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      09-22-2012, 06:25 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Tourbillon View Post
Mine was completed July 5 and surprised I haven't made the list, yet. I feel the same way. If my car was on the list and I was told I can't drive it for weeks, I would probably go trade it in over the weekend. Ridiculous!
Don't worry, you eventually will...
remember the engine issue with the E46? The the HPFP? And the issues with a small number of S65? Now, the Beast with take complicated turbo engine and ancillaries....now just imagine what will happen to the upcoming M3/M4?
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      09-22-2012, 06:33 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
I am sorry to hear of everyone's issues with this unfortunate event. What people are missing (not specifically you) is that this engine has been running around Europe for a year in consumer's hands- You guys did NOT "BETA" test this engine and it is not an inherent design flaw.

The truth is this is a supplier issue and not an M issue. Suppliers are responsible for QC of the parts they produce they are the one's producing them and have the ability to do so on the line. The contracts auto manufacturers have with suppliers are designed around this. How does one expect a manufacturer to check each part when they are really just in the business of assembling parts from different suppliers?

BMW and M in this case R&D a part with the supplier, come to a final vetted spec and then the part is to be made to that spec by the supplier. If the supplier fails to build to spec that falls on the supplier and that is the major issue with how people look at a recall.

If it was an inherent design flaw that the auto brand developed then by all means they should be the one to blame, but if it is a supplier not meeting QC established then there should be separation, such as this case.

Recently in the auto world there have been recalls that are supplier related and have damaged the image of the auto manufacturer unfortunately- personally this pisses me off because it is unwarranted.

As for the seat bolsters- I am not sure who said the side bolsters would be movable in the US. It sucks that they are not but since the launch of the F10 it was known that the bolsters won't be coming for years or until the LCI because there is a compliance issue with the side airbag or something like that. At the launch of the F10M last year in Spain they mentioned the bolsters would not be coming to the US- a similar thing happened with the X5/X6Ms as well- there was confusion.

I hope that everyone gets their cars back soon, they are amazing and I am sure it is tough to swallow this whole thing. BMW will make good on this, they always do but a lot of these cars I expect will be bought back and new cars ordered because the time line is too close for them to have them all lemoned, but that is just my take.
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Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
Once you took delivery in Europe you took delivery, you can't "refuse" delivery in the US. The car is yours, it is under warranty and BMW is holding up their side of the contract. If they choose to offer you a buy back that is one thing but you really have little to argue- that is part of the ED contract terms and your delivery is your in-service date not your redelivery date. This all sucks but it will all work out and you will be enjoying your beast!

If your oil light did not come on there will be no damage. This is an all or nothing event. Either the pump separates from the shaft (supplier error) or it runs fine. That is why BMW is asking people to not drive- if it hasn't happened there will be no issues other than swapping the pump out as oil has been pumped as normal.

As part of QC when there is a catastrophic failure BMW tears the engine down and examines each part that would have caused the failure to be sure that this is a one off event and not a widespread issue. If they feel this problem is not a one off and a supplier error they look at the batch of parts and move on from there- this is what happened in this case.

More than likely they do not know the exact number of cars this has happened to as the statement was issued by BMWNA and they do not have access to world wide numbers, just their own.

I hope that all this gets sorted but I can say that my 08 M3 was part of a supplier caused recall involving the engine and it has over 60K very hard miles on it.

By looking at the VIN list- it also appears that BMWNA's own fleet- which were used at Leguna Seca for the launch and were abused but none of those cars had any failures (I was there and turned the final lap) or any indication of failure.

I am not sure who the supplier is but I am sure they are in a world of trouble and the cost of all these fixes, buy backs etc. will be placed on them.
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Originally Posted by nybimmerfan View Post
I think everybody is getting too emotional over this issue. As with any production of complex systems that rely on parts from suppliers, there could be instances that the suppliers provided parts that may not pass QC -- remember such problems also happened to some planes made by Boeing and Airbus. The current oil pump problem is not a design flow but a parts supplier problem. I doubt that there is a car manufacturer (be it MBenz, Audi, Honda, Toyota, etc.) that check and put each part under test. Remember that a weak part in the entire system can break the system no matter how good the other parts are. I too am taking delivery of a new M5 and checking my VIN against the list did not find mine in there. BMW for its part is doing everything to correct the situation.
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Originally Posted by ArtE36M3 View Post
My car is included as well. I think BMW is handling it as well as they can. They are fixing it before we have a problem. I am bummed about it but I'm sure it will be fine. Most of us ordered this car site unseen. We had very high expectations. I still love the car and my ED experiencing was a once in a lifetime one. It is better to be temporarily inconvenienced with a repair than to have been disappointed by the entire car itself. It's still a remarkable automobile.
Glad to see some "voices of reason" replied this morning. mapezzul summarized exactly what I was thinking, and nybimmerfan and ArtE36M3 are in the right frame of mind.

It sucks, but it is what it is. Still a phenominal machine!
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      09-22-2012, 06:56 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by whiteM5 View Post
yea some of you guys are a little out there, refuse the car, im killed on resale etc.

it's on warranty, beat on it, i see this as now a known issue and a freebie engine.

how would this in anyway impact resale? the porsche RMS is a simple has it been fixed or not? same with the e46 m3? they're fixing them problem solved.

and the anger at barry? seriously?? could've been anybody, the guy in Nice has his vacation ruined, if you're headed to ED and now have to change plans that's terrible and bmw should help you out, but if your car was already dropped off after ED with no problem, or you're still waiting to order the car, why are you talking? you'll have no impact...
Agee 100%! This issue is turning into mob mentality let's pile own for an oil pump that has to be replaced prior to a "possible" failure. The only person that should be pissed is Barry as it ruined his trip, and he has been a great sport about it. I purchased my car to enjoy, and can care less about resale because I purchased it to own it. A production car guys in never an investment, and should understood as a depreciating asset bottom line. (it's not Apple stock)

I'm still as excited to take redelivery of my car when it arrives, and the supply chain business is a bitch when one worker fails to do their job correctly it's life. We have expensive toys, and be happy we can afford them. Sorry just my two cents, and the 100k I dropped on the M5 the bank wasn't giving squat on my money. So I can't wait, and guys please enjoy the experience it's only an oil pump not an internal engine part like bearings thats when you get concerned!
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      09-22-2012, 06:57 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadmax
Why not drive it???
Is the car under warranty?
You owners should not worry, the worst can happen is engine replacement.
Do you want to get stranded on the road?
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      09-22-2012, 07:10 AM   #93
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I agree with the above mentioned optimistic point of view, and yes, it "is what it is" we will not change anything in the discussions that take place on this forum. However, many of us are let down in a myriad of ways. Some are inconvenienced much more than others in regards to this negligence on their behalf. If BMW does not offer some sort of compensation to the ones affected by this then I will certainly not have the same opinion of BMW that I have had for the last 12 years of purchasing their vehicles. I understand that this a private manufacturer's oversight, but BMW stamps their name on it. Just in the U.S. 696 cars are affected, that equals well over $ 70,000,000.00 sold in 1 quarter. Thats a substantial customer sales number and it should not be taken lightly.

The other side of this is someone like me, and I believe there was another gentlemen in the same predicament. According to someone on here, they said all cars scheduled for production (week 40 is mine) are now on hold. We have a lease ending around the time of anticipated delivery and we are now left in limbo. Do we rent a car, do we borrow a car, or do we hold onto the lease car we are driving? We are in a rock and a hard place. I do plan on taking this up with BMWNA, but I can say now with certainty that I really hope I don't receive some BS bureaucratic answer that designed be vague and keep reeled in. It is likely this is what they will do so I do not withdraw my deposit and buy a competing product for a much better deal.
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      09-22-2012, 07:11 AM   #94
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It's a shame that BMW learns nothing from the N54 fuel pump QC issue.

oh well, I hope BMW will rectify this for all of you guys & prevent any mishap for the upcoming F80 M3.
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      09-22-2012, 07:21 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aculeg87 View Post
I agree with the above mentioned optimistic point of view, and yes, it "is what it is" we will not change anything in the discussions that take place on this forum. However, many of us are let down in a myriad of ways. Some are inconvenienced much more than others in regards to this negligence on their behalf. If BMW does not offer some sort of compensation to the ones affected by this then I will certainly not have the same opinion of BMW that I have had for the last 12 years of purchasing their vehicles. I understand that this a private manufacturer's oversight, but BMW stamps their name on it. Just in the U.S. 696 cars are affected, that equals well over $ 70,000,000.00 sold in 1 quarter. Thats a substantial customer sales number and it should not be taken lightly.

The other side of this is someone like me, and I believe there was another gentlemen in the same predicament. According to someone on here, they said all cars scheduled for production (week 40 is mine) are now on hold. We have a lease ending around the time of anticipated delivery and we are now left in limbo. Do we rent a car, do we borrow a car, or do we hold onto the lease car we are driving? We are in a rock and a hard place. I do plan on taking this up with BMWNA, but I can say now with certainty that I really hope I don't receive some BS bureaucratic answer that designed be vague and keep reeled in. It is likely this is what they will do so I do not withdraw my deposit and buy a competing product for a much better deal.
I'm in the same boat as you. Turned my E60 M5 in yesterday. Due to a convenient coincidence, I have a car I can borrow for next week, but after that ??? I plan to talk with my CA today about a loaner car.
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      09-22-2012, 07:25 AM   #96
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BMW will extend a lease up to 3 months if you order a car and your lease ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aculeg87 View Post
I agree with the above mentioned optimistic point of view, and yes, it "is what it is" we will not change anything in the discussions that take place on this forum. However, many of us are let down in a myriad of ways. Some are inconvenienced much more than others in regards to this negligence on their behalf. If BMW does not offer some sort of compensation to the ones affected by this then I will certainly not have the same opinion of BMW that I have had for the last 12 years of purchasing their vehicles. I understand that this a private manufacturer's oversight, but BMW stamps their name on it. Just in the U.S. 696 cars are affected, that equals well over $ 70,000,000.00 sold in 1 quarter. Thats a substantial customer sales number and it should not be taken lightly.

The other side of this is someone like me, and I believe there was another gentlemen in the same predicament. According to someone on here, they said all cars scheduled for production (week 40 is mine) are now on hold. We have a lease ending around the time of anticipated delivery and we are now left in limbo. Do we rent a car, do we borrow a car, or do we hold onto the lease car we are driving? We are in a rock and a hard place. I do plan on taking this up with BMWNA, but I can say now with certainty that I really hope I don't receive some BS bureaucratic answer that designed be vague and keep reeled in. It is likely this is what they will do so I do not withdraw my deposit and buy a competing product for a much better deal.
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      09-22-2012, 07:33 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil_ View Post
BMW will extend a lease up to 3 months if you order a car and your lease ends.
Actually it's 6 months. I've already maxed out the extensions.
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      09-22-2012, 07:35 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil_ View Post
BMW will extend a lease up to 3 months if you order a car and your lease ends.
Thank you for the info, but that does not help me. It's very nice of them, but it's only a band aid to other individuals more inconvenienced. I have already begun my crusade with BMWNA and I would like something in official writing with a promise of delivery, or a handsome lease payment reduction since I, like many of you are getting raped on the price due to our true love and immediate desire for this vehicle. It's safe to say we all have a bad taste in our mouth.

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      09-22-2012, 07:51 AM   #99
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I'm glad they are doing a recall after only one failure. It is a sign they take their quality seriously. I honestly think people's anger is misplaced here. The company is doing the right thing. In the past BMW has been too late to issue recalls.

I hope they do the same with the springs even though I haven't experienced that issue yet.
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      09-22-2012, 08:10 AM   #100
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Why do they owe you anything? The only guy they owe is barry and they sgould do more than a replacement car given time lost.

They shut down production to rectify obviously a serious issue. If you take any other industry (health care)- one faulty defibrillator and there is a recall on all of them given the potential loss. This is the right thing to do rather than cover it up- you would be much angrier if a bunch of people blew their engines and ignored it (*coils*)
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      09-22-2012, 08:19 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chong0 View Post
Why do they owe you anything? The only guy they owe is barry and they sgould do more than a replacement car given time lost.

They shut down production to rectify obviously a serious issue. If you take any other industry (health care)- one faulty defibrillator and there is a recall on all of them. This is the right thing to do rather than cover it up- you would be much angrier if a bunch of people blew their engines and ignored it (*coils*)
Bingo!
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      09-22-2012, 08:21 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chong0 View Post
Why do they owe you anything? They shut down production to rectify obviously a serious issue. If you take any other industry (health care)- one faulty defibrillator and there is a recall on all of them. This is the right thing to do rather than cover it up- you would be much angrier if a bunch of people blew their engines.
Yes they are doing the right thing, but don't be so quick to praise. They are not doing the "right thing" only because they are noble. They are more motivated by cost effectiveness, and reputation. Any business would, so I am not faulting them for that. That being said, they do owe something. As consumers we are given the opportunity to make decisions based different opinion owned by our own sense of taste and comfort. We have other options. Some of us no matter what want this car, but there are different circumstances that affect us individually. Some of us will not be affected by the uncertain wait. Some of us, are and were contemplating a competing vehicle. Some us might be forced to buy a different car because we have no choice. This is my point of view and I do not expect you to share it, but this a forum where we discuss different views and share information.
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      09-22-2012, 08:45 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadmax View Post
Why not drive it???
Is the car under warranty?
You owners should not worry, the worst can happen is engine replacement.
Once the owner is provided the "cease and desist" order to stop driving i'm sure if you have a an engine failure due to the oil pump you'll probably be staring at a lightening quick warranty void scenario......
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      09-22-2012, 08:48 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by jgarvish View Post
I plan to refuse delivery of my ED M5 that is currently on the boat on the way over here.
Legally is that even an option? I think we already own the car. Just like if you'd bought a lemon here in the USA.
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      09-22-2012, 09:28 AM   #105
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Thanks to everyone for their views on this. I'm interested in the contrary position to mine as I would really like to have my mind changed but so far I haven't heard any arguments that suffice to ease my concerns. I think it's important to remember that this isn't a used vehicle that we all were purchasing hoping that no one wrecked it or mistreated it leading to serious engine problems. I buy my cars new because I plan to keep them for a long time and do not have an interest in being saddled with a car with serious engine issues. Our (or at least my) intent and expectation was to buy a state of the art brand new problem free car with presumably no design problems that could lead to catastrophic engine failure. I was in Munich at the same time as Barry and was very distraught when his engine failed. To be honest I was hoping that the failure was because he abused the car or otherwise mistreated it. That's obviously not the case now that BMW has instituted this recall and I'm not convinced that even BMW knows what the real problem is. Further, I'm disturbed that they have not been truthful about the reason that they found out about this problem as a poster mentioned earlier in this thread. In addition, BMW has stopped production and apparently doesn't even currently have the part to fix the issue available. This is a sign of a very big issue IMHO and I think the clear implication is that BMW had not done enough testing if they identified this problem only after one of the very first US customers took delivery - and that customer had driven only a 100 or so miles and did this driving well within the break in limits. My suspicion is that this is a sign of a bigger problem and at the very least I have lost confidence in this car. If others have different or contrary thoughts on this I welcome those insights. If folks agree with me I also welcome those thoughts.
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      09-22-2012, 09:28 AM   #106
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My car showed the oil pressure warning at startup in Geneva this am. 24 hr roadside assistance is a joke, they will not send a loaner only a tow. This is now a disaster to our trip.
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      09-22-2012, 09:31 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadmax View Post
BMW discovered this problem from quality control, how could they discover if the cars were already delivered and why they did not discover before releasing the cars.

Why are they not telling the truth: after customer complains that their m5 & M6 engines are no longer running we located the problem.

In order to prevent more engine replacements we beg our customers not drive until further notice.

It appears that new M5 & M6 owners are the latest BMW test drivers, for free.
Actually they are paying BMW for this.
Well said. I also don't see any other way to interpret this.

Remember what happened in late 90's with the first Mercedes A series when the car rolled and crashed in an automobile magazine's test drive? Not the same, sure, but I am sensing the aftershocks of this last issue may have similar consequences to BMW's image and they better try to fix it right and quick instead of "cheap and easy"!

My 1M can be my last BMW too, like another poster said before, and it is not because it has issues like this. Not yet at least. And the car is fantastic but BMW services, aftersales and everything else seem to fall way behind.

Last edited by ozinaldo; 09-22-2012 at 09:39 AM..
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      09-22-2012, 09:42 AM   #108
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The roadside assistance is ignoring me and turning the car on to move it, I have it on video, this is now officially not my problem. Good job BMW
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      09-22-2012, 09:44 AM   #109
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My original comments of frustration came from BMW being so vague when I received the call. I own a Ferrari 458 as well, and was very aware of engine fires burning up cars around the world. The difference is that once isolated to an oil line insulation problem, the fix was available at dealers immediately.

I just would like to know when the solution will be available at our dealers rather than being told that letters will be going out with further information sometime in October. When I pushed BMWNA about the timing of the replacement oil pump, his supervisor confirmed that they will not have any further information until the middle of October. Really???

I’m a pretty low key guy and certainly get that this type of thing happens. I just expect specific info on the resolution rather than what appeared to be BS.
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      09-22-2012, 09:46 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteM5 View Post
My car showed the oil pressure warning at startup in Geneva this am. 24 hr roadside assistance is a joke, they will not send a loaner only a tow. This is now a disaster to our trip.
This is the scenario I would dread the most (running without oil, but not quite long enough to totally grenade the engine). If the oil pump actually failed, they should AT A MINIMUM give you a free 100K warranty on the engine.
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