Help me understand proper tune vs. Piggyback

BPMSport · 04-15-2016, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

A simple look on any of the AFR,Timing,Load table will show that these tables have been changed

Technicians aren't able to see this information. Most techs follow test plans and click 'next'. Only a further investigation by BMW would be able to detect the presence of a tune/piggyback, barring obvious signs.

mike@x-ph.com · 04-15-2016, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Technicians aren't able to see this information. Most techs follow test plans and click 'next'. Only a further investigation by BMW would be able to detect the presence of a tune/piggyback, barring obvious signs.

Agree 100%

13M5F10 · 04-15-2016, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13M5F10

This is what I was told by several foremen and an engineer.

Technicians do not have the tools to detect changes to the DME nor is it part of their scope to do so during routine warranty and maintenance claims. However, there may be a requirement to send the readings to an engineer that will check for changes to the tables if it's a major claim. They do have the ability to detect changes to be tables.
Reverting the parameters back to stock tables would would avoid this.

We've been through this already at BMW between a tuned car and a BMS piggy back. The tuned car didn't show any traces of tampering or changes with their tools they have in house. The piggy due to forced changes caused errors that were saved to the DME. A trained tech can tell through those errors that something was forcing changes within the DME causing those issues. Most guys don't really care to be honest to even dig into it.

I could be wrong with my theory but this is what was explained to me and what we found during our testing with a few friends at BMW.

I've known two friends who were fully modified and had their engines fail due to mechanical failure. Despite all the bolt-ons and flash tune, the crate engine and labor was covered under warranty.

My answer was to a hypothetical question " Can they detect if you did not flash back to stock"

the answer is yes they can detect it easily. If you go back to stock, it will still be detectable but will need more work.
Keep in mind that the ECU will register every time something has been written or edited

Will they go to that extent? No but that was not the question

As for the piggy vs flash argument, as you have mentioned it has been done to death. The way i see it, piggy will be much harder to detect because ECU thinks it is running stock boost, some agree other don't.

At the end of the day, it does not matter because out of thousands of tuned cars no BMW dealership went to that extent. Flash or piggy, go back to stock before your dealership visit and you are safe

Agreed! Thanks Mike!

13M5F10 · 04-15-2016, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpirestate

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13M5F10

This is what I was told by several foremen and an engineer.

Technicians do not have the tools to detect changes to the DME nor is it part of their scope to do so during routine warranty and maintenance claims. However, there may be a requirement to send the readings to an engineer that will check for changes to the tables if it's a major claim. They do have the ability to detect changes to be tables.
Reverting the parameters back to stock tables would would avoid this.

We've been through this already at BMW between a tuned car and a BMS piggy back. The tuned car didn't show any traces of tampering or changes with their tools they have in house. The piggy due to forced changes caused errors that were saved to the DME. A trained tech can tell through those errors that something was forcing changes within the DME causing those issues. Most guys don't really care to be honest to even dig into it.

I could be wrong with my theory but this is what was explained to me and what we found during our testing with a few friends at BMW.

I've known two friends who were fully modified and had their engines fail due to mechanical failure. Despite all the bolt-ons and flash tune, the crate engine and labor was covered under warranty.

Very good info. thanks bud
BTW I am in LOVE with your exhaust set up.

Thanks bro! I fall in love with my car every time I drive it. It sounds amazing

Phatcat · 04-15-2016, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Agree 100%

Yep, that's what my understanding is too. If BMW/dealer really wants to know, they can find out, but usually they don't really care.

When I take my X5M with Velo tune to my dealer, I told them straight I have a tune, they just said they won't plug the car with computer so Germany won't find out (apparently the data will be send to German for record purpose).

And to be honest, unless you are making a major claim against BMW (in which they might go over the data), otherwise for routine maintenance, even if the data was sent to BMW, I doubt they will find out either.

Lalit@autocouture · 04-15-2016, 09:17 AM

So much misinformation here.

For those trying to stack the JB4 on a flash... You're not going anywhere without upgraded clutches, unless your flash really sucks

erm324 · 04-15-2016, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalit@autocouture

So much misinformation here.

For those trying to stack the JB4 on a flash... You're not going anywhere without upgraded clutches, unless your flash really sucks

+100000

MCarsFan · 04-28-2016, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

Because of the drilled holes in the ECU's?

Not to beat a horse but you cannot see that my DMEs have ever been opened.

combatbmw · 04-28-2016, 07:56 PM

Hey dude drive up to Los Angeles and you can drive my car and see for yourself what a tuned bpm car feels like.

Edmguy11 · 04-28-2016, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalit@autocouture

So much misinformation here.

For those trying to stack the JB4 on a flash... You're not going anywhere without upgraded clutches, unless your flash really sucks

What if you are one of the rare with the manual transmission. I Thought our clutches are good up to 800 whp...

13M5F10 · 04-28-2016, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalit@autocouture

So much misinformation here.

For those trying to stack the JB4 on a flash... You're not going anywhere without upgraded clutches, unless your flash really sucks

Even on a backend flash? Or is stacking and back end two different setups. I was under the impressive that once you get close to 700w is when you need to upgrade the clutches.

13M5F10 · 04-28-2016, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmguy11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalit@autocouture

So much misinformation here.

For those trying to stack the JB4 on a flash... You're not going anywhere without upgraded clutches, unless your flash really sucks

What if you are one of the rare with the manual transmission. I Thought our clutches are good up to 800 whp...

@F10M5Manual can confirm. He has a manual pushing over 800. I believe it's 800w for manual and 700 dct

erm324 · 04-28-2016, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13M5F10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalit@autocouture

So much misinformation here.

For those trying to stack the JB4 on a flash... You're not going anywhere without upgraded clutches, unless your flash really sucks

Even on a backend flash? Or is stacking and back end two different setups. I was under the impressive that once you get close to 700w is when you need to upgrade the clutches.

Regardless of the tune (flash or piggyback), anything over 22lbs will eventually slip the DCT. Keeping it above 4-4.5krpm at WOT will prolong the life of the clutches as the car is out of peak torque range, but to push it further clutches should be first on the list. You can pretty much extract all the power that the stock DCT can handle with a tune only.

TheHouseWon · 04-28-2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatbmw

Hey dude drive up to Los Angeles and you can drive my car and see for yourself what a tuned bpm car feels like.

Thanks! I might just take you up on that offer.

Pm'd

wakeofdeath · 05-03-2016, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHouseWon

Thanks! I might just take you up on that offer.

Pm'd

There's a few bunch of cars in Cali tuned differently, definitely worth the review.

Leec33 · 05-16-2016, 03:21 PM

say im looking for a pretty mild setup...

Downpipes and tune to start. say im going to be sticking with that setup for 1 year, my question is which will provide the most reliable and repeatable power

Price is not the issue, just lookin for the right path.

Trust me i will eventually go the pure turbos route, when i would probably stack jb4 bcm and a flash tune. But, is the better idea to start with the jb4 + bcm and downpipes or go straight to the flash BPM wonder tune with downpipes?

BPMSport · 05-16-2016, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leec33

say im looking for a pretty mild setup...

Downpipes and tune to start. say im going to be sticking with that setup for 1 year, my question is which will provide the most reliable and repeatable power

Price is not the issue, just lookin for the right path.

Trust me i will eventually go the pure turbos route, when i would probably stack jb4 bcm and a flash tune. But, is the better idea to start with the jb4 + bcm and downpipes or go straight to the flash BPM wonder tune with downpipes?

Better to do tune and downpipes first, then add the jb4 to boost more/fine tune for meth, etc.

04-15-2016, 09:17 AM	#28
Lalit@autocouture 374 Rep 1,374 Posts Drives: Tributo, Superfast, M5cs Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: 201 iTrader: (2)	So much misinformation here. For those trying to stack the JB4 on a flash... You're not going anywhere without upgraded clutches, unless your flash really sucks
	Appreciate 0 Quote

04-28-2016, 07:56 PM	#31
combatbmw Major 206 Rep 1,250 Posts Drives: 20' X3M CP Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: SoCal iTrader: (2) Garage List 2017 GMC Sierra All ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 [8.75]	Hey dude drive up to Los Angeles and you can drive my car and see for yourself what a tuned bpm car feels like.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

05-16-2016, 03:21 PM	#38
Leec33 New Member 3 Rep 24 Posts Drives: 2014 M6 Coupe Comp Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	say im looking for a pretty mild setup... Downpipes and tune to start. say im going to be sticking with that setup for 1 year, my question is which will provide the most reliable and repeatable power Price is not the issue, just lookin for the right path. Trust me i will eventually go the pure turbos route, when i would probably stack jb4 bcm and a flash tune. But, is the better idea to start with the jb4 + bcm and downpipes or go straight to the flash BPM wonder tune with downpipes?
	Appreciate 0 Quote