My Straightpiped F10 M5 Experience on Virginia International Raceway

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It would only have "spun him out" if the DSC light was flashing like crazy when he did that manouvre... No flashing DSC light, no loss of stability or traction. And there also is something called throttle control

Yup exactly! Throttle control is something that has to be mastered on the F10 M5 and M6, it's not easy at all in these cars, and this is one thing I really wanted to get practice on. I remember learning so much at M School in MDM mode. Oh well maybe my next track event will be better.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Eeehhhh...???

How much track time do you have ?

[turbo8765]

I hate forum based driving clinics… but if you watch the vid you'll see what gmd is referring to.

For example… watch the turn in for turn 14 at around 1:18 sec (just one example, there are many). It's very abrupt. While I wasn't in the car, I doubt the instructor said "turn in more suddenly and abruptly for 14". And if he did, the response should've been a polite refusal… for an experienced driver. Abrupt steering inputs plus nearly 600 rw-trq on street tires is VERY difficult to manage, even for an experienced driver with excellent car control skills.

There's a clear distinction between experimenting with different lines and steering inputs that are too sudden or of too great magnitude. This wasn't just through oak tree, it's a fairly regular pattern throughout the vid.

[gmd2003]

1.) he was going fairly slow
2.) DSC was fully on
3.) when people with 20,000 plus track miles make helpful observations , it's not to degrade , it's being helpful . We don't want to see people end up with a crashed car like this . A green student with 16 days experience at other tracks , first time at Roebling , he just bought this E36 M3 race car on slicks and got moved up a run group bc "he was so fast " . This was the result . Really fast new car + unfamiliar track + inexperience = bad day

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Why the need to post derogatory comments on his driving without bothering to ask if there was a reason why he did what he did?

I have posted no derogatory comments. I suppose I'm more accustomed to other forums where the goal is to improve your driving via the collective experience.

Great job, keep up the good work, hopefully they'll let you run solo advanced next time out.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by turbo8765

I have posted no derogatory comments. I suppose I'm more accustomed to other forums where the goal is to improve your driving via the collective experience.

Great job, keep up the good work, hopefully they'll let you run solo advanced next time out.

+ 1000
Keep improving, be safe and have fun . Keep your ego out of it when exp people give valuable advice and you will do great .

[gmd2003]

I still fully stand behinds my statement that the lack of smooth inputs, and being his first time on VIR is why the instructor limited his speed . Which was both prudent and totally reasonable . I did not call him an "erratic driver " at any point . His steering inputs were sudden , and at adv group speed WOULD result in badness . For someone with only a dozen track days the OP is doing great . What he doesn't need is people encouraging him to go balls out DSC off in a 4300 pound car with 600 hp on a challenging track the first time he goes solo there . No one with his level of experience is ready for that .

[boots]

Dave you did a great job and thanks for posting. I don't think your post needs to be dissected when you had good intentions.

[boots]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

1.) he was going fairly slow
2.) DSC was fully on
3.) when people with 20,000 plus track miles make helpful observations , it's not to degrade , it's being helpful . We don't want to see people end up with a crashed car like this . A green student with 16 days experience at other tracks , first time at Roebling , he just bought this E36 M3 race car on slicks and got moved up a run group bc "he was so fast " . This was the result . Really fast new car + unfamiliar track + inexperience = bad day

Good point

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Since you fully stand by your statements. Do you still stand by your assurance to me that the steering wheel inputs I pointed out wasn't part of the instruction programme then?

ABSOLUTELY !!!

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The definition of erratic seems to perfectly describe how you described his driving:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/erratic

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/erratic

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/erratic

Sure, the word erratic wasn't used by you. But if someone said that a persons behaviour deviated from the usual, then it wouldn't be wrong if someone else said that the person was behaving erratic, would it?

If the purpose was to help and give constructive criticism, then people are generally more accepting of that input if it's given in a positive and constructive manner.

Since you fully stand by your statements. Do you still stand by your assurance to me that the steering wheel inputs I pointed out wasn't part of the instruction programme then?

Given your lack of experience and knowledge of car control on track , you will never understand what I am saying apparently . He was driving well for his level of experience , sudden steering inputs are a common novice /intermediate mistake. If he were driving erratically he would have been pulled of the track . For the record I am dissecting Boss's comments not the op's post . The only issue I had with the OP's post is his irritation with the instructor who was just trying to keep himself and the OP safe .

[boots]

Gmd2003 I wasn't making reference to you. I agree w you.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Again you go ahead and assume things (like my lack of experience and knowledge of car control on track - I said I'm not a race driver, not that I haven't driven on a track at all... I also know people who have a lot of track experience, they still get beaten by more inexperienced drivers. Or like my son who does Motocross, at a gokart track in Sweden he beat the time of one of the employees who had driven that track for many years. He did that after around 5 laps... So just because someone has many years experience of tracking doesn't automatically make them professional drivers...).

You assumed that the OP was doing the steering wheel inputs purely because he was a inexperienced driver on a track. I also questioned his steering wheel inputs, but left room for the OP to explain whether it perhaps was due to instructions. You ridiculed my question on this (With a LOL as well ). However, the OP later confirmed my view as being correct...

But, as long as the OP took your comments the way you intended (to help him improve) then that is all that matters

Ok I've tried to be patient and nice , but that hasn't worked. I don't have to assume your lack of knowledge you prove it with every post . Yes I am certain the instructor did not have a novice student unsettle his car with a bad line entering multiple turns then over steer it to get back on line . Just bc an instructor tells a novice to do something doesn't mean they do it right everytime !! There is no place or purpose for sudden steering inputs period . No instructor would want his student to learn to do that . The only time as an instructor you tell a student to do this is when you are evaluating them on a sign off ride to see how they can recover from a slide . The slow down and DSC full on commands from the instructor proves , this was not the case . Again the OP did great for his first DE in the F10 on a challenging track like VIR . And after a few more events he will move up to the intermediate group . It does him no favors to say oh yeah you should be in the advanced solo group , just because of the capability of his car . As an instructor you have to answer one simple question before letting someone go solo . Would I want him beside me entering a turn ? It's not an opinion it's a fact that at VIR in the video provided the OP isn't ready for that . That's ok , and expected , and is not derogatory . I certainly didn't want people blowing smoke up my ass when I was in his position .
RPI M5 keep up the good work and you will be solo there soon . Just remember smooth is fast with steering , braking , and throttle inputs . I look forward to seeing you at VIR in the spring , you have a fantastic car and I salute you for driving it like it was intended to be. !

[B-1Pilot]

Ugh please make it stop...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot

Ugh please make it stop...

Yes, agreed, it's sometimes to easy to get involved in on the net... (Referring to myself...)

[B-1Pilot]

Dave, you need this shirt:

http://blipshift.com/products/thats-no-pipe

[boots]

He and I both need one of those. That's a good one pilot!

[SANguru]

+1.. double apexing on that line could be really dangerous..and stupid...

Originally Posted by gmd2003

Weird he was telling you to make those steering inputs on the line you were taking esp on oak tree . If you had been DSC off that would have spun you out . As you know you can't get away with jerky movements in a high HP 4300 pound car in a tight corner . Sorry it appears you had some bad teaching . Smooth is fast ! Kudos to actually tracking the big girl , and she sounded fantastic .

[e92doc]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Yup exactly! Throttle control is something that has to be mastered on the F10 M5 and M6, it's not easy at all in these cars, and this is one thing I really wanted to get practice on. I remember learning so much at M School in MDM mode. Oh well maybe my next track event will be better.

I must say your car is awesome with the pipes!! Also I gotta give you credit for doing a HPDE in 30 degree whether!! I don't have the balls to do that let alone in the m5 (the wife's is currently hibernating in the garage full time). Not to beat a dead horse but the most cca chapters are going to focus on safety first and speed later- you may like Hooked on Driving events- check it out

[chong0]

dave,

the car sounds awesome. Even with stock exhaust, WOT sounds good and can't imagine what that sounded like live with WOT. When i was at Watkins Glen, Barreling down the straights at WOT is something that is indescribable in the M5.

I think it's a huge downer that based on the tone of your post you did not feel truly challenged and didn't get to experience the M5 the way you were intending. Certainly running in DSC mode is a huge disappointment. At least in M school you can run in MDM (I assume advanced M school lets you run the same). Maybe it's just bad luck you got an overly cautious instructor?

Perhaps it was the number of attendees that gave it a strange feel. The CCA events I have attended everyone has been awesome, and there was a feeling of comraderie rather than surprise that I have seen.