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      10-24-2013, 11:16 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by N & M View Post
I hate to say it but AMG and BMW M have swapped mantras. The BMW was always about steering control and grip at the limit and actual real life speed and the AMG was the tail wagging comfort oriented luxury barge.

It looks like they have switched roles. Yes, the AMG cheats with AWD and yes it takes the easy and obvious route to getting the numbers but it has come along way in the handling department and that is a fact.

I love BMW, but I fear that they have become obsessed with chasing numbers and pleasing customers to the point of losing their edge and credibility.

Before any zealots come attacking, please note that I am on my 6th M car.
THIS.

BMW has always been amazing at developing an amazing chassis and tuning suspension/steering so precisely that even if they were down on power to the competition they'd still be the obvious choice. Not just merc, but apparently Lexus has started swapping places with BM at least in the case of the new GS and new IS. both are great chassis, with good steering, and good suspension tuning compared to their respective BMW counterparts. their Drivetrains end up holding them back. Even caddy's ATS is claimed to have a better chassis than a 3 series.... that should never ever happen... a cadillac with a superior chassis to it's class rival bmw??

I've driven a few of the current gen bmws... and it's an unfortunate problem that hopefully only lasts this generation. I don't get a "special" feeling driving the current lineup (haven't driven Z4), as if it is something different from the competition. It could also be because the competition is just that much better now.
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      10-24-2013, 11:32 AM   #68
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Did they just said they didn't like the M5 because it's too 'flat' around the corners? That it doesn't have body roll?

And they like the E63 for its artificial light steering?

What the hell are they smoking?
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      10-24-2013, 11:33 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by 1BMW335 View Post
lol, love how fan boys try so hard to find a win to make themselves feel better. I'm sure these Russian street racers are credible sources of auto journalism. Love how you even threw in the non-CP M5 comment too.

The AMG is 140lbs heavier because of AWD. In the motortrend test, the car's weren't equal. The M5 had carbon ceramic brakes compared to the standard ones on the E63, yet they both stopped at 106 ft. Standard brakes on a car that is 140lbs heavier are better than BMW's 9k optional carbon's? The E63 also didn't have the $1700 5 spoke light forged wheel option. The carbon ceramic brakes saves over 22 pounds and the lighter wheels would reduce rotational mass. 3.6s is AMG's estimated 0-60 speed, but european reviews (non-english with subtitles) had it clocked at 3.2 seconds.

All objective testing will differ due to track condition, weather, wind, temp, etc. That is why test numbers differ from one to another. Accept the fact that both are great cars and the average person will be impressed that you can afford to drive either one. I don't understand the bashing of a well engineered AMG when they clearly stepped up to the plate. We wouldn't have seen the competition package had AMG not released the S version. It is BMW's response so that it wouldn't fall behind its competition.

I'll dig up Chris Harris' review of the E63. He's a journalist that even BMW drivers think knows how to drive.
Russian streets are probably more credible than Motor Trend. Auto journalism? This guys liked the M6 GC so much better than an M5 when we all know that M6 GC is setup to be more comfortable than an M6/M5. Maybe he prefers more comfortable cars, picking MB over BMW would make sense then. He's even said it before that he doesn't like modern BMW's, he is biased to begin with.

I have no problem switching to another brand if they truly have a better car.
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      10-24-2013, 11:35 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
Did they just said they didn't like the M5 because it's too 'flat' around the corners? That it doesn't have body roll?

And they like the E63 for its artificial light steering?

What the hell are they smoking?
Yep. Must be the good stuff.
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      10-24-2013, 11:41 AM   #71
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Car & Driver also picked the E63 (along with the S6) over the M5 and had very similar conclusions on the two cars as well.
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      10-24-2013, 12:12 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BMW335 View Post
lol, love how fan boys try so hard to find a win to make themselves feel better. I'm sure these Russian street racers are credible sources of auto journalism. Love how you even threw in the non-CP M5 comment too.

The AMG is 140lbs heavier because of AWD. In the motortrend test, the car's weren't equal. The M5 had carbon ceramic brakes compared to the standard ones on the E63, yet they both stopped at 106 ft. Standard brakes on a car that is 140lbs heavier are better than BMW's 9k optional carbon's? The E63 also didn't have the $1700 5 spoke light forged wheel option. The carbon ceramic brakes saves over 22 pounds and the lighter wheels would reduce rotational mass. 3.6s is AMG's estimated 0-60 speed, but european reviews (non-english with subtitles) had it clocked at 3.2 seconds.

All objective testing will differ due to track condition, weather, wind, temp, etc. That is why test numbers differ from one to another. Accept the fact that both are great cars and the average person will be impressed that you can afford to drive either one. I don't understand the bashing of a well engineered AMG when they clearly stepped up to the plate. We wouldn't have seen the competition package had AMG not released the S version. It is BMW's response so that it wouldn't fall behind its competition.

I'll dig up Chris Harris' review of the E63. He's a journalist that even BMW drivers think knows how to drive.
Guilty as charged. BMW Fan Boy here and M5 Fan Boy here. Lol!

The E63 is impressive. I would never buy one though. I don't like the styling, and the ergonomics don't appeal well to me. A regular automatic gearbox kills it for me too, just like with the RS7. I love being able to shift with either my hand on the shifter knob or the wheels paddles on the ///M-DCT and the way the DCT shifts are seemless smooth when you want it to be and rock hard in S3, and lighting quick. It feels so much more racecar to me in that context. Plus it still confuses me, as I think someone else already mentioned, how the new CLA45 AMG has a DCT and the new 2014 E63 AMG-S still has a regular automatic. Now I'm starting to wonder if the next generation Caddillac CTS-V will still have an Auto Tranny again also.

The exhaust note on the E63 kills it for me too. I've never liked that deep throaty roar of the AMG cars. Sounds like a Euro version of a 5.0L Mustang V8. The straightpipes on my F10 make this exotic note on par with a Ferrari and well the V10 of the previous generation M5 almost has no equal.

All in all, I think AMG has absolutely stepped up its game, but the benchmark still is and always will be the M5.

Chris Harris provides an honest review here, just skip to about the middle of the video.

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      10-24-2013, 12:21 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
Did they just said they didn't like the M5 because it's too 'flat' around the corners? That it doesn't have body roll?

And they like the E63 for its artificial light steering?

What the hell are they smoking?
First post in here that makes sense... When they said they preferred the AMG for having more body-roll was when i stopped taking the review seriously. When has body roll ever been better?

I do understand the steering comment because they gave me the impression that they didn't like how the M5 steering was heavy but not communicative. They said the AMG was more precise in it's inputs.
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      10-24-2013, 12:23 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND View Post
Carlos lago would have been better. Lieberman tries too hard...
LOL! I always think that too!
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      10-24-2013, 12:28 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by 24601 View Post
LOL! I always think that too!
How much do we have to pay Carlos Lago to do a redo of this review? Lol!
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      10-24-2013, 12:31 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92LNGCGY View Post
Is it just me or does every review of the M5 say it needs to lose some weight? But at the same time the competition (E63 & RS7) weigh about the same but yet they are not being critized as much as the M5.
They criticize BMW because back then BMW used to be the lightest one in the competition and was deff the better drivers car with sharp handling, quick and responsive steering. now BMWs are getting fat and the cars are not that communicative with the drivers thats why people critisize that much
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      10-24-2013, 12:32 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by E90 Skye View Post

I've driven a few of the current gen bmws... and it's an unfortunate problem that hopefully only lasts this generation. I don't get a "special" feeling driving the current lineup, as if it is something different from the competition. It could also be because the competition is just that much better now.
THANK YOU! This is what I have been saying for so long!!! When I say this people take it as an attack on them.
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      10-24-2013, 12:36 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
How much do we have to pay Carlos Lago to do a redo of this review? Lol!
I'm just happy Lago did the one off review of the M5 Competition. Always great automotive journalism! Accurate, informative and entertaining. Cheers to Carlos.
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      10-24-2013, 12:40 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mperial View Post
...Johnny Liebermann needs liposuction not the lighter M5. I've always been suspicious of Johnny's credentials...
+1 Spot on!
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      10-24-2013, 12:46 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24601 View Post


+1 Spot on!
And I'm Javert . . .
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      10-24-2013, 12:47 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoTTaLoVeBiMMeR View Post
They criticize BMW because back then BMW used to be the lightest one in the competition and was deff the better drivers car with sharp handling, quick and responsive steering. now BMWs are getting fat and the cars are not that communicative with the drivers thats why people critisize that much
While that is true, times have changed and so has all the cars in this segment. None of the cars in this segment today drive like the old M5's everybody praises. They're all overweight and are more luxury than sport. In these comparisons, these journalists are just picking what they prefer and provide their opinion even if they are absurd.

Furthermore, the E60 M5 didn't win all comparisons and even came third behind the RS6 and E63, guess what? The consensus is that while the RS6 and E63 might be the "winner", some journalists would prefer the M5.
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      10-24-2013, 12:50 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Guilty as charged. BMW Fan Boy here and M5 Fan Boy here. Lol!

The E63 is impressive. I would never buy one though. I don't like the styling, and the ergonomics don't appeal well to me. A regular automatic gearbox kills it for me too, just like with the RS7. I love being able to shift with either my hand on the shifter knob or the wheels paddles on the ///M-DCT and the way the DCT shifts are seemless smooth when you want it to be and rock hard in S3, and lighting quick. It feels so much more racecar to me in that context. Plus it still confuses me, as I think someone else already mentioned, how the new CLA45 AMG has a DCT and the new 2014 E63 AMG-S still has a regular automatic. Now I'm starting to wonder if the next generation Caddillac CTS-V will still have an Auto Tranny again also.

The exhaust note on the E63 kills it for me too. I've never liked that deep throaty roar of the AMG cars. Sounds like a Euro version of a 5.0L Mustang V8. The straightpipes on my F10 make this exotic note on par with a Ferrari and well the V10 of the previous generation M5 almost has no equal.

All in all, I think AMG has absolutely stepped up its game, but the benchmark still is and always will be the M5.

Chris Harris provides an honest review here, just skip to about the middle of the video.


Other uber sedans have finally caught up to the M5 in terms of driving dynamic, chassis, balance and steering. The only thing the M5 still has over everyone is the gearbox. Consider the sport CTS is already 400lbs lighter than 550 so you can expect the new monster CTS-V to be almost 300+lbs lighter than the M5 (think about what the current M5 could benefit from being 300lbs lighter). I think the reason you are not seeing DCT in the top level E63 is the tons of tq/hp Mercedes loves to dump in their cars due to the big engine and they need the bigger engine to compete. DCT still has limitations and that is the single reason DCT is not in E63. M5 still wins out in totality if you consider everything in balance (chassis, gearbox, engine).

M5 will be in big trouble once you see DCT in E63 or CTS-V negating the advantage the M5 still has but by then M5 would have figured out how to cut weight with lightweight carbon fiber composites and do it cheaper. BMW is already invested in lightweight carbon fiber composites and introducing in the I-3 and I-8. BMW has always been the benchmark albeit little less now due to competition but BMW will still be ahead. Always easier to have some bogey to follow as a benchmark (CTS-V, E-63). BMW follows no one.


As for the F10 CP and E63 AMG S in the video, look at the trap speed. Rolling start CP F10 M5 will pass E63 AMG S. That is fact.
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      10-24-2013, 12:53 PM   #83
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Honest question though . . .

What's up with those rear calipers on the M5?
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      10-24-2013, 12:54 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND View Post
Leiberman is a clown in real life. Really though. I read it on the net. It's true!
Just like the State Farm commercial.

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Female; "The internet."
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Female; "They can't put anything on the internet that isnt true."
Male; "Where'd you hear that?"
Female; "The internet."
- Enter French model...

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      10-24-2013, 01:03 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcao View Post
Other uber sedans have finally caught up to the M5 in terms of driving dynamic, chassis, balance and steering. The only thing the M5 still has over everyone is the gearbox. Consider the sport CTS is already 400lbs lighter than 550 so you can expect the new monster CTS-V to be almost 300+lbs lighter than the M5 (think about what the current M5 could benefit from being 300lbs lighter). I think the reason you are not seeing DCT in the top level E63 is the tons of tq/hp Mercedes loves to dump in their cars due to the big engine and they need the bigger engine to compete. DCT still has limitations and that is the single reason DCT is not in E63. M5 still wins out in totality if you consider everything in balance (chassis, gearbox, engine).

M5 will be in big trouble once you see DCT in E63 or CTS-V negating the advantage the M5 still has but by then M5 would have figured out how to cut weight with lightweight carbon fiber composites and do it cheaper. BMW is already invested in lightweight carbon fiber composites and introducing in the I-3 and I-8. BMW has always been the benchmark albeit little less now due to competition but BMW will still be ahead. Always easier to have some bogey to follow as a benchmark (CTS-V, E-63). BMW follows no one.


As for the F10 CP and E63 AMG S in the video, look at the trap speed. Rolling start CP F10 M5 will pass E63 AMG S. That is fact.
Yup and as has been stated somewhere on this forum before. The next generation GXX 7 Series is going to be lighter than the current generation F10 5 Series. Where do we think that leaves the next generation GXX M5? My guess is that ///M is going to focus on what they have focused on with the M4, reduction in weight. I'm already guessing the GXX M5 will be less than 4,000lbs. Then we'll see who's talking about the 4,500lbs Merc E63 AMG-S. Lol! I've learned my lesson though and will not be getting a 1st generation GXX M5 until the Comp Package comes out. Lol! Same thing with the M4.
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      10-24-2013, 01:07 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Yup and as has been stated somewhere on this forum before. The next generation GXX 7 Series is going to be lighter than the current generation F10 5 Series. Where do we think that leaves the next generation GXX M5? My guess is that ///M is going to focus on what they have focused on with the M4, reduction in weight. I'm already guessing the GXX M5 will be less than 4,000lbs. Then we'll see who's talking about the 4,500lbs Merc E63 AMG-S. Lol! I've learned my lesson though and will not be getting a 1st generation GXX M5 until the Comp Package comes out. Lol! Same thing with the M4.
So you assume that BMW M will make improvements and that MB AMG will sit idly by and do nothing?

You realize that the current E63 is not a new model . . . it's just the LCI version of the W212 chassis that has been out a while?
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      10-24-2013, 01:11 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
The M5 is only lighter by 142lbs ,.
i dont get the weights , wasnt the pre AWD E63 only like 4100 lbs and change?

and now with AWD its over 4500???

AWD added 400 lbs???
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      10-24-2013, 01:14 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
So you assume that BMW M will make improvements and that MB AMG will sit idly by and do nothing?

You realize that the current E63 is not a new model . . . it's just the LCI version of the W212 chassis that has been out a while?
Yes I realized that, and no one here is more disappointed than me, than BMW's lackluster differences between an LCI and a non-LCI on the F10 5-Series. The E60 LCI was so many more changes than the E60 non-LCI. When Mercedes "catches up" to the next generation GXX M5, I'm sure they'll give ///M a run for their money just like they always do. The M5 will still be the benchmark though.
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