bootmod3 Stage 2 93 octane OTS map - dyno - 663whp / 666wtq

[apexlocator]

Originally Posted by ARC550

It's at 24psi with taper down to 23 with upgraded Map sensors. Impressive still but yea.

When are you going to get that 9 sec run? I've been waiting...lol; you are so close.

[ARC550]

Originally Posted by apexlocator

When are you going to get that 9 sec run? I've been waiting...lol; you are so close.

Ahhahahahahahaha my Man! This spring summer I will actually do weight reduction on car and remove rear seats, passenger seats, interior trunk gut and won't have my room set in trunk along with a 5 gallon Jug of race gas lol. I could have shaved another 200lbs easily lol
But yea stock Turbo 9.xx run will come soon

[ARC550]

Originally Posted by apexlocator

Here are a couple of my graphs. I did not know to ask about the HPFP a few months ago; only log I see on the graphs are AFR. But I will try to ask my tuner Mission Performance about the fuel pump and what they logged. The dyno tune was for 91 pump though.

Stock turbos, stock downpipes, 3 gallons E85 + 91.

How much psi? Stock map sensors ?

[apexlocator]

Originally Posted by ARC550

How much psi? Stock map sensors ?

22psi...yes I'm still on stock MAP sensors for now.

[ARC550]

Originally Posted by apexlocator

22psi...yes I'm still on stock MAP sensors for now.

That's impressive and what gas?!!! Holy shit!
Any 60-130 runs?

[edysinger]

Originally Posted by proTUNING Freaks

Thought we'd share a dyno from a recent tune on a customer car in Florida done through our dealer Miami Performance Inc.

Car: M6
Mods: Downpipes, bootmod3 OTS Stage 2 93 octane map
Octane: pump 93 octane (98RON)

Boost on this run hit 24psi down low in one spot but levelled off to 23psi by ~5800rpm, 21psi at 6600rpm and 19.5psi at redline.

One item to point out, at this power level blending in ethanol is not a good idea as you can see in the bm3 log posted below that the HPFP (high pressure fuel pump) is falling under target to 1600psi from the targeted 2900psi. If you've ever dealt with misfires on your S63tu when pushing power, and not using meth or secondary PI injection to supplement and help the fuel system, then we suggest dataloging and paying attention to your HPFP pressure. Midrange power/torque we feel is already maxed out due to where the HPFP is sitting unless we lean it out a bit to 5500rpm and to go higher in that area you'll need meth which is easiest to install or a PI kit that we don't think exists for the S63tu today yet.

This is the current state of our OTS Stage 2 93 octane map. We're looking to get a bit more dyno runs in as its very likely there's a few more reliable ponies in there at 6k rpm. Let us know if any questions at all.

I would be skeptical at this point it is a HPFP limitation problem without investigating more. If you look at the graph, you will see prior to the fuel pressure dropping off, you were at 100% pedal but your throttle position dropped off for awhile prior to the fuel pressure dropping off. This would indicate to me to investigate a calibration limitation that tried to recover by initially reducing the throttle, then finally dropped fuel pressure. The limitation eventually recovered and the ECU ramped fuel back in during the run.

[proTUNING Freaks]

Originally Posted by edysinger

I would be skeptical at this point it is a HPFP limitation problem without investigating more. If you look at the graph, you will see prior to the fuel pressure dropping off, you were at 100% pedal but your throttle position dropped off for awhile prior to the fuel pressure dropping off. This would indicate to me to investigate a calibration limitation that tried to recover by initially reducing the throttle, then finally dropped fuel pressure. The limitation eventually recovered and the ECU ramped fuel back in during the run.

Hey at least someone is making use of the logs! But unfortunately it isn't throttle related. Throttle itself is simply part of boost control. It has no effect on the fuel system or fuel pressure. We'll have some fun with it again soon and let you guys know how well it turns out

[Lerxst M4]

Originally Posted by 13M5F10

This is an M6 in Houston with downpipes only with DME tune. No stack, no meth, a is on pump gas.

I also know a few others on the same tune and mods pushing the same numbers.

EDIT*** ignore this post*** you said power band and not power. Misunderstood. Lol

Do I know this guy?

[13M5F10]

Originally Posted by Lerxst M6

Do I know this guy?

I don't think so, he's a friend of Teds. Hooked him up with DME a few months back after I ran their FBO GTR. He fell in love and got tuned. Hit him up, nice guy.

@kauvsti is his IG

[TheHouseWon]

Sub.d

[edysinger]

Originally Posted by proTUNING Freaks

Hey at least someone is making use of the logs! But unfortunately it isn't throttle related. Throttle itself is simply part of boost control. It has no effect on the fuel system or fuel pressure. We'll have some fun with it again soon and let you guys know how well it turns out

Thanks but that was not my point. The ECU uses throttle, fuel, timing, and boost to protect the engine. My point is you either may have exceeded a temperature limit or torque limit causing the ECU to pull throttle and then fuel. To say it is a limitation of the HPFP does not appear plausible as the HPFP recovers during the pull. If it was a HPFP limitation, I would expect the HPFP to drop for the rest of the run as fuel consumption would be the same if not still increasing from the point it dropped out.

[M5ER]

I've seen this same thing happen on N55 and N54 back when I had them. This is a classic issue for direct injection motors. Appreciate to finally see a tuner share data on this stuff and not just dyno numbers. Kudos!

[MrPowell]

Originally Posted by edysinger

Thanks but that was not my point. The ECU uses throttle, fuel, timing, and boost to protect the engine. My point is you either may have exceeded a temperature limit or torque limit causing the ECU to pull throttle and then fuel. To say it is a limitation of the HPFP does not appear plausible as the HPFP recovers during the pull. If it was a HPFP limitation, I would expect the HPFP to drop for the rest of the run as fuel consumption would be the same if not still increasing from the point it dropped out.

This would be true if the car had not started to drop in boost and taper off on power. All the stock turbo cars I've see all lose power in the high rpms, my guess would be the small hot side they come equipped with. The car sees its biggest power (on this dyno) right about where torque and hp intersect (5250-5400 rpm area). So it would make sense as power goes down that fuel usage would be less. Would be the same on a standard injector style car if we were looking at idc (peg 100% at peak power and lower as power started to falling).

[ARC550]

Originally Posted by edysinger

Thanks but that was not my point. The ECU uses throttle, fuel, timing, and boost to protect the engine. My point is you either may have exceeded a temperature limit or torque limit causing the ECU to pull throttle and then fuel. To say it is a limitation of the HPFP does not appear plausible as the HPFP recovers during the pull. If it was a HPFP limitation, I would expect the HPFP to drop for the rest of the run as fuel consumption would be the same if not still increasing from the point it dropped out.

I concur.

[MrPowell]

Eventually I'll get back on the dyno and log HPFP on a pull with the stack which I know I've made 681rwhp (on a 4th gear pull, so 700+ if I used 5th). Going to be awhile because we have lots of stuff with the Porsches going on, currently have an engine on a cart on the dyno lol.

[ur20v]

Originally Posted by ARC550

I concur.

I agree too, peak torque is where peak fuel matchs.

Power doesn't have to taper off on a turbo car if the turbos are big enough and more eficient but our S63tu's use small turbos and we push them well past their best - 'normal' customers want all the torque at 1800rpm while us used to tuned and power seeking tend to want a torque curve that keeps climbing to the red line or just shy.

I would like to see some much bigger turbos and loose some low down torque for top end gains personally. With out 4 wheel drive our cars can't cope with the torque through lack of traction anywhy

[proTUNING Freaks]

Originally Posted by M5ER

I've seen this same thing happen on N55 and N54 back when I had them. This is a classic issue for direct injection motors. Appreciate to finally see a tuner share data on this stuff and not just dyno numbers. Kudos!

Originally Posted by MrPowell

This would be true if the car had not started to drop in boost and taper off on power. All the stock turbo cars I've see all lose power in the high rpms, my guess would be the small hot side they come equipped with. The car sees its biggest power (on this dyno) right about where torque and hp intersect (5250-5400 rpm area). So it would make sense as power goes down that fuel usage would be less. Would be the same on a standard injector style car if we were looking at idc (peg 100% at peak power and lower as power started to falling).

Originally Posted by edysinger

Thanks but that was not my point. The ECU uses throttle, fuel, timing, and boost to protect the engine. My point is you either may have exceeded a temperature limit or torque limit causing the ECU to pull throttle and then fuel. To say it is a limitation of the HPFP does not appear plausible as the HPFP recovers during the pull. If it was a HPFP limitation, I would expect the HPFP to drop for the rest of the run as fuel consumption would be the same if not still increasing from the point it dropped out.

The DME does use all those systems in various protection scenarios. However, since you mentioned throttle might have a relationship to fuel pressure, take a closer look here:



Throttle starts to close at 2800rpm while the HPFP is still on target for another 1000rpm. HPFP only begins to drop at 3900rpm which if you compare to the dyno graph is on its way and getting close to peak torque. HPFP pressure bottoms out at 5k which given the dyno graph is the point where torque is highest for a given RPM and there's most fuel demand from the HPFP. The DME has throttle wide open already though 800rpm before that, at 4400, where was the DME to protect it with throttle if throttle was part of that protection strategy?

Throttle isn't part of the fuel pressure protection strategy as throttle would've been closed throughout the HPFP drop, it would not open as it was dropping if that were the case. Throttle is a boost control component.

HPFP starts to climb back up past about 5300rpm as torque starts to drop off eventually managing to keep up with fuel demand as we're unable to keep torque flat to redline at this torque level on these turbos. At the same time boost is dropping off towards redline so some of that torque could potentially be lifted towards redline as well but I suspect we'd just see the HPFP not recover longer than here, or go further south.

Question I'll leave you with, why are people adding meth when pushing power on this motor, especially in midrange, if we might have considerably more room to go in the OEM fuel system? How many dynos on straight race gas without supplementing with meth have you seen where someone pushed far higher than say 700wtq in midrange with stock or upgraded turbos? If you know of anyone I'd love to see some datalogs with dyno graphs. There's considerable midrange power/torque left on the table even on stock turbos with appropriate octane.

We're on the same team here, just trying to get the most power out of these beasts so the more factual data is posted the better the discussion. Cheers

[ur20v]

... its the rush for the red line the S63tu lacks and this takes some 'soul' out of it, again my aim will be removing the decline in the power curve past 5k rpm by moving the torque 'curve' (its almost a staight line from 1800rpm!) north so you get a building rush that doesn't leave you wondering why you didn't change gear earlier and helps traction

P.S this sort of tuning will help clutch, DTC, axle and drive shaft life.

[M5ER]

You do that and then the next guy with torque gets the jump and its hard to catch up after. Been there done that. When racing you want power EVERYWHERE ha!

[ur20v]

... you want usuable and reliable power... no good sitting there in a cloud of smoke from your tyres or worse because a rod has let loose...

[M5ER]

Then you need better tires.

[Halim@HCP]

Originally Posted by edysinger

Thanks but that was not my point. The ECU uses throttle, fuel, timing, and boost to protect the engine. My point is you either may have exceeded a temperature limit or torque limit causing the ECU to pull throttle and then fuel. To say it is a limitation of the HPFP does not appear plausible as the HPFP recovers during the pull. If it was a HPFP limitation, I would expect the HPFP to drop for the rest of the run as fuel consumption would be the same if not still increasing from the point it dropped out.

It is RPM based..