Flash TUNE - Dyno Inside - Help

[epiphanyray]

Ok, So tuner has been great in chasing this issue with me. You guys have also been great helping out with this! Please do continue!

We just flashed the car stock, and I did two pulls in 3rd gear from 1500rpm-7000rpm. Car is much slower. Cant even break traction in WOT second gear.

Stock log 1st pull:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nuiltsi5g5...klog1.csv?dl=0

Stock Log 2nd Pull:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l68lml87y3...klog2.csv?dl=0

Here is one of the graphs from the software I am using to log. Just a few variables in there like WGDC, Boost setpoint and Actual boost and rpm. Let me know If you guys want me to post another image with more variables etc.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I would consult with your tuner and follow their advice. Would not drive the car in boost as I said before. Log with a bone stock file and send it to me - I'm happy to take a look. You should see the Wastegate duty cycle drop into the 50's with the stock tune if everything is working properly in terms of the turbos/wastegate. Lean under boost like that is a recipe for disaster.

Mike both CSV files are there for you to take a look at. Thanks!!

[epiphanyray]

Going to go to dyno this morning. Apparently these numbers from my pulls last night are weak. Dont know actual whp/wtq but i shall soon find out.

Im wonderinf if i can calculate whp/wtq from my log results

[epiphanyray]

Ok. Just dynoed the car, 1 pull. 5th gear. Definitely LOW Power. AFR still in high 14s low 15s.

Car is completely flashed back to stock. One thing my dyno guy also pointed out is that my Muffler tips are always pretty shiny They are never black as in NO FUEL. I also told him that my car doesnt have the CARBON filters inside the intake housing. What do you guys think? Can a boost/vacuum leak cause this horrible AFR and issues like the one I am having?

[BadGTR]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

Ok. Just dynoed the car, 1 pull. 5th gear. Definitely LOW Power. AFR still in high 14s low 15s.

Car is completely flashed back to stock. One thing my dyno guy also pointed out is that my Muffler tips are always pretty shiny They are never black as in NO FUEL. I also told him that my car doesnt have the CARBON filters inside the intake housing. What do you guys think? Can a boost/vacuum leak cause this horrible AFR and issues like the one I am having?

Oh my. Stock tune and that lean. Still super dangerous. Most dyno shops won't even finish the pull when your air fuel is that lean.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by BadGTR

Oh my. Stock tune and that lean. Still super dangerous. Most dyno shops won't even finish the pull when your air fuel is that lean.

Thanks BADGTR. So AFR is the problem (safety/power). Can a Boost/vacuum leak cause such a Lean condition? What are the culprits in our cars for such a Lean condition?

[kevn23]

I hope the AFR measurement is accurate. Is it measured from the tail pipe?

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by kevn23

I hope the AFR measurement is accurate. Is it measured from the tail pipe?

Yes, from tailpipe.

[apexlocator]

I didn't look at your log files because I don't have Dropbox on my phone, did you log fuel pressure/trims? Bad fuel pumps can certainly lean out your AFR.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by apexlocator

I didn't look at your log files because I don't have Dropbox on my phone, did you log fuel pressure/trims? Bad fuel pumps can certainly lean out your AFR.

Here you go: Try this:

http://www.thinkepiphany.com/wp-cont.../stocklog1.csv

http://www.thinkepiphany.com/wp-cont.../stocklog2.csv

[Mcc420]

Is the car throwing any codes? Do you have downpipes? Bad maf sensors or bad o2sensors would also make the car lean. Also bad map sensors if the ecu’s are not seeing boost then it might not enrichen the fuel. I’m just trying to give you some ideas. But I’m really surprised the car is not throwing any codes. If it’s a bad pump it should be saying multiple misfires.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by Mcc420

Is the car throwing any codes? Do you have downpipes? Bad maf sensors or bad o2sensors would also make the car lean. Also bad map sensors if the ecu’s are not seeing boost then it might not enrichen the fuel. I’m just trying to give you some ideas. But I’m really surprised the car is not throwing any codes. If it’s a bad pump it should be saying multiple misfires.

NO CODES. No DOWNPIPES. Bad Maf Sensors (dont know, dont think so. Will clean them tomorrow with Electrical Cleaner just for the sake of doing something to them - at the end of the day, If I have to replace them i will. Bad Map Sensors? Not Sure. Dont think so, (same as maf sensors).

Thanks for the Ideas.

[epiphanyray]

The quest for making my car "richer" continues... (this really sucks). So, pressurized both Intercoolers and checked for boost leaks and NOTHING. Car is SOLID. We pressurized with the car off, and NOTHING. Not a peep.

Checked both Turbos, and one was dry/clean, and the other was Oily. Thoughts? Take a look.




Since we are after "FUEL" to make car richer, I will look at fuel filter tomorrow and see if it is in bad shape. I believe it has never been replaced and the car has close to 49,000 Miles. Crap.... does this thing have a fuel filter i can replace??

Any other ideas? How do I get to the fuel filter? Underback seat? Or under the car (remove plastic covers etc)?

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

The quest for making my car "richer" continues... (this really sucks). So, pressurized both Intercoolers and checked for boost leaks and NOTHING. Car is SOLID. We pressurized with the car off, and NOTHING. Not a peep.

Checked both Turbos, and one was dry/clean, and the other was Oily. Thoughts? Take a look.




Since we are after "FUEL" to make car richer, I will look at fuel filter tomorrow and see if it is in bad shape. I believe it has never been replaced and the car has close to 49,000 Miles. Crap.... does this thing have a fuel filter i can replace??

Any other ideas? How do I get to the fuel filter? Underback seat? Or under the car (remove plastic covers etc)?

Check the PCV valve/hose on that side. We just recently replaced one that was faulty. There is a new design that supersedes the older one - not a bad idea to replace both.

[BPMSport]

Sorry - app was fighting me. Here are some pics from the leaking side vs the non leaking side:

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Sorry - app was fighting me. Here are some pics from the leaking side vs the non leaking side:

Got it. I will look into this ASAP and replace. Did you by any chance take a look at logs and other info? Any other ideas?

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by epiphanyray

Got it. I will look into this ASAP and replace. Did you by any chance take a look at logs and other info? Any other ideas?

No, I'll have to look when I have free time - which is rare these days. Perhaps next week. My customers have to come before you - sorry about that.

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

No, I'll have to look when I have free time - which is rare these days. Perhaps next week. My customers have to come before you - sorry about that.

Totally agree. Thank you for your time and advice.

[epiphanyray]

I looked up an old post by Mike@N54Tuning.com can be found at:
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=950053

he posted this dyno pull for a stock m5, and his AFRs are not that far from mine. Am I missing something? Was that car also running dangerously lean AFR?

I am about 20footlbs of torque more than him, but 20hp less.

[edysinger]

My suggestion, after looking through your logs, is to take your care to another dyno facility and get it measured. In your logs, your targeted Lambda starts dropping after 4800 rpm like it should to about 0.88 (~12.8 to 1). Your measured Lambda (calculated from the O2 sensors) is following the demand to 0.88 Lambda.
It could be you are chasing a problem that doesn't exist and it could be the dyno facility's air fuel measurements are out of calibration or you have a leak in your exhaust causing a leaner reading than is actually there.

See if this is repeatable on a different dyno would be a cheaper option at this point before you start throwing parts at it or dyno tunes.

[apexlocator]

Originally Posted by edysinger

My suggestion, after looking through your logs, is to take your care to another dyno facility and get it measured. In your logs, your targeted Lambda starts dropping after 4800 rpm like it should to about 0.88 (~12.8 to 1). Your measured Lambda (calculated from the O2 sensors) is following the demand to 0.88 Lambda.
It could be you are chasing a problem that doesn't exist and it could be the dyno facility's air fuel measurements are out of calibration or you have a leak in your exhaust causing a leaner reading than is actually there.

See if this is repeatable on a different dyno would be a cheaper option at this point before you start throwing parts at it or dyno tunes.

Sound advise, especially since you've ruled out vacuum issues, running new plugs, no codes being thrown, and I'm assuming the car runs fine??

[epiphanyray]

Originally Posted by edysinger

My suggestion, after looking through your logs, is to take your care to another dyno facility and get it measured. In your logs, your targeted Lambda starts dropping after 4800 rpm like it should to about 0.88 (~12.8 to 1). Your measured Lambda (calculated from the O2 sensors) is following the demand to 0.88 Lambda.
It could be you are chasing a problem that doesn't exist and it could be the dyno facility's air fuel measurements are out of calibration or you have a leak in your exhaust causing a leaner reading than is actually there.

See if this is repeatable on a different dyno would be a cheaper option at this point before you start throwing parts at it or dyno tunes.

EDY, that is good advice. There is ONE MORE dyno in my country, and I will see if I can get to it tomorrow and see what that one has to say. This is super weird. Cleaned out maf sensors, checked for leaks and nothing! How do you recommend I check for exhaust leaks on this car? (plug all but one tip in the mufflers and blow air through remaining tail pipe? - Start spraying water across entire exhaust piping all the way to downpipes?