Does your M5 need a kick up its arse?

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I think I'm going to take it back to the dealers and ask them to check it out, because I'm seriously not enjoying its all or nothing performance.

I don't believe there's anything wrong with your car. My does the same and it has adjusted to my driving style (which is 90% gentle 60mph cruise on m'ways), so much so that I cannot feel the DCT gear changes in any setting, even when I occasionally hit M2 (sport+/D3) and floor it.

After I had a fuel top up ~1K miles ago, when I picked the car up from the dealers I could feel every gear change even in efficient/D1. The throttle had also become more responsive to small inputs.

If I drive my car once every week, I generally notice the fuel economy improving, however, if I don't drive it for anything over 4 weeks, it seems to reset itself. This car will adapt to different driving styles.

Before you take it back, I would suggest setting to Sport+/D3 and then driving on a B road interlaced with roundabouts to work the engine/gearbox, then test throttle sensitivity from a 65mph cruise. I've noticed a change in responsiveness in my car if a go out for a solely spirited drive, rather than a long business trip cruising at 60mph.

I do agree with other comments about chassis isolation, however, I don't believe that is the issue you are describing. It is quite possible, however, that as a heavy luxury car, BMW have set up the M5 to dull it's responses to a greater extent, if you start driving it sedately, than those in the M135i. Greater forces involved, hence, greater need to protect the components unless you say otherwise by driving it hard. M5's have a reputation for duality, I've not heard the same of the M135i.

My 313hp 535d had a Mercedes-like soft throttle response in Eco-Pro, but was sharp as soon as you switched to Sport/Sport+. I would say slightly better initial throttle response at times, in the latter setting, than the M5, but due to lack of noise/feel, harder to control incremental increase in speed.

I have noticed that fuel can make a difference in the M5 - my car runs very smooth on Shell V Power+, but feels slow to respond to small throttle inputs as a result. On BP ultimate it runs rough in comparison, but also feels more edgy & more responsive to small throttle inputs.

I also have the M Perf. exhaust fitted which results in a subtle but not insignificant improvement in throttle sensitivity.

My advice to you would be to persevere before you take it back to the dealer. As an analogy, I hated the lack of grip on my PSS tyres last winter (<3K miles), but this winter (>10K miles) there is a significant improvement, even approaching 0 deg C, albeit that I've avoided driving on ice/snow/frost covered surfaces. Some of that is due to the suspension & tyres bedding in, some due to learning to drive the car & my confidence increasing.

HTH.

[PhilT3]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

In my opinion, I think it's just you and your "feeling."
Granted I will give you this. There is in fact some turbo lag, although not a huge amount, due the cats. If you drive my M5 with Catless Downpipes and full exhaust and in D3 mode on the highway, the DCT "kicks down" as you say, faster than instantaneously and the cars throttle response and initial acceleration feels like engine is naturally aspirated. Whenever I get a chance to drive another F10 M5 with the stock downpipes, I'm always surprised at how much I can tell the difference in throttle response and acceleration.

However, I still think that in throttle Sport Plus mode with the stock downpipes, the initial acceleration and response is quite astonishing for a turbo charged car with a large displacement engine.

Catless DP's really made that much a difference? What if they were hi-flow catted? Similar effect?

[Loft23]

Like others have said, it's a feeling, but look down or at the HUD and see how quickly your speed increases.

[gblansten]

Jesus Christ. I have had a C63, M3 and now the M5. This car goes psycho fast in a heartbeat and scares the $h** out of passengers. No complaints here.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Loft23

Like others have said, it's a feeling, but look down or at the HUD and see how quickly your speed increases.

but with respect that's just the point....it doesn't increase. It just sits there, doing nothing, so you give it more gas, still nothing much until finally you're on the floor and it kicks down 2 cogs and you're finally on your way to the horizon.

From standstill it feels like a 575hp car with tremendous urge, but let it settle into a cruise in 7th with 1500 rpm and it forgets its a performance car and turns into something entirely more benign, heavy and underpowered, until you floor it that is.

Overtaking cars yesterday, I'd pull out to overtake and spend several seconds discussing with the car whether we were actually going to pass. We eventually did, in a blast of lunatic acceleration accompanied by rolling thunder.

The point is, from cruise, the car needs large amounts of gas pedal to go, then takes off like hell. There's nothing remotely linear about it.

I've driven fast cars and very, very fast motor cycles all my adult life, including several M cars and open class dirt bikes so I do recognise when something accelerates and when it doesn't.

Let me give you an example of the dichotomy that it this car. Sit at a roundabout or junction, take off and give a smidgen, a smidgen too much gas and you'll break traction. Once moving, ease your foot down slightly and you'll be pushed back in your seat. Give a little more and you're accelerating hard with a Basso Profondo growl from the exhaust. 500 foot lbs and several hundred horsepower in action.....lovely.
Settle into a comfortable 60 mph cruise, enjoying the B road bends that you don't slow down for. You catch another car and follow at a steady 50 mph in 6th or 7th gear. The road straightens out, you check your mirrors, signal and ease down on the gas, expecting to easily rumble past, except you don't. You give a little more but still you're not passing. Eventually you push down far enough for the gearbox to swap 2 cogs and get you on your way....fast, which is just as well because you're running out of road. In the M135i you could exactly replicate this behaviour by taking off in Sport +, then on reaching cruise speed, switching to Eco-plus. The difference is that in Sport+ a couple of millimetres on the gas pedal gets instantaneous results, whereas in Eco plus, 5cm doesn't bring very much. That's exactly what's going on here. On taking off and accelerating through the gears a small amount of throttle is all that's required, but once cruising it feels like the throttle mapping has changed to where large amounts of throttle have little effect.

I'm going to have a word with my Dealer and see if they have any insights.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Settle into a comfortable 60 mph cruise, enjoying the B road bends that you don't slow down for. You catch another car and follow at a steady 50 mph in 6th or 7th gear. The road straightens out, you check your mirrors, signal and ease down on the gas, expecting to easily rumble past, except you don't. You give a little more but still you're not passing. Eventually you push down far enough for the gearbox to swap 2 cogs and get you on your way....fast, which is just as well because you're running out of road. In the M135i you could exactly replicate this behaviour by taking off in Sport +, then on reaching cruise speed, switching to Eco-plus. The difference is that in Sport+ a couple of millimetres on the gas pedal gets instantaneous results, whereas in Eco plus, 5cm doesn't bring very much. That's exactly what's going on here. On taking off and accelerating through the gears a small amount of throttle is all that's required, but once cruising it feels like the throttle mapping has changed to where large amounts of throttle have little effect.

I'm going to have a word with my Dealer and see if they have any insights.

For spirited B road driving in the M5, I switch to sequential gearbox settings and keep the revs higher that just over 1K just before overtaking - as you know the in gear throttle response from 2K+ is instantaneous.

This is a 2 tonne autobahn stormer - you need to drive it differently from a hot hatch to extract similar/greater performance.

Although he was ridiculed by many on this forum for his summary, Lieberman had a basis for his 'chisel to a hammer' comment, however, some of that stems from lack of time learning how to extract the best from this car.

By all means take it back to the dealer and ask them to drive the car in a spirited manner - I'm sure they'll oblige, but I strongly doubt they'll find fault. I'm not attempting to be condescending here, I agree with you that this car isn't as responsive as you'd expect if driven exactly as you describe. IMHO, however, it's designed to be that way, otherwise it would always be 'on'. I don't believe that would suit the wider demographic that BMW is now targeting with the current gen M5.

I have also considered jumping ship, but decided to accept the M5 for what it is and take time to learn how to extract the best from it. It was the advice my sales manager gave me when I was test driving my first few examples and was initially underwhelmed.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by PhilT3

Catless DP's really made that much a difference? What if they were hi-flow catted? Similar effect?

Catless downpipes make a huge difference. Turbo lag is non existent once you increase all that air flow behind the turbo.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

For spirited B road driving in the M5, I switch to sequential gearbox settings and keep the revs higher that just over 1K just before overtaking - as you know the in gear throttle response from 2K+ is instantaneous.

This is a 2 tonne autobahn stormer - you need to drive it differently from a hot hatch to extract similar/greater performance.

Although he was ridiculed by many on this forum for his summary, Lieberman had a basis for his 'chisel to a hammer' comment, however, some of that stems from lack of time learning how to extract the best from this car.

By all means take it back to the dealer and ask them to drive the car in a spirited manner - I'm sure they'll oblige, but I strongly doubt they'll find fault. I'm not attempting to be condescending here, I agree with you that this car isn't as responsive as you'd expect if driven exactly as you describe. IMHO, however, it's designed to be that way, otherwise it would always be 'on'. I don't believe that would suit the wider demographic that BMW is now targeting with the current gen M5.

I have also considered jumping ship, but decided to accept the M5 for what it is and take time to learn how to extract the best from it. It was the advice my sales manager gave me when I was test driving my first few examples and was initially underwhelmed.

I just talked to one of BMW's 'Geniuses' and believe I now know what's going on. I think your message above is spot on.

The main problem I believe, is that I'm driving the M5 like I drove the M135i but they are very different cars and require different driving styles

The M135 is primarily a Sport Automatic and is programmed as such. It offers Eco-Pro as its economy package which I never used because it anaesthetized the car. It has flappy paddles but is optimized for automatic shifting, which it does very well.

The M5 is primarily a semi-automatic, optimized for flappy paddle shifting. Comfort also has an economy element, which is programmed to hold onto gears as long as possible to optimize smoothness and economy. I guess what's been confusing me is that the M5's performance in Comfort through the gears is very brisk....but once cruising it reverts to its priority of holding gears for a smooth and economical ride

When wishing to overtake a car in the M135i you'd leave it up to the AT to find the optimum ratio. In the M5, the expectation is that the driver would select the right ratio using flappy paddles and dose the gas accordingly.

Essentially what I'm doing is using the gas pedal to overcome the gearbox's economy programming instead of either using a more sporty setting (as I would have done in the M135i) or overriding the gearbox with the flappy paddle and dosing the gas accordingly.

I'm going to try a different driving style, using flappy paddles when I want Sporty and see how I go.

Really appreciate all the feedback guys!

[Ray knight]

I would agree the ZF 8-speed really helps part throttle response and kicks down much better than the DCT. The DCT upshifts better than anything. Honestly for normal driving i'd have the ZF 8-speed over my DCT. I know it would be slower but i'd bet it feels faster in normal driving part-half throttle. Now for hooliganism the DCT is way more fun! But i get more normal driving than play driving. The ZF 8-speed is no fun in manual mode. The DCT is no fun in auto mode.

[M5essex]

Hi Steve, I would definitely say you have to get used to the power delivery compared to your previous cars. but what you are describing does not sound like the M5 I used to own. I always felt that those c600horses and 500tq were always there on tap and I didn't have to mash the throttle to get a stiffy or feel the boost. I certainly NEVER felt I had to change down gears to over take anything.

perhaps you drove it too sedately during break-in and now you have an Eco-M car who tries to get you the best MPG available? I drove mine hard from the start, even during breakin period and was blessed with a stonkingly quick M5, never burnt oil and that I still think is as quick as my current whip. and that is mentally quick.

go and take her out and find a dry road to open up the taps, go right through the rev range and remind the car what it's purpose in life is... and get it to forget about your previous driving style of eco-warrior fuel saving. lol.

I think I remember the car auto starts in comfort mode and D1?. put the gear change into D2 and sport for everyday driving and preset your M1 button to this and the other one to full mental sp+ mode and D3 ;-)

enjoy her how M division intended... good luck and I hope you fall in love with it again.

[SteveC]

I took it out this afternoon and used the paddles and there's no question in manual its a very fast and responsive car

On the other hand, with the car in D2 and Sport+ I could actually push (not stab) the gas pedal literally to the floor in 7th at 60 mph without it kicking down or gaining a lot of speed. You really wouldn't want to commit to an overtake in auto without plenty of road. I hate the fact that you push down on the gas, expect dynamite and get fizzle.

The problem was I picked up the car in December and since then its been very cold, frosty or wet, so I've tended to drive quite cautiously because an M5 with new summer tyres on a cold damp road is a traction nightmare.

I'll take it out tomorrow and do as you suggest. I hope it gets better because right now I'm hating the fricking thing.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I took it out this afternoon and used the paddles and there's no question in manual its a very fast and responsive car

On the other hand, with the car in D2 and Sport+ I could actually push (not stab) the gas pedal literally to the floor in 7th at 60 mph without it kicking down or gaining a lot of speed. You really wouldn't want to commit to an overtake in auto without plenty of road. I hate the fact that you push down on the gas, expect dynamite and get fizzle.

The problem was I picked up the car in December and since then its been very cold, frosty or wet, so I've tended to drive quite cautiously because an M5 with new summer tyres on a cold damp road is a traction nightmare.

I'll take it out tomorrow and do as you suggest. I hope it gets better because right now I'm hating the fricking thing.

In D3 the DCT will kick down from 7th to 3rd in a flash. I understand that people don't want to drive in D2 mode all the time, but that's what the M buttons on the steering wheel are for. Also 95% of M5 owners drive in S mode anyways, so kick down is always amazing when you command the DCT.

[Ex_Stig]

The M5 is not really meant to be driven in Auto mode. It isn't really an automatic gearbox. Stop expecting it to act as if it were.

Comparing to an 8spd slushbox is where things got confusing. There is no comparison.

[VR000M5]

well.. i came from a e46 m3 to e63 m6 to e92 m3 to the f10 m5.

(my history on the ///M side)

I can say coming from the e63 m6 to the e92 m3. I felt a loss of power but it came with agility. Now that said, I just picked up my 2015 M5.

It feels great. its very responsive.

I think the general feelin on the board is that we dont' see you or able to comprehend what you are dealing with. Why don't you make a go pro vid and show us?

[Sic'eM 5]

You are doing it wrong.

There is no way if you push the gas to the floor you can't pass some one at 60mph.

Two ideas:
1. You are easing into it way to much. Punch the gas like you mean it
2. With your left hand, pull the paddle 1-3 times, right foot to the floor, and hold on tight. You can do this from auto mode, you don't have to select manual mode first.

I generally drive in sport / sport+ but have no problem passing in all comfort with the family on board.

Also, the default traction control - the safest mode - WILL cut power in my experience (but that's generally when I'm at lower speeds).

[SteveC]

Did as y'all suggested and took the car for a DRIVE. It was a nice dry day with reasonable temperatures so traction was fine

Several observations.

In D1 there's almost no kickdown unless you almost floor the pedal, but if you have >2000rpm that's not a problem because the car picks up speed plenty fast. At 1500rpm however it will not gain speed quickly so one or two pulls on the minus lever is needed when you want to overtake briskly, then its a rocket ship, responding instantly to the throttle and totally linear

So D1 is a bit like EcoPLus in the M135i....essentially for economy. I never used Eco Plus because I hated how numb the car felt. The difference and what confused me is that in the M5 D1 is still plenty quick through the gears but once in 7th at low revs it gets bogged down because it only kicks down very reluctantly.

In D2 at 1500 rpm when you give a little gas it will typically kick down one gear, which lifts the revs to around 2000 rpm and provides perfectly good acceleration. After a good DRIVE, it seemed that D2 did become more responsive and now kicks down in response to relatively small increases in gas....however using S Mode for overtaking is still the better option, as many of you pointed out

The other big difference between the M135i and the M5 is the point at which the powerband proper starts. With the E30 M3 it was 4500rpm, with the Z4M about 4000rpm, the M5 its about 2000rpm and the M135i circa 1500rpm. I was expecting a V8 to be more torquey than a straight 6 but that's clearly not the case.

So I really enjoyed today's drive.....a good warm up followed by several sprints through the gears. That and stopping trying to accelerate quickly in 7th gear from low revs using D1 seems to have solved my problem.

[Bönz]

Don't confuse an engine's torque curve with total torque. The S63Tu in the M5 has significantly more torque than the N55 6 cylinder in the 135. Perhaps it comes on a bit later (not sure exactly as I haven't plotted these curves on top of one another), but the area under the curve (the only thing that matters) is much greater.

I'm thinking you may never have driven a manual (odd for a Brit) but lugging the engine is never going to get you there...

[Wills2]

What the OP is failing to understand is 7th gear in the M5 is a huge gear (40mph per 1k rpm) it will take the M5 to 200mph, how would it pick up and fly from 1500rpm in 7th?

That gear has a span from 60-200mph he is asking asking far far too much from it, the M135i would probably stall given the same situation.

The M5 has more torque and more power everywhere compared to the M135i the performance in gear, top speed and straight line is in another league, it makes more torque at tick over than the M135i can muster at max.

[bronch]

Originally Posted by SteveC

"... You catch another car and follow at a steady 50 mph in 6th or 7th gear. The road straightens out, you check your mirrors, signal and ease down on the gas, expecting to easily rumble past, except you don't. You give a little more but still you're not passing. Eventually you push down far enough for the gearbox to swap 2 cogs and get you on your way....fast, which is just as well because you're running out of road...

I think I get what what you're saying from the above quote. You also mentioned dichotomy somewhere else and I think that's a good description. It's not a sports car. It's a performance luxury land barge that handles remarkably well for it's size. Yes, it will settle in when you cruise, because that is it's nature. It's nothing like your M135 or any M3 or the new M4, 911, GTR, etc... It's meant to be big and comfortable. Then M div gave it a great engine and suspension. I think stop mucking around with partial throttle when you want to pass and just depress it to the floor. In most cases, you shouldn't run out of road before you pass. I do think it's a problem between your past experience and your expectations. But, in no way do I think you should be let down by it's straight line power.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Wills2

What the OP is failing to understand is 7th gear in the M5 is a huge gear (40mph per 1k rpm) it will take the M5 to 200mph, how would it pick up and fly from 1500rpm in 7th?

That gear has a span from 60-200mph he is asking asking far far too much from it, the M135i would probably stall given the same situation.

The M5 has more torque and more power everywhere compared to the M135i the performance in gear, top speed and straight line is in another league, it makes more torque at tick over than the M135i can muster at max.

What I'm expecting when cruising at 1500 rpm in 7th gear and giving more gas is for the DCT to smoothly select a more appropriate ratio and the car to surge forward in a linear fashion, showing the same performance it showed through the gears. Instead it just sits there doing nothing much. In D1 the M5 basically gets to cruising speed very quickly indeed, then essentially goes to sleep
With both cars in top gear cruising at 60 in Comfort setting, the M135i would eat the M5 alive in terms of kick down and go. And that's why I've been struggling. In the M5 you need to use Sequential mode.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Bönz

Don't confuse an engine's torque curve with total torque. The S63Tu in the M5 has significantly more torque than the N55 6 cylinder in the 135. Perhaps it comes on a bit later (not sure exactly as I haven't plotted these curves on top of one another), but the area under the curve (the only thing that matters) is much greater.

I'm thinking you may never have driven a manual (odd for a Brit) but lugging the engine is never going to get you there...

I've driven manuals my entire life. This is only my 4th automatic in several dozen cars.

From a driver's standpoint its the shape of the torque and power curves and the weight of the vehicle that define how the car feels, The Z4M is a little rocket at anything above 5K but a 330d feels a lot faster in relaxed everyday driving at normal speeds because the '30d makes its peak torque at 1200 rpm and the Z4M at 5000. You have to pedal the Z4M on its gearstick to make it go faster than an 330d

My expectation was that the M5's torque and power curves come in the same or earlier than the M135i but they don't. Combine that with the unwillingness of DCT in D1 to kick down.....

Then think about the logic of what you said; "lugging the engine is never going to get you there". Given that the car is in auto, this surely begs the question, why would BMW engineers program an auto gearbox to lug the engine, because that's what its doing. The answer I believe is fuel efficiency. Like the stop/start function, D1 is programmed to eke out a few more yards/meters in the hunt for more fuel efficiency, with the logic that the driver can override at any time with S mode (which is the point I missed). Manual really wasn't much fun in the M135 whereas full auto was great, even for full on sports driving. In this regard the M5 is all about Sequential shifting, but I was still orientated towards auto. Clearly with the new car I need to mend my ways

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by SteveC

What I'm expecting when cruising at 1500 rpm in 7th gear and giving more gas is for the DCT to smoothly select a more appropriate ratio and the car to surge forward in a linear fashion, showing the same performance it showed through the gears. Instead it just sits there doing nothing much. In D1 the M5 basically gets to cruising speed very quickly indeed, then essentially goes to sleep
With both cars in top gear cruising at 60 in Comfort setting, the M135i would eat the M5 alive in terms of kick down and go. And that's why I've been struggling. In the M5 you need to use Sequential mode.

At 1500 RPM in 7th gear, 50 mph, D1/efficient if you kickdown, DCT will shift down to 3rd gear and RPM immediately jumps to 3k and your car accelerates quickly. you will see 100 mph in ~5 second.
At 1500 RPM, 6th gear, 40 mph, D1 /efficient if you kickdown, DCT will shift down to 2nd gear and RPM immediately jumps to 4k and your car accelerates quickly. you will see 100 mph in ~6 second.
Do you need me to make a video to show you?