First Drive: Chris Harris Getting Sideways in Preproduction F10 M5 - DCT CONFIRMED!

[330CIZHP]

Agreed. Furthermore, single-clutch transmission downshifts/throttle blips are much more instantaneous and "generous" compared dual-clutch transmission since it does not have to decide which clutch to use based on odd or even gear selection. On the track, single-clutch automated maual is the way to go.

Not to mention, the newest generation of single-clutch automated manuals are actually becoming faster than dual-clutch transmission and they are far more exciting to drive as well with a manual-like feel.

One example is the newest single-clutch automated manual Lambo developed for the LP700 Aventador, which officially is 50% faster than the Audi DSG double-clutch transmission in the RS5.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The M5 used a SMG III box, not SMG II which was in the E46 M3.

Shifts in DCT type boxes are fast as shit provided, and here is the caveat, that the appropiate gear is preengaged. When it isn't, the box has to first prepare the gear and then shift.

So, if you take "shift time" as the time it takes from when you press the level to when a different gear is engaged, then:
SMGIII is *much* faster when an unexpected gear is ordered.
DCT is significantly faster when the expected gear is over.

SMG III can shift at 65 ms. That it had a shitty auto mode (read: that people didn't understand what the gearbox was and were disappointed when treating it as a slkushbox) does not take away from the fact that it was extremely fast.

To the best of my knowledge, both E92 M3s with DCT boxes that have run in the "Lightning Lap" of Car and Driver have had issues following commands when used in the track. Read the reports the same people did about the SMG III equipped cars (M5/M6) and you'll see there are no such issues.

I guess the problem is that SMG III is fantastic at a track, but the real uses of M5s and M6s are strolling around town...


SYT

[footie]

The unique thing about DCT is their shifts are super smooth and those shifts I might add are quicker than almost all single clutch transmission. The Aventador I doubt will offer a smooth shift (even in it's comfort mode) as an auto, not really necessary with a supercar but the M5 isn't that type of car so the DCT is the right choice. Looking forward to sampling this car when it becomes available.

P.S.
Great to hear they have finally seen sense and dropped the huge multiple mode offerings to a most sensible and manageable 3 setting.

[Nightcreature]

F10 + V10 should been the perfekt combo... And of course with this exhaust!

[TonyMeister]

Nissan GT-R sounds like shit and yet nobody complains.

[Yogijet]

brilliant!

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by TonyMeister

Nissan GT-R sounds like shit and yet nobody complains.

Thats because they only see it's arse and never the front.
M5 drivers included.

[Wolf]

I wonder why they gave chris the car in the snow... hmm BMW is playing with chris as well Its going to be a great car...

[Wolf]

Nobody noticed the RPM Range? in evo magazine website there is a picture of the interior... the M5 is turned off, redline at 7000... cant tell for sure but it seems like 7K... bummer but expected

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by uhn2000

Really? I think it sounds like lawn mower... will have to wait and see to hear it in person.

i hear what your saying not a screamer like the M3

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by Nightcreature

F10 + V10 should been the perfekt combo... And of course with this exhaust!

sounds good but not like the M3.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Wolf

Nobody noticed the RPM Range? in evo magazine website there is a picture of the interior... the M5 is turned off, redline at 7000... cant tell for sure but it seems like 7K... bummer but expected

Well, if it got to 7K still building power it would be much better than what's really going to happen, which is peak power at 6000 and 100 hp less at 7000.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Wolf

Nobody noticed the RPM Range? in evo magazine website there is a picture of the interior... the M5 is turned off, redline at 7000... cant tell for sure but it seems like 7K... bummer but expected

Redline appears to be at 7,100 rpm:




Best regards,
south

[BillLee]

Originally Posted by dmw16

Or a really big gas tank

'It has a bigger fuel tank than a regular 5 (somewhere between 70 and 80 litres, but they won’t say exactly what – I’m cleverly guessing 75) which with the much improved economy gives a real range of 400 miles.'

[yamazaho]

Oh wow me want a F10 M5 now.

[datbimmerdoe]

great news!

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by E60orBust

Whoa, wait, stop, backup. 550HP+ and have a range of 400miles per tank?

New king of cannonball

it said at least 550 hp i want 600hp.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The M5 used a SMG III box, not SMG II which was in the E46 M3.

Yeah, my bad there. I meant SMG III.

Shifts in DCT type boxes are fast as shit provided, and here is the caveat, that the appropiate gear is preengaged. When it isn't, the box has to first prepare the gear and then shift.

This is true, but the fact is that preselected gear is typically correct. From experience, I'd guess it is 80% of the time at least.

So, if you take "shift time" as the time it takes from when you press the level to when a different gear is engaged, then:
SMGIII is *much* faster when an unexpected gear is ordered.
DCT is significantly faster when the expected gear is over.

Here I disagree, based on years of experience driving a car with DCT. Even when the M-DCT must shift to another gear on the same output shaft, it is extremely quick. Definitely not slower than SMG III. Same is true when going down a few shifts in a row. They happen extremely quick - all of them. There is no real delay unless you do a multigear downshift. That has a noticeable (and sometimes annoying) lag.

SMG III can shift at 65 ms.

DCT can shift as quick as 10ms. But of course, optimal times are misleading for reasons you've mentioned above as well as others. If you drive an M3 and M5/M6 back to back on the track then the difference between the two becomes very clear. When shifting SMG, you have to deliberately time your downshifts a split second early coming into corners to get the shift to happen when you want it. With DCT, this is not the case. By the time you hand is moving back from the click, the shift is happening.

What I was getting at with my reply is that I hope this box has been correctly identified as a DCT, assuming the guy was making the call just based on feel. I realize that the DCT 7 vs. 8 speeds for the BMW Steptronic. I believe he is correct, however. Probably the comment was just an off the cuff thing meant to emphasize that the new M5 is as good or better than the old one in every category (except exhaust note, at least on the preproduction car). I do hope, though, that the DCT performance has not been effected by or adjusted do to the new engine somehow. I guess we'll have to wait until more tests are done, and with a non-preproduction car.

[quote]To the best of my knowledge, both E92 M3s with DCT boxes that have run in the "Lightning Lap" of Car and Driver have had issues following commands when used in the track. Read the reports the same people did about the SMG III equipped cars (M5/M6) and you'll see there are no such issues. [quote]

Car and Driver's findings do not necessarily jibe with others. Yes, DCT has faced some very well known bugs. But keep in mind there have been many DCT software revisions and it is known for a fact that the car in their first test did not have the lag fix. For the second car the results were surprising given that others have reported these issues were fixed in their cars long before that second test was performed. Bottom line is that you can read plenty of other M3 tests where the box responds exactly as asked to.

I guess the problem is that SMG III is fantastic at a track, but the real uses of M5s and M6s are strolling around town...

SMG III is great on a track - DCT is even better. Again, all you need to do is try them back to back to experience what I mean.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Agreed. Furthermore, single-clutch transmission downshifts/throttle blips are much more instantaneous and "generous" compared dual-clutch transmission since it does not have to decide which clutch to use based on odd or even gear selection.

The output shaft is preselected. Nothing about that must be decided at the time the rev matching occurs other than what RPM to rev to, and that must happen both with a single or dual clutch automated transmission.

On the track, single-clutch automated maual is the way to go.

The most important part is the shift times. On average a DCT is faster. But some newer single clutch or even planetary automatics are also extremely fast, yes.

Not to mention, the newest generation of single-clutch automated manuals are actually becoming faster than dual-clutch transmission and they are far more exciting to drive as well with a manual-like feel.

Far more exciting? Which ones have you driven back to back for comparison?

One example is the newest single-clutch automated manual Lambo developed for the LP700 Aventador, which officially is 50% faster than the Audi DSG double-clutch transmission in the RS5.

No one has even driven the Aventador yet, and you haven't driven the latter either. Plus, those are two completely different classes of car. It makes for a poor comparison. Once the Aventador arrives on the market, I'm sure it will be compared against the 458 Italia which has a dual clutch transmission. One advantage the single clutch transmission does have is a slight edge in weight vs. a typical DCT. This surely factored into Lamborghini's decision to go this route.

Speaking of the 458, its a spectacular track car, especailly the Challenge version which as you know retains the dual clutch transmission. In fact Ferrari even updated the ratios and software specifically for this car. Clearly a DCT is great for the track or Ferrari would have went back to the transmission in the Scuderia.

Like I said earlier The type of transmisison is less important than the shift performance. Right now, for cars below the "super car" realm DCT offers the best performance for the price. Pretty much everyone is moving from single to dual clutch for performance cars in these segments. And even above that there are only a couple hold-outs like Lamborghini and Aston Martin.

[White Shark]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

To the best of my knowledge, both E92 M3s with DCT boxes that have run in the "Lightning Lap" of Car and Driver have had issues following commands when used in the track.

To the best of my knowledge, BMW already fixed it ...

[footie]

I'm surprised that when we are talking about a difference between shift times of DCT and even the quickest SMG (Aventador) that's less than you could possibly blink, yet only one of these two transmissions could remotely pull off a perfect impression of a traditional automatic. That's what's important, the M5 is a big heavy luxury saloon first so the shift quality needs to reflect that and a sports saloon second which is why it's transmission shifts as quick as it does.

BTW don't get this confused, it's exclusively the software that determines how good these transmissions behave on the track, it has nothing to do with the technology itself, so if BMW get it wrong then don't blame DCT because all aren't the same.

[BMW269]

I think DCT is perfect for the M5. Not an AUTO, as the car is still a sporty car, but not an SMG as it is not only for "track". I think it would have been better if the M5 E60 came with DCT and the M3 E92 came with SMG. I really don't like the sound of DCT, sounds like an AUTO. The Lexus LF-A "SMG" sounds very good on the other hand.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

One example is the newest single-clutch automated manual Lambo developed for the LP700 Aventador, which officially is 50% faster than the Audi DSG double-clutch transmission in the RS5.

Lambo's official line on why the Aventador will be offered with a single clutch AMT is that the Dual Clutch is "too smooth" and does not offer "enough emotion".