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      06-03-2013, 04:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Not sure who is the fool The one who doesn't want to take aboard what BMW themselves say about the M5 and what BMW themselves promote and use the M5 for. Or the one who just says what BMW themselves say and do. Track use!

I have pointed out above that racing and a track use is two different things. And that what we are talking about is track use (like a track day), even though the 'Ring Taxi is used hour after hour, week after week on the Nürburgring.

Please read my posts

So, where am I repeating something you didn't say?




The thread is about a M5 in the M5 forum. You state a stock car isn't built or designed to cope with track use. Are you know saying that this isn't correct anymore, and that when you said tracking in your original post you really meant tracking for a prolonged period of time, also known as racing?

And excuse me if I didn't understand properly. English is my second language.
Tracking is repeated visits to the track and is equivalent to racing at some point. The wear and tear is cumulative. That is why I made the reference to racing in my initial statement. I fully understand we are talking about stock M5's here. A stock car is any factory manufactured car sold in a retail outlet. That is what we own. We do not own racing cars. The car in the video is a modified stock car.

I am an electrical engineer and I have been required to do work involving generators. I have had to study the cost and reliability of gas and diesel generators. I know what I am talking about when I say that sustained higher rpms and frequent transitions from high to low rpms results in lower reliability. It's a true statement. I don't know so much about transmissions and the rest of the drive train but I assume higher rotational speeds there amount to the same issue.

I was beginning to suspect we had a language barrier here.

The cars BMW uses for it's track days and other sponsored events are their responsibility. Race cars have their engines replaced regularly, often the engines are rebuilt after each race I think. If you track your car regularly, you are going to hasten it's demise. Metal wears out and fatigues. Pistons only have so many strokes in them and people only have so many breaths in their life. There is a belief that each man has a certain number of breaths and if you breath more slowly and deeply, you will live longer. I don't know if that's true but it's definitely true for engines regarding the number of strokes they have.

Do you know what a bathtub curve is?

Last edited by wrsbmw; 06-03-2013 at 04:21 PM..
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      06-03-2013, 04:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by wrsbmw View Post
Here is what I originally wrote, one more time and it doesn't amount to what you inferred.




1.) The car will wear out quickly by tracking it.

The statement implies continuation of the action, not a single event.

I thought I expanded on the idea when I said you shouldn't race a stock car and then made clear the issue was prolonged heat in a race.

I think you are implying that running the car for prolonged periods at it's operational extremes isn't a problem and that it's normal. I disagree. When you have an operational extreme, it is an extreme. The high end of the tach isn't the place for the engine to be operating on a regular basis. If you are an automotive engineer you know this and you know that reliability suffers as a result. This is what I was suggesting and I think I made that pretty clear in my subsequent posts. I even gave good physics based explanations for the laymen on the thread. You somehow still didn't catch my drift but that doesn't mean I didn't communicate clearly because at least one other poster did understand my statement.

I even clarified my statement with the suggestion/question that most people would use a second car for tracking, not their everyday car. I sure didn't spend $100k on my car to ruin it by running it too hard. I enjoy accelerating hard and driving it at high speed but I will be careful with it. This car generates tremendous heat just driving around town, way more than my 535 did.

I am not sure what your point to other owners is. If it's that you can run your car on the track without worry because BMW designed it for that, then I would suggest you are misleading them.

I am sure you can take your car out to the track and run it hard for a few laps. I don't know what a typical tracking experience amounts to but more than a few laps is inadvisable, at least in the way these people that post videos are running their cars. If you do it repeatedly, expect a major engine failure or transmission failure or both at some point. It's not like these cars have a very high reliability rating anyway. This stuff just makes it worse.
Again, I am not advocating that others track their car. Where have I said that? To the contrary I have pointed out over and over againg that track use or extended running at full speed on the Autobahn will increase wear. I think we both agree on this. But that is not the point. Because if the main concern is reliability, then you should buy a 528i and never do hard accelerations or drive it at over 65MPH. Because any "spirited" use will be to the detriment of reliability/wear.

The M5 was designed in Germany, where you have the Autobahn system with no speed limits (some parts have speed limits). Driving on the Autobahn, which I hope we can agree that German cars are designed and engineered to run on, includes prolonged periods at full throttle, heavy braking and then accelerating back to max speed. This is legal in Germany and I find it hard to believe that BMW designs a car that wouldn't cope with legal use of the car (i.e running at max speed mile after mile).

Yes, sure the engine will be under greater stress than it is if you strolled along at 65MPH, but if that's what you want to do, the buy the 520d (in Europe at least).

The car in the video has been driven over 30.000km with over 700hp and used extensively at high speeds...

Here are some videos that show legal and not atypical use on the Autobahn:







And one on track with a BMW paid driver:



The videos above show "normal" use of a M5 in Germany. A European/German high performance engine is designed to run at, or near, the redline for a prolonged period of time. If not it would not be any good in Germany

If you only run it at max revs, sure it will probably have detrimental effects on longevity. But materials are of such high quality today that it's not like in older engines where you had excessive wear in the cylinders and piston rings etc.

Basically the M5 is designed and engineered to be run just like you see in the videos. Track use isn't so different for the engine, but harder on the tires and brakes (even though you have som hard and long braking on the Autobahn - After a weekend on the Autobahn my car has more brake dust then it has after a few months driving on regular roads). If US warranty would cover that kind of driving in the US is a different matter (as I'm sure driving at those speeds is illegal in most US states ).

Last edited by Boss330; 06-03-2013 at 04:27 PM..
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      06-03-2013, 04:38 PM   #25
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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
The videos above show "normal" use of a M5 in Germany. A European/German high performance engine is designed to run at, or near, the redline for a prolonged period of time. If not it would not be any good in Germany

If you only run it at max revs, sure it will probably have detrimental effects on longevity. But materials are of such high quality today that it's not like in older engines where you had excessive wear in the cylinders and piston rings etc.

Basically the M5 is designed and engineered to be run just like you see in the videos. Track use isn't so different for the engine, but harder on the tires and brakes (even though you have som hard and long braking on the Autobahn - After a weekend on the Autobahn my car has more brake dust then it has after a few months driving on regular roads). If US warranty would cover that kind of driving in the US is a different matter (as I'm sure driving at those speeds is illegal in most US states ).
Honestly, what you can do and what is normal are two entirely different things. The guy in the first video was passing everything on the road. He was also running the car above 4500 RPM most of the time, that is not a good idea. If this is normal, how come everything else was going so slow on the autobahn, including other BMWs and Audis.

The guy in the second video was wearing a helmet on the autobahn. Is that normal?

Come on, you are exaggerating to make a point and I think you are kidding yourself. If you are doing this to your car regularly, good luck.

Drinking is legal here in the US but not everyone drinks a fifth of whiskey every day. Some do though and those that do generally have much worse health than those that don't. Same principle applies here. The people driving normal speeds will have less problems with their cars than the guys doing what you show in the videos.

Let me improve your statement

The M5 is designed and engineered so that it can be run just like you see in the videos.

If you continue to do this on a regular basis, your car will die rather quickly.

That being said, I know of roads where I can do just what you see there without any cops around. Texas is incredibly large, so much larger than you can picture in your mind or imagine. The number of empty roads here is just amazing. Of course you might have to drive a while to get to one but not so much for some. Anyhow, I drive around a lot and I get plenty of chances to do 125 for extended periods. I don't do it regularly though. The other thing for those of us here in the US is that we have a limiter that will keep us under 155mph or about 260kmph.

Last edited by wrsbmw; 06-03-2013 at 04:45 PM..
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      06-04-2013, 02:04 AM   #26
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Have you driven a lot on German Autobahns? Why LOL about something you clearly haven't experienced yourselves? What amounts to "normal" driving in the US, other European countries, and the Autobahn are quite different. I'm not implying that you drive at full speed ALL of the time. I even said that if you do that it would have detrimental effects (but again, we weren't talking about tracking the car ALL of the time either). But driving like in the videos are not uncommon, and at least far more frequent than going on a track

I have been to the US several times (we have family there, both in the midwest and in California) and driven on Interstates were you can drive in a straight line for 15 minutes, I am impressed by how vast you great country is (in fact USA is our favourite holiday destination)

I have driven on both US roads, European roads and German Autobahns (in fact I have even driven the MHR M5 in the video on the Autobahn). Let me tell you that driving at over 4500rpm is NOT uncommon for prolonged periods of time. And that the cars are designed to do that as well

Let me just finish by quoting BMW again:

Quote:
From a meeting straight to the race track – only possible in the BMW M5.

BMW M project engineer Maximilian Ahme is currently driving the sharpest company car in the world. We talk to him about the fascinating character of
the new power saloon.


For more than 25 years, the BMW M5 has been regarded as the sportiest saloon in the world. What makes the fifth-generation model even better than
its predecessors?


Ahme: Like every previous BMW M5, it is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. On the one hand a comfortable saloon, on the other a racing car. And both with
state-of-the-art design and optimum effi ciency.

What technology enables this strong performance?

We work with two precisely responding chargers and a special manifold for the optimised exhaust system. On top of that, there’s High Precision
Injection, variable lift of the intake valves and adjustable camshafts. And because our engine develops so much power, we completely filled the
available space under the bonnet with coolers.

What are the special features of the cooling system?

It is an extremely complex solution with a lie-flat oil cooler and two external coolers for the charge air. We have one circuit for low temperatures and one
for high. The charge air to each cylinder bank is cooled separately and we even air-condition the engine electronics.

Are there any more advantages to the new rear-axle lock?

The new lock is completely off during normal driving, so the new M5 is even smoother when the driver brakes sharply or steers spontaneously. This
was evident during our fi ne-tuning test drives on race tracks like the legendary Nürburgring. The lock also stabilises the vehicle in high-speed lane or other load changes.

The technical finesse of the BMW M5 makes for a fascinating drive. You have already covered many kilometres in this sharp company car. What impresses you the most?

The unique technology. From the engine, the transmission and the electronic dampers to the completely reworked suspension, it’s the perfect symbiosis of business and motor sport. On the one hand you can drive comfortably for long stretches and on the other, you can be ready for the racetrack at any time at the touch of a button. The switch happens via the two M Drive buttons on the steering wheel. The driver can configure these in advance according to preference. The result is a fantastic feeling: control and freedom.

If you believe that your car is so delicate that it isn't designed to be used as BMW intended, then I'm beginning to believe that you have bought the wrong car

Last edited by Boss330; 06-04-2013 at 02:31 AM..
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      06-07-2013, 05:47 PM   #27
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Looks like the cars at the COTA had problems with the heat here in Texas. Guess you don't know what hot really is. The conditions on the autobahn are a hell of a lot more favorable for sloughing heat than the ones we generally face here in Texas. Just saying.......
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      06-08-2013, 03:44 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by wrsbmw View Post
Looks like the cars at the COTA had problems with the heat here in Texas. Guess you don't know what hot really is. The conditions on the autobahn are a hell of a lot more favorable for sloughing heat than the ones we generally face here in Texas. Just saying.......
That's why manufactures do testing in Death Valley or similarly hot places. So it doesn't really make a difference if I know what "hot really is", as long as BMW does If not, BMW should have a warning on their cars: "Not for use in Texas, or any place with hot temperatures" (Just Kidding)

(And, BTW I have been to Death Valley in the summer so I have some idea about heat).

But, of course heat introduces some physics conditions that cannot be eliminated (air density etc). Turbo cars have traditionally been more vulnerable to extreme heat. So, yes running at 10-20 deg C is, by laws of nature, much more favourable than running at 40+ deg C! But don't forget that higher altitude are counterproductive to the advantages of cool temperatures. Running at 40 deg at sea level might not result in less hp than running at 20deg at elevation (depending on elevation of course). But cooling still remains troublesome at higher temperatures.

Guess there is a reason BMW air conditions the ECU!!!

Last edited by Boss330; 06-08-2013 at 05:46 AM..
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      06-08-2013, 06:08 AM   #29
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Yawn
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      06-08-2013, 06:55 AM   #30
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Yawn
You should get some sleep Or is it the Texan heat taking it's toll
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      06-08-2013, 08:44 AM   #31
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You should get some sleep Or is it the Texan heat taking it's toll
Not the Texas heat this time. Its the Louisanna heat/humidity and not being able to pick up my wheels and rpi not delivering my gtm exhaust for over a month now. Ok Rant over. Now lets get back to your guys story...
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      06-08-2013, 08:44 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
That's why manufactures do testing in Death Valley or similarly hot places. So it doesn't really make a difference if I know what "hot really is", as long as BMW does If not, BMW should have a warning on their cars: "Not for use in Texas, or any place with hot temperatures" (Just Kidding)

(And, BTW I have been to Death Valley in the summer so I have some idea about heat).

But, of course heat introduces some physics conditions that cannot be eliminated (air density etc). Turbo cars have traditionally been more vulnerable to extreme heat. So, yes running at 10-20 deg C is, by laws of nature, much more favourable than running at 40+ deg C! But don't forget that higher altitude are counterproductive to the advantages of cool temperatures. Running at 40 deg at sea level might not result in less hp than running at 20deg at elevation (depending on elevation of course). But cooling still remains troublesome at higher temperatures.

Guess there is a reason BMW air conditions the ECU!!!
Yes but I don't think they track them in that heat.

With regard to the ECU, electronics are extremely susceptible to heat. I designed embedded systems for avionics in the 80s. My stuff went into the F-15 and F-16 and some was in the cockpit but we had one box that went back by the exhausts. That one had to sustain temperatures up to 135C when they ran the afterburners. Designing boxes that can dissipate heat without Air Conditioning is very challenging and designing electronics that can run in those conditions is just as challenging. We did a lot of testing of our electronics under high temperatures and heat is the most difficult thing for the electronics to withstand. Constant cycling also produces problems as well because of the transitions. If you can put air cooling on your electronics, you are ahead of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boots
Not the Texas heat this time. Its the Louisanna heat/humidity and not being able to pick up my wheels and rpi not delivering my gtm exhaust for over a month now. Ok Rant over. Now lets get back to your guys story...
It's pretty hot and humid in Houston too. I am a native Houstonian but chose to stay in Austin after college back in the 70s. I just don't like the 95F /95% humidity that you get in Houston 6 months of the year. My sister and I have a house on Galveston bay down in LaPorte that we spent our summers at and where we lived for high school. My sister lives in the Heights so I visit Houston regularly, I prefer Austin for the drier heat.

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      06-08-2013, 10:08 AM   #33
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Yes but I don't think they track them in that heat.

With regard to the ECU, electronics are extremely susceptible to heat. I designed embedded systems for avionics in the 80s. My stuff went into the F-15 and F-16 and some was in the cockpit but we had one box that went back by the exhausts. That one had to sustain temperatures up to 135C when they ran the afterburners. Designing boxes that can dissipate heat without Air Conditioning is very challenging and designing electronics that can run in those conditions is just as challenging. We did a lot of testing of our electronics under high temperatures and heat is the most difficult thing for the electronics to withstand. Constant cycling also produces problems as well because of the transitions. If you can put air cooling on your electronics, you are ahead of the game.
That's really cool and must have been a very nice thing to have been part of

We have F16 fighter jets in our Air Force (Royal Norwegian Air Force), and have signed for the new F35 (my uncle is actually part of a design team within a weapon systems company designing some of the weapon systems for the F35).
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      06-08-2013, 10:40 AM   #34
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Not the Texas heat this time. Its the Louisanna heat/humidity and not being able to pick up my wheels and rpi not delivering my gtm exhaust for over a month now. Ok Rant over. Now lets get back to your guys story...
Wheels and exhaust sounds frustrating. Hope you'll get them soon
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      06-08-2013, 11:15 AM   #35
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Back to the subject, smoke is typical of hot drilled rotors where tire chunks get in the holes and contact-ignite. The pads can't reach and wipe the rubber off before that happens.

It could be my declining eyesight or the pixels in the video that prevent me from concluding that this is the case here.

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      06-08-2013, 01:10 PM   #36
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Thanks. I'll pick up my wheels when I return to Houston in a few days. They were on top of their game. Now, if I can get Rpi to leave the full exhaust line alone for a couple of days and make my gtm and overnight it I will give them the toy surprise that comes in the craker jack box. My jedi patience is slipping. I want MORE RPI POWAAAAA
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      06-09-2013, 03:25 AM   #37
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By the way I'm always in Austin at saltlick bbq.
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      06-09-2013, 08:25 AM   #38
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By the way I'm always in Austin at saltlick bbq.
Which one, driftwood or round rock? Used to be just the driftwood location but I hear the Round Rock one is every bit as good. I have pretty much quit eating meat the last few years. I had to in order to make the transition from my colon cancer surgery. I do eat meat every now and then but haven't been to salt lick since the night before UCLA killed UT at home a few years ago.

I have eaten a lot of ribs and brisket down there at driftwood, IMO it's the best BBQ in Texas.
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      06-09-2013, 08:53 AM   #39
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We go the one in driftwood. Nice drive for us only 2.5 hours away. I haven't been to he one in round rock, but should try it as I used to go up there on my yamaha r1 all the time. Sorry to hear about the surgery and hope all is well with you. Theres is another one we go to in Lockhart on the way to San Antonio called Blacks and Smittys bbq. They both are featured on the food network and I have been going to those for years also. We have one here in town called Burns bbq. They are good here, but not on the scale of the above mentioned. Actually, my wife has a reality show coming out about Burns Bbq that will soon start taping the begining of August on the Network BET. But I will post info for all to watch it at a later date. They have it posted up on their website. They are giving us 8 episodes so we are excited about that. OOps! Sorry to hack the thread guys... Now back to your regular scheduled posts...LOL
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      06-09-2013, 09:17 AM   #40
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We go the one in driftwood. Nice drive for us only 2.5 hours away. I haven't been to he one in round rock, but should try it as I used to go up there on my yamaha r1 all the time. Sorry to hear about the surgery and hope all is well with you. Theres is another one we go to in Lockhart on the way to San Antonio called Blacks and Smittys bbq. They both are featured on the food network and I have been going to those for years also. We have one here in town called Burns bbq. They are good here, but not on the scale of the above mentioned. Actually, my wife has a reality show coming out about Burns Bbq that will soon start taping the begining of August on the Network BET. But I will post info for all to watch it at a later date. They have it posted up on their website. They are giving us 8 episodes so we are excited about that. OOps! Sorry to hack the thread guys... Now back to your regular scheduled posts...LOL
I beat the cancer, I had the surgery in 2007 so it's been over 5 years. I had stage 3b colon cancer and beat odds of 45% to live 18 months. Anyway, my guts were not the same after losing the last section, that is the storage section. I have found that I can eat organic beef fairly well in burgers. Elevation Burger and HopDoddy both serve organic beef so I have them from time to time. I have been to Smitty's and Blacks as well as Kruez's, they are all good but I am a sauce guy and Salt Lick has the best sauce.

Franklin's is now supposed to be the ultimate in BBQ around here but you have to wait in line forever and he only makes a limited amount each day and runs it out of a trailer. Southside in Elgin is pretty good if you go 290. For a long time there was an old man that had a little red shack outside of LaGrange that was open Fri-Sun that was really good. I called it the old man BBQ but he never had a name on it. He had really good brisket.

If you want decent mass produced BBQ then Rudy's is good. I have heard that up in Dallas the best stuff is at Sonny Bryan's but have never been there. I grew up in Houston but never ate BBQ growing up in Houston, I ate lot's of fried seafood. I started getting into BBQ after I went to college. It's a lot more prevalent in Central Texas. My summers were spent on galveston bay and so we did crab and shrimp boils more than bbq. I love fried shrimp, can't get enough of that.
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