MDM Really let me go sideways! No like :-)

[shahano]

wow.. Is that the story of him flying of the runway? R.I.P.
Drive safe everyone.

[RPiM5]

Stealth, I remember that dude AmericanM5. I remember the effect it had over on the M5Board community when the news broke that there was an M5 crashed and multiple people died. At first the media tried say that it was his Father's M5, but anyone that knew him, knew that his Father had bought the M5 for him.

Such examples should be a reminder that although the M5 is a family sedan it has the power of a super-car and takes more skill to handle because M5's are heavier than your average super-car. I feel that MTV is but only the first person that the current F10 M5 generation of owners will start to see that represent younger drivers 22yrs old and younger who do not understand the power of the F10 M5 and just how dangerous it is. As the unfortunate as it is, the F10 M5 like every generation before it, will depreciate in value a little too fast and within the next year or so, we'll start seeing values of 2013 F10 M5's drop into the $60k range maybe even the $50k range. Within 2 years $50's and $40's. This puts the F10 M5 into a pricing segment that will be within the reach of younger people 20-25yrs old. I hope I am wrong, but I am expecting that we may start seeing a lot more crashed F10 M5's in the future because of the lack of respect and immaturity of future owners. When most of us were in that younger age range, we only had M5's and other similar cars in the 400hp range, now these new millennials' will be able to own cars in the 600hp to 700hp range. that's a lot of power for someone who grew up in the video game generation.

The stock E60 M5 with only 500hp, 383tq, and DSC OFF was a dangerous car to drive. I know because in my early days of ownership I tested the limit of the E60 M5 and almost crashed multiple times, luckily I never did though.

I've already tested the limits of the F10 M5 in some ways, and I already know that this generation of M5 commands 10x more respect than the E60 M5 with DSC OFF. Only after driving the E60 M5 for over 60,000 miles and 3 years could I drift it safely at will. The F10 M5 is a different story, and I think it will take longer to master it and will require lots of practice in a safe environment like an HPDE or a closed road course. The 2-Day ///M School is a great start to learning how to drive a current F Generation car with DSC OFF or in MDM Mode. I recommend attending the ///M school multiple times in order to get as much seat time as one can before attempting anything with your own car.

With that said, if MTV ever gets into an F10 M5 in an unsupervised situation, I can already see the news story breaking on Jalopnik.

I think we all need to take a step back and appreciate, respect, and realize the true power of our F-Series ///M cars after what happened to Paul Walker last weekend. I just don't want to read about anyone else dying senselessly in a high performance street car. Just remember MTV if you are reading this, tomorrow is promised to no-one.

[ChrisNich117]

Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot

I saw his post too... how tragic. A kid M5 owner goes from bragging about his M5 "max settings, DSC off" on one day to dead the next. (news story here)

We have a saying in my community that would seem to apply..

"there are bold pilots and old pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots"

MTV, im not butthurt; no nerve has been struck... My responses were simple and swift after you interloped into a cautionary threat amongst fellow F10 M5 owners with bad, uniformed advice. I thought your original post was taunting and boastful.. your additional responses don't sway me from that opinion.

I guess I could say take your opinions on how to drive the M5 back to the E60 section of the forums where at least you might have some credibility.

I'll say again, drive the M5 to its max at your own risk. If you are going to do so, you are not going to figure it out by yourself, as a 24 year old. If you think are a self-taught DSC-off driving phenom, and the rest of us are a bunch of p***ies, I hope someone else is watching over you.

Instead of arguing with us, seriously peruse these forums and see exactly how those who have pushed their car to the limits have done so before you offer any advice on what the right setup is for an M5. (DSC off in the snow? why?)

I'm 24, got my e92 m3 coupe when I was 19, and then my f10 m5 in January. I've always been responsible, never gotten into an accident. I don't abuse the power of my cars just to show off or let my ego get the best of me, but the truth is younger drivers are simply better. Formula 1 drivers are pretty young guys, that says a lot. Actually the average age is about 24! I don't see any 40 year olds winning races since oh I don't know, since the 1950's? Younger sharper minds with more acute senses make for a better driver period. Now if that person has had shit parenting and no legal education on what the consequences might be for being a reckless driver than good riddance. One less ass clown you need to worry about in traffic. Driving is a privilege, and driving a super car is a privilege and a much greater responsibility. I hope no one 40 or over takes this the wrong way. I live in Florida and These 70 year olds are far more dangerous then you guys blowing through stop signs. Ever had an old lady jump on the wrong side of the road? Not a pretty picture. I'd have to paint that portrait in a nice burgundy if you catch my drift. Ah drift! Yet another pun, on a roll! Oh there it is again. Poet and I don't even know it.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

I'm 24, got my e92 m3 coupe when I was 19, and then my f10 m5 in January. I've always been responsible, never gotten into an accident. I don't abuse the power of my cars just to show off or let my ego get the best of me, but the truth is younger drivers are simply better. Formula 1 drivers are pretty young guys, that says a lot. Actually the average age is about 24! I don't see any 40 year olds winning races since oh I don't know, since the 1950's? Younger sharper minds with more acute senses make for a better driver period. Now if that person has had shit parenting and no legal education on what the consequences might be for being a reckless driver than good riddance. One less ass clown you need to worry about in traffic. Driving is a privilege, and driving a super car is a privilege and a much greater responsibility. I hope no one 40 or over takes this the wrong way. I live in Florida and These 70 year olds are far more dangerous then you guys blowing through stop signs. Ever had an old lady jump on the wrong side of the road? Not a pretty picture. I'd have to paint that portrait in a nice burgundy if you catch my drift. Ah drift! Yet another pun, on a roll! Oh there it is again. Poet and I don't even know it.

Actually I think we were suggesting that the highest risk was among 17-22 drivers.

Younger guys have better reflexes, but better reflexes don't necessarily make better drivers. Training, judgement and experience are important too. While there are some young drivers such as yourself who have judgement, experience, and training to drive performance cars, most young drivers do not.

Here are some interesting facts from the NHTSA.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811161.PDF

[ChrisNich117]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

Actually I think we were suggesting that the highest risk was among 17-22 drivers.

Younger guys have better reflexes, but better reflexes don't necessarily make better drivers. Training, judgement and experience are important too. While there are some young drivers such as yourself who have judgement, experience, and training to drive performance cars, most young drivers do not.

Here are some interesting facts from the NHTSA.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811161.PDF

Totally on board with you. It's lack of education and guidance. People, mostly young adults, want what they can't have and when they finally get behind the wheel of their dream car nothing but anxiety and testosterone take over.

[richard in NC]

But a 40 year old or even 50 or older with F10 experience would be better than any 20 year old with zero experience driving the car. Even if th experience is with an M3 or E60 M5, the F10 requires a higher level to control it and that is a statement from the BMW Performance Center experts.

PS: I have driven the F10 M5 at the PC, Lime Rock, and CotA yet do not claim the experience to drive it DSC off but did get the back end out in MDM mode.

[ChrisNich117]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

But a 40 year old or even 50 or older with F10 experience would be better than any 20 year old with zero experience driving the car. Even if th experience is with an M3 or E60 M5, the F10 requires a higher level to control it and that is a statement from the BMW Performance Center experts.

PS: I have driven the F10 M5 at the PC, Lime Rock, and CotA yet do not claim the experience to drive it DSC off but did get the back end out in MDM mode.

That doesn't have any logic behind it. If I were to track my car I would agree. But owning any car doesn't require an age limitation if you were to simply drive around normally. You are implying illegal and or reckless driving on public streets. If you want to drive like that after your "experts" educated you then you are no more intelligent than the 18 year old who killed all his friends.

[solstice]

It takes maturity to fully realize your fragility/mortaility and unlimited responsibility to your family. These are IMO the most powerful deterents to reckless behaviour in your car and elsewhere. It's not always enough as the sad Paul Walker story with two fathers prove but it's something that I think of every time I grab the wheel which wasn't a factor in my 20s. Be careful out there and use DSC outside the track, it's an amazing system designed to keep you and others safe while still being able to enjoy these beasts to 8/10s. The likes of Jezza, Chris Harris and Tanner Faust make it look like drifting is the only way to enjoy a powerful car. It isn't and it belong on the track.

[Hoopumpers]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

but the truth is younger drivers are simply better.

All credibility lost. Experience makes a better driver, not age. Racing is a craft (like pottery or painting). Skill is derived from repetition and education. Natural talent certainly is a factor, but not the primary one.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

I'm 24, got my e92 m3 coupe when I was 19, and then my f10 m5 in January. I've always been responsible, never gotten into an accident. I don't abuse the power of my cars just to show off or let my ego get the best of me, but the truth is younger drivers are simply better. Formula 1 drivers are pretty young guys, that says a lot. Actually the average age is about 24! I don't see any 40 year olds winning races since oh I don't know, since the 1950's? Younger sharper minds with more acute senses make for a better driver period. Now if that person has had shit parenting and no legal education on what the consequences might be for being a reckless driver than good riddance. One less ass clown you need to worry about in traffic. Driving is a privilege, and driving a super car is a privilege and a much greater responsibility. I hope no one 40 or over takes this the wrong way. I live in Florida and These 70 year olds are far more dangerous then you guys blowing through stop signs. Ever had an old lady jump on the wrong side of the road? Not a pretty picture. I'd have to paint that portrait in a nice burgundy if you catch my drift. Ah drift! Yet another pun, on a roll! Oh there it is again. Poet and I don't even know it.

I agree with the first part of your comment re your respect for powerful cars and your ability to reign in your ego; however the part about younger drivers been better: maybe on the track but with road driving, experience counts for so much more. You just don't rely on reflexes and acute senses to get you out of a hairy situation, you rely on experience not to get you into that situation in the first place!! Bottom line is drive safely on the roads as there are other road users who may not have your ability.

[shahano]

I am also young and drive the F10 M5. But on the other hand, I race professionally in Europe. I do not agree that it depends on the age but rather on experience (on track). Just as long as people know their limits on the streets we will remain safe. It is ok to drive with DSC OFF on the streets, but knowing your limit is the most important. The most dangerous for any driver is trying to impress other people or driving with Alcohol in their system. That said, the M5 is definitely more powerful than any other sedan out there. Have fun but be careful.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

I'm 24, got my e92 m3 coupe when I was 19, and then my f10 m5 in January. I've always been responsible, never gotten into an accident. I don't abuse the power of my cars just to show off or let my ego get the best of me, but the truth is younger drivers are simply better. Formula 1 drivers are pretty young guys, that says a lot. Actually the average age is about 24! I don't see any 40 year olds winning races since oh I don't know, since the 1950's? Younger sharper minds with more acute senses make for a better driver period.

I like your style -- I paid cash for my first BMW (a 3-series vert) when I was 19.

But I think your claim that younger driver are "better" is a bit off, and determining what age is actually considered younger (I'd like to think I'm still a bit young) is subjective as well. However, statistics do show that younger isn't better, when it comes to daily DRIVING.

RACING is a different issue --Formula 1 drivers aren't young because of mental agility but because of physical fitness requirements of the race environment that older bodies cant keep up with -- a requirement M5 drivers don't need to worry about. By the way, all the main F1 winners are older than 24: Vettel is 26, Hamilton is 29, Massa and Alonso are 32, and Webber is 37! And Vettel is like the Tiger Woods of driving -- a phenomenal talent who started racing at 3 1/2 years old. F1 drivers tend to average younger ages because they get worn out, and its not something one picks up later in life as a hobby. As comparison, if you look at NASCAR, there are plenty of 45+ year olds who have won in the last 10 years --

Younger is not necessarily better... but it is almost always less experienced. In my profession, the best pilots are senior captains/new majors (in or around the 28-35 year range). Too young and not enough experience, or too much older and lack of currency (not flying enough) and errors become more common. This isnt to say younger guys can't do it -- we regularly "give the keys" to 22 year olds to go fly $100 Million dollar aircraft by themselves, and I flew with a 23 year old copilot last week. All that said, aircraft safety incidents reflect almost exactly with the driving stats stealth posted.

But car racing and flying arent day to day driving, so how does any of this relate then? Experience, not age, is the key factor in safety until about 65 years of age.. according to the safety statistics, its after about 65 when age can impair driving (additionally 65 is the max age limit for an airline pilot -- for all the same reasons).
If you have driven and tracked your car non-stop since you were 19, and it is your primary job/sport/hobby, odds are you are a better driver than most of us. If you have been daily driving a BMW for the past 5 years and that's it, odds are those with 5-35 years of experience of doing the same are going to be "better".

[ChrisNich117]

First off let's not bring Nascar into this. This is a BMW forum not a go straight and hang left for 500 laps group. As far as professional racing goes, younger drivers are statistically better and more younger drivers are winning these races every year. Retirement age is right around 40 for this profession. NASCAR I'm sure they'll let you race so long as your commemorative plates keep selling on the HSN.

Daily driving is as safe as you make it no matter what age you are. I think it really depends on just how quickly you moved from a truck to a performance vehicle. Anyone can continue being a defensive driver in a Ferrari but if you just won the lotto and came into money for the first time in your life you're going to drive around like a maniac.

Your senses are perishable, this is not an opinion but fact. The older one becomes the less acute your senses are. Instincts are a completely different study. The older you are and more experienced you are means you'll have a greater arsenal of methods in which to handle a given situation not because you're sharper but because you've already experienced something similar allowing you to react quickly.

Racing and daily driving both require instinctual input and I think so long as one has put in 10000 hours into something they'll turn out ok like in that Outliers book hahaha. Seriously though, these cars are beginning to outperform the driver. Manual to automatic DCT trannys from the f22 raptor being too maneuverable for the pilot to handle to its limits. Drones will replace fighter pilots and sat nav intelli systems will replace automobile drivers in the future. Google has already started this. So enjoy it while you can because every year there is less and less driver input because technology is outpacing our physical abilities, no matter how old you are.

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

That doesn't have any logic behind it. If I were to track my car I would agree. But owning any car doesn't require an age limitation if you were to simply drive around normally. You are implying illegal and or reckless driving on public streets. If you want to drive like that after your "experts" educated you then you are no more intelligent than the 18 year old who killed all his friends.

In no way am I implying illegal or reckless driving is advocated on the street. If anything just the opposite in that an older person or one with more track experience is LESS likely to drive recklessly on the street. A typical 18-20 year old is far more likely to punch it to see what she'll do, or accept a challenge at a stop light, or have a short fuse and race after an idiot.

If you are of young age, and never drive the e60 M5 to its limits on the street (and consequently would never need DSC to intervene), you are in the minority for your age.

PS: the original argument that one should drive with DSC off, implies pushing its limits, consequently driving recklessly on the street. Even if you feel fully in control, you would be ticketed in a heartbeat doing a power slide in front of a police car.

[ChrisNich117]

Originally Posted by richard in NC

In no way am I implying illegal or reckless driving is advocated on the street. If anything just the opposite in that an older person or one with more track experience is LESS likely to drive recklessly on the street. A typical 18-20 year old is far more likely to punch it to see what she'll do, or accept a challenge at a stop light, or have a short fuse and race after an idiot.

If you are of young age, and never drive the e60 M5 to its limits on the street (and consequently would never need DSC to intervene), you are in the minority for your age.

PS: the original argument that you drive with DSC off, implies that you push its limits, consequently driving recklessly on the street. Even if you feel fully in control, you would be ticketed in a heartbeat doing a power slide in front of a police car.

I never said that, that was a different individual. Please read the thread in its entirety whereby your argument is void

I believe it was some guy with his fathers e60 m5 that claimed that he drove it with traction control off.

Reading is quite the nuisance isn't it. But perhaps it's memory loss further strengthening my argument that younger individuals are more capable drivers. Just kidding

[richard in NC]

Originally Posted by ChrisNich117

I never said that, that was a different individual. Please read the thread in its entirety whereby your argument is void

I did correct my post to be more clear. "You" was the group term, not you specifically.

[solstice]

Streets are unpredictable and not designed with run-off zones etc, so what if you are an expert race car driver and can control 99 out of 100 slides if that 100'd slide kill you or an innocent party. Even Formula 1 drivers spin off the track, something to think about. I ride a race bike without ABS, DSC, DTC etc but not to perform stunts on the street which would be the only reason to turn off DSC. Sorry for the rant but I really don't want to meet you going sideways wether I'm on my bike or in my M3.

[Neil McRae]

PYboy on road fly also killed himself and seriously injured his girlfriend. his action was similar to some of the crazies on this forum (esp the guy in Latvia or Slovakia or something who is always on about street racing)

when I drove up Stelvio I took the traction control off and it make a remarkable difference but this was for 180 degree corners at max 40MPH it made the M5 corner a lot better but as soon as back on the fast road DSC back on.

Even the best driver in the slightest damp who is full throttle and presses the up paddle is going to occasionally have a brown trouser moment - I recently did it in the M3 and was glad I had DSC on as it caught me slightly off guard.

Neil.

[soooma]

One of the best threads I read in a long while yet soberingly sad !!
I feel for the family and the father of the M5 young guy who died in his dad's present for him!!
How did his dad feel?
How did his mom feel towards his dad?
The whole family will never be the same again!
May God rest his soul and his friends' souls!? - and give peace to his family memebrs!!

I have learned a lot from this thread!

I turned DSC off once unknowingly too once in my Dinan 550i F10 with 580 torque and had just a couple of minutes of spirited driving and almost lost control over the car for a couple of seconds and hit a pavement aaround a d s ratchet my very wheels badly!
That is why no more DSC off for me till I learn how to drive in M school and even then am I gonna be a better driver that Rodas with Paul Walker in his GT3 RS 2005? No way!!

So please drive safe guys
Don't let you car be M5 coffins/caskets!! -

[N.S.A]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Thank you! 305s. Wide as I could go even with custom offsets.

wow 305MM on rear tire on a M5, THATS amazing looking post pics?

[6spdterror]

Theres no need to be turning off DSC completely or even MDM on public roads for everyday driving. I keep the traction off all the time in my Acura TL but my M5 is a different story. This car has more power than most people are used to and frankly it still scares me. Even if youve had 500+hp cars before they all behave differently. Like i said before, it aint like were driving cheap Nissan 240 drift cars, if u crash one of those no big deal! An M5 is an expensive rocket ship and me, like most here...would rather not risk damaging my 100k car.

[shahano]

Remove DSC completely when you go on early morning drives at 7 am on a Sunday or Saturday morning for some nice drifting . NO one else but you on the roads. No racetracks here, so its the only way to enjoy the car.