an easy fit and customer support is top-notch. Not sure what portion of M owners are skimping and going for 3rd brand garbage but I'd say we need to have a more open discussion and call out shitty companies.

[13M5F10]

Originally Posted by Karney5

I purchased a RW Carbon front lip and it was absolutely garbage. They would not do any sort of return because it took me about a month from purchase to realize it didn't fit (I got the bumper a week later, and couldn't get an appointment at my body shop like 10-14 days later). I instead went with Vorsteiner and iND for paint matched parts.


Sure the Vorsteiner front lip was 2x as much and the iND stuff was 1.5x as expensive as eBay crap, but it was an easy fit and customer support is top-notch. Not sure what portion of M owners are skimping and going for 3rd brand garbage but I'd say we need to have a more open discussion and call out shitty companies.

I guess it's a hit or miss because I had the RW front lip and so did MCarsFan and fitment and quality was perfect. I had Vorsteiner as well and I agree it's high quality.

Personally, if I have an option to purchase a 3D Design replica that fits perfectly and quality is there, why would I pay triple the price for the original. It's going to get scraped and broken anyways. I went through 3 different sets on my front.

[josec70]

Agree; on my 2nd lip as well and glad I didn't spend much on the first. I did go with an M-Performance Rear Center Diffuser since that is less prone to damage.

No issue with fitment on the front lips either.