F10 M5 Future Competition

[RPiM5]

I just came across this video on the new 2014 CTS V-Sport narrated and reviewed by Carlos Lago. I know that the CTS V-Sport is not in the same segment as the F10 M5 and more in the realm of the BMW 550i, Audi S6 and Mercedes E550 but his comments on the new car made me realize one thing, the CTS V-Sport may represent the beginning of the era of the "light sedan." Carlos even says at the end how the Germans could learn a thing or two from this new car and I am left wondering what the next generation CTS-V is going to bring to the competition.

Here's my prediction, Cadillac will come out with a new CTS-V that will be under 4,000lbs and in 2019 BMW M will come out with a new GXX M5 under 4,000lbs.

[nynd]

Having owned two CTS-V's (09 auto and an 11 stick), I'm interested to see what the 2015 V will look and feel like. The car does have a sharp look from the front end so seems like they are off to a good start.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

And it is a given that when the cts-v does come out all the car critics are going to like it more than the m5 and the e63 Amg s. Why ? Because it will be about $ 20,000.00 to $ 25,000.00 cheaper and it is made by GM.

My '09 CTS-V actually had better steering feel (IMHO) than my F10 M5. The Magnetic shocks were also really good. The biggest down fall was the interior materials. Until they remedy that, it will never be an overall better car than the German competitors.

[Falcao]

Thanks for posting. I was shocked to read CTS-V sport was almost 400lbs lighter than 550 in another mag (i forgot which one). Keep in mind this is not the monster CTS-V that is M5 equal. That is coming probably in 2015 and that car should destroy the M5. We are talking a car that should be 4000lb and probably more power that previous 2009+ CTS-V which is LSA V-8 556hp/551 lb·ft tq. Holy hell.. i think easily 600+hp.. but it is still a caddy and the car will never look as good as BMW outside/inside i'm sorry.. but is looks and pedigree enough to make loyal customers stick with BMW? we will see..

What do you think 2015 CTS-V figures will be?
BMW really did themselves a disservice with F10 and not getting ahead of the pack in terms of weight reduction. Imagine F10 with 4000lbs weight and how much better of a car it could have been. The good news CTS-V is still limited by the gearbox and automatics not on par with DCT. I've always said once Merc or Caddy can put a proper DCT in their cars, it is game over for BMW.

As someone who loves BMW, it makes me sad because i think in terms of steering and performance, competition have caught up and surpassed BMW. BMW underestimated how much the competition improved over the years but then it is not fair because competition had a bogey to focus on and beat. As a competitor, it is easy to sit down and not lead when all you have to do is wait for your competitor to set a benchmark and dedicate all your resources to beating that benchmark.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Falcao

Thanks for posting. I was shocked to read CTS-V sport was almost 400lbs lighter than 550 in another mag (i forgot which one). Keep in mind this is not the monster CTS-V that is M5 equal. That is coming probably in 2015 and that car should destroy the M5. We are talking a car that should be 4000lb and probably more power that previous 2009+ CTS-V which is LSA V-8 556hp/551 lb·ft tq. Holy hell.. i think easily 600+hp.. but it is still a caddy and the car will never look as good as BMW outside/inside i'm sorry.. but is looks and pedigree enough to make loyal customers stick with BMW? we will see..

What do you think 2015 CTS-V figures will be?
BMW really did themselves a disservice with F10 and not getting ahead of the pack in terms of weight reduction. Imagine F10 with 4000lbs weight and how much better of a car it could have been. The good news CTS-V is still limited by the gearbox and automatics not on par with DCT. I've always said once Merc or Caddy can put a proper DCT in their cars, it is game over for BMW.

As someone who loves BMW, it makes me sad because i think in terms of steering and performance, competition have caught up and surpassed BMW. BMW underestimated how much the competition improved over the years but then it is not fair because competition had a bogey to focus on and beat. As a competitor, it is easy to sit down and not lead when all you have to do is wait for your competitor to set a benchmark and dedicate all your resources to beating that benchmark.

Yeah I agree with everything here.

I guess the things to keep in mind are:

1. The F10 M5 was developed around 2009-2011. What prevented ///M from using lighter aluminum in the doors, hood, and trunk at that time? It's not like the CTS-V and CTS V-Sport is using a Carbon Fiber Tub construction or even Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic like BMW is now using in the i-Series and in future BMW models. No, Cadillac is using lighter aluminum alloys in order to save the weight. Why could BMW and ///M do the same 2 or 3 years ago?

2. You are right, I think the biggest limiting factor in terms of performance in the CTS V-Sport and the future CTS-V will be the transmission. I will be shocked if Cadillac puts a DCT in the next generation CTS-V. I mean even the new C7 Corvette still only comes with a 7MT, imagine what it would be like if they put a DCT in that, BUT we still have to wait and see what the next generation Z06 is going to have.

3. No matter how fast they make the next generation CTS-V, GM will still never use the same quality and fit and finish materials on both the interior and exterior of their CTS-V's as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi do. I have very little doubt that the next CTS-V will be under 4,000lbs and be over 600hp, and still be about 30K less than it's german counterparts, but I would still never get one, because it won't have the refinement and it won't have the styling of it's german competitors.


Imagine if GM came out with a formula that included a light under 4000lbs chassis, DCT, AWD, and over 600hp, now that would be something to talk about, but they won't so I'm not worried.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

3. No matter how fast they make the next generation CTS-V, GM will still never use the same quality and fit and finish materials on both the interior and exterior of their CTS-V's as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi do. I have very little doubt that the next CTS-V will be under 4,000lbs and be over 600hp, and still be about 30K less than it's german counterparts, but I would still never get one, because it won't have the refinement and it won't have the styling of it's german competitors.

That would be my argument in a nutshell...

[Stash21]

Looks shocking. It doesn't matter how light or fast it is.

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Yeah I agree with everything here.

I guess the things to keep in mind are:

1. The F10 M5 was developed around 2009-2011. What prevented ///M from using lighter aluminum in the doors, hood, and trunk at that time? It's not like the CTS-V and CTS V-Sport is using a Carbon Fiber Tub construction or even Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic like BMW is now using in the i-Series and in future BMW models. No, Cadillac is using lighter aluminum alloys in order to save the weight. Why could BMW and ///M do the same 2 or 3 years ago?

2. You are right, I think the biggest limiting factor in terms of performance in the CTS V-Sport and the future CTS-V will be the transmission. I will be shocked if Cadillac puts a DCT in the next generation CTS-V. I mean even the new C7 Corvette still only comes with a 7MT, imagine what it would be like if they put a DCT in that, BUT we still have to wait and see what the next generation Z06 is going to have.

3. No matter how fast they make the next generation CTS-V, GM will still never use the same quality and fit and finish materials on both the interior and exterior of their CTS-V's as BMW, Mercedes, and Audi do. I have very little doubt that the next CTS-V will be under 4,000lbs and be over 600hp, and still be about 30K less than it's german counterparts, but I would still never get one, because it won't have the refinement and it won't have the styling of it's german competitors.


Imagine if GM came out with a formula that included a light under 4000lbs chassis, DCT, AWD, and over 600hp, now that would be something to talk about, but they won't so I'm not worried.

Originally Posted by Falcao

Thanks for posting. I was shocked to read CTS-V sport was almost 400lbs lighter than 550 in another mag (i forgot which one). Keep in mind this is not the monster CTS-V that is M5 equal. That is coming probably in 2015 and that car should destroy the M5. We are talking a car that should be 4000lb and probably more power that previous 2009+ CTS-V which is LSA V-8 556hp/551 lb·ft tq. Holy hell.. i think easily 600+hp.. but it is still a caddy and the car will never look as good as BMW outside/inside i'm sorry.. but is looks and pedigree enough to make loyal customers stick with BMW? we will see..

What do you think 2015 CTS-V figures will be?
BMW really did themselves a disservice with F10 and not getting ahead of the pack in terms of weight reduction. Imagine F10 with 4000lbs weight and how much better of a car it could have been. The good news CTS-V is still limited by the gearbox and automatics not on par with DCT. I've always said once Merc or Caddy can put a proper DCT in their cars, it is game over for BMW.

As someone who loves BMW, it makes me sad because i think in terms of steering and performance, competition have caught up and surpassed BMW. BMW underestimated how much the competition improved over the years but then it is not fair because competition had a bogey to focus on and beat. As a competitor, it is easy to sit down and not lead when all you have to do is wait for your competitor to set a benchmark and dedicate all your resources to beating that benchmark.

http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/product...n/at/at01.html

i hate to break to both of you, but the TL-80sn thats in the cts vsport is an incredibly interesting transmission. this trans, with properly aggressive shifting software (in line with what jaguar did with the zf 8hp), will make it a proper competitor to the bmw dct.

from what I've read, and from what i understand of it, this is a step up from anything GM's produced or purchased before.

really exciting times in this marketplace.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/product...n/at/at01.html

i hate to break to both of you, but the TL-80sn thats in the cts vsport is an incredibly interesting transmission. this trans, with properly aggressive shifting software (in line with what jaguar did with the zf 8hp), will make it a proper competitor to the bmw dct.

from what I've read, and from what i understand of it, this is a step up from anything GM's produced or purchased before.

really exciting times in this marketplace.

Wow, very interesting. I am now a more informed person. Thanks B-1 Pilot!

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Wow, very interesting. I am now a more informed person. Thanks B-1 Pilot!

im not b-1 pilot?

[Falcao]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

Very good info. But even if Cadillac does not come out with a Dct, who cares, as long as they have a manual transmission, which is a given. I would be willing to bet that at 4000 lbs. and 600 hp the cts-v manual will outperform the f10 M5 with a Dct.

IT does matter when talking MT vs DCT. You need way more than 600hp to beat the M5 even if you are 4000lb. No human can shift faster than a computer and DCT shifts are lightning fast. Yes if driver involvement and rowing gears is the objective then MT vs MT CTS-V murders the M5.

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/product...n/at/at01.html

i hate to break to both of you, but the TL-80sn thats in the cts vsport is an incredibly interesting transmission. this trans, with properly aggressive shifting software (in line with what jaguar did with the zf 8hp), will make it a proper competitor to the bmw dct.

from what I've read, and from what i understand of it, this is a step up from anything GM's produced or purchased before.

really exciting times in this marketplace.

wow.. if that is true and the manual tranny in CTS-V can be anywhere close to DCT then the M5 is in big trouble performance wise of course. I think the CTS-V will close the distance little bit with decent interior because the new CTS-V sport is already priced way higher than previous model so the extra cost should enable CTS-V to punch little higher with decent interior materials' leather, etc but we shall see. IF the interior is close and transmission is close enough to be negligible then M5 is in a heap of trouble. Yes loyal M5 fanboys like myself probably will still skip the CTS-V but i would be take notice on highway when CTS-V pulls up because it may be a** whooping time M5 is not going to be the one doing a** whooping by the way. Funny how times have changed. It is like alternate universe or something.

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by Falcao

IT does matter when talking MT vs DCT. You need way more than 600hp to beat the M5 even if you are 4000lb. No human can shift faster than a computer and DCT shifts are lightning fast. Yes if driver involvement and rowing gears is the objective then MT vs MT CTS-V murders the M5.







wow.. if that is true and the manual tranny in CTS-V can be anywhere close to DCT then the M5 is in big trouble performance wise of course. I think the CTS-V will close the distance little bit with decent interior because the new CTS-V sport is already priced way higher than previous model so the extra cost should enable CTS-V to punch little higher with decent interior materials' leather, etc but we shall see. IF the interior is close and transmission is close enough to be negligible then M5 is in a heap of trouble. Yes loyal M5 fanboys like myself probably will still skip the CTS-V but i would be take notice on highway when CTS-V pulls up because it may be a** whooping time M5 is not going to be the one doing a** whooping by the way. Funny how times have changed. It is like alternate universe or something.

3 things; no lift shift, launch control, and rev matching (which the f10 m5 manual has iirc) all close the gap more than we give credit. and most importantly it enables the cars to have repeatable performance.

thats, gm's current set up, id expect to see advancements if all that comes to the next cts-v.

will it be as fast as DCT or the aisin transmission? probably not.

as for the interior, thats where the cadillac loses me. cue, alone, is enough of a frustration that it makes i-drive seem simple. that being said, the materials inside the cadillac, their incredible diff from the vette, and the leaps and bounds they are making in their shock technology, all make the cadillacs progress impressive.

ironically, all of this is fantastic. but if cue doesn't get sorted out, I'm going to still not be interested in a cts-v.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by Ftc120

Very good info. But even if Cadillac does not come out with a Dct, who cares, as long as they have a manual transmission, which is a given. I would be willing to bet that at 4000 lbs. and 600 hp the cts-v manual will outperform the f10 M5 with a Dct.

I wouldn't make that bet unless you knew the skill of the person rowing the gears. A '13/'14 Shelby GT500 weighs 3,900lbs has 662hp and a manual transmission and it takes a VERY skilled driver to post better times than an F10 M5 with a DCT.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Wow, very interesting. I am now a more informed person. Thanks B-1 Pilot!

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

im not b-1 pilot?

haha...

something tells me this was due to quick scrolling or the iOS app

that tranny does look good, but I think this only supports what Dave said earlier about BMW going to a 10 gear DCT....

the tech train will only continue and no one is ever going to definitively beat the other.

[stealth.pilot]

Wouldn't surprise me of the next CTS-V is a better car.

I wouldn't buy one because the Cadillac brand lacks Prestige and that is somewhat important to me. This said, BMW is massively diluting it's brand with some of the upcoming front wheel drive products. Maybe I just need to defect to Porsche in a few years.

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot

haha...

something tells me this was due to quick scrolling or the iOS app

that tranny does look good, but I think this only supports what Dave said earlier about BMW going to a 10 gear DCT....

the tech train will only continue and no one is ever going to definitively beat the other.

I've been a lurker for a while, so I've noticed the quality of your posts. i assume he mistook and applied quality of posting due to past performance!

(ps, big fan of your epic european delivery write up)

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

Wouldn't surprise me of the next CTS-V is a better car.

I wouldn't buy one because the Cadillac brand lacks Prestige and that is somewhat important to me. This said, BMW is massively diluting it's brand with some of the upcoming front wheel drive products. Maybe I just need to defect to Porsche in a few years.

i don't think its the front wheel drive products that are gonna hurt bmw, i think its the lack of bespoke individuality that will ultimately be its demise. GM prices the CTS below its competition because it recognizes platform sharing and its limitations. BMW does it and they charge more (look at the m6gc for example)

either way, cadillacs hurdles and its advantages will both be the same thing, the GM performance parts bin.

[greentrbo95gst]

I drove the outgoing CTS-V and I had a lot of fun in it. Lookswise I like the older one a lot better then the brand new one. I am pretty sure Cadillac had enough time to sit back and watch Audi, Mercedes and BMW go at their throats and now they will pull the ace out of the sleeve. Stay tuned