Dyno'd at 552whp on a DynoJet, stock car (EAS European Auto Source Dyno)

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Spinny02

ColdList empty your inbox =)

JS

lol! Done :-)

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst

Always seen dynoes are done this way. I would think it helps especially when your car is inside of a hot shop. Let me know why it's bad. It's always good to hear other opinions.

Just from guessing I would assume the DME suspects something is wrong when the hood is open and the rear wheels/speedo says you are doing 130MPH... At least here in Europe with the pedestrian protection sensors and explosives attached to the rear of the hood (to lift it clear from the engine in a head on collision with a pedestrian).

Same as when front wheels are stationary and rear wheels are doing 130MPH. DME knows that this is a dyno session. And if BMW doesn't want you to dyno the car, or wants it done a specific way, there is no problem to detect hood open etc.

Hood open might then lead to confusion for the DME and lead to it trying to do corrective measures that could influence dyno runs.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Just from guessing I would assume the DME suspects something is wrong when the hood is open and the rear wheels/speedo says you are doing 130MPH... At least here in Europe with the pedestrian protection sensors and explosives attached to the rear of the hood (to lift it clear from the engine in a head on collision with a pedestrian).

Same as when front wheels are stationary and rear wheels are doing 130MPH. DME knows that this is a dyno session. And if BMW doesn't want you to dyno the car, or wants it done a specific way, there is no problem to detect hood open etc.

Hood open might then lead to confusion for the DME and lead to it trying to do corrective measures that could influence dyno runs.

I think you are right, thats a good sensible assumption.
GTR""s have the same system, do they Dyno with the bonnet open ok?.

[greentrbo95gst]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Just from guessing I would assume the DME suspects something is wrong when the hood is open and the rear wheels/speedo says you are doing 130MPH... At least here in Europe with the pedestrian protection sensors and explosives attached to the rear of the hood (to lift it clear from the engine in a head on collision with a pedestrian).

Same as when front wheels are stationary and rear wheels are doing 130MPH. DME knows that this is a dyno session. And if BMW doesn't want you to dyno the car, or wants it done a specific way, there is no problem to detect hood open etc.

Hood open might then lead to confusion for the DME and lead to it trying to do corrective measures that could influence dyno runs.

This definitely makes sense.

[ColdList]

Without knowing the technical details and not being an engineer myself, I can tell you that I was told by the engineers that there are many complex tables and processes that must be followed. A couple ones were:

1. You must have a true 1:1 environment for the car in terms of wind. If the car is showing 150 mph on the speedometer then you must also be blowing 150 mph wind directly into the car in a manner that directly represents the natural method of intake (ie: blowing a random "blast" of air on the car and justifying it by saying "our fan is powerful" does not cut it). If you ever see Dinan cars on Dynos, he has a large cloth "funnel" affixed to the fan and the other end to the front end of the car. Probably the closest representation of anyone.

2. Must also run the transmission 1:1. I don't fully understand how this works either but in short you cannot Dyno the US cars properly not matter what you do because of the speed limiter.

Here's the thing. Most guys buy a Dyno and run them on less advanced cars and all is well (in most cases-in others they don't even realize that it isn't). They own "repair" or "upgrade" shops (ie: they INSTALL performance parts-not manufacture or usually TRULY understand them. Most can't REALLY tell you if things like CAI, etc. work. They believe what they are told and install them). Then they get a car like an F10 and they think they know what they are doing. They strap it down, point some fans and off they go. Then you call them on it and they say "well, even if the ACTUAL numbers are not entirely accurate you can still compute GAINS by looking at before and after numbers (they assume that maybe both runs read "high" or "low" on the numbers and assume that they are equally inaccurate and assert that the difference can still be used to measure gains-WRONG!) The problem is that NONE OF THE DATA is anything more than "suspect" at best. BOTH numbers are flawed and they are never equally flawed. When I had my car Dyno'd, it was done by an EXTREMELY well-known and very smart tuner. He actually was data-logging (which VERY FEW do) while the car was on the Dyno and he immediately knew that "something is wrong". We were watching the car do random things with the throttling and had NO IDEA what was going on. We put another F1 on there to compare and it did the same thing. We data logged on the road and voila!-no craziness. Keep in mind that we were NOT looking for this. In fact, at the time I had none of this knowledge. I was just interested in getting the "real" hp/tq numbers for my car. It was only a few days AFTERWARD that I had the conversation that mentioned all of this and I went "hhhhmmmmmmm" NOW I get what was going on". These cars are smart and they KNOW when you put them on the Dyno. In fact, to prove what I was being told that day, my guy in the US, whose shop I was at that day having the conversation hooked my car up to the computer and there were a lot of codes. So there is another thing to be aware of. These "Dyno gurus" tell you not to worry about the lights on the dash that can appear during the Dyno and to drive a short distance and everything will disappear. They are correct. The lights on the dash disappear but the codes in the car do not. Now you have to find someone competent enough to completely rid your car of these.. How would you like to have your car go in for warranty service and these to appear? Not good.

Just consider these "Dyno" machines. The popular Dyno Jets in most of these shop looks pretty darn ancient. They were never created for these cars. In fact, unless you engine Dyno, you really need to use a Dyno that locks to your hubs. This eliminates the inevitable wheel slip that you get on all other Dynos.

btw...In the story of my car above, I had also run my car on another Dyno Jet at another shop two days before and got ENTIRELY different numbers. HHHmmmmmmmm....

Here is the thing. We get so hng up on "I got 30 more hp" and bs like this that we blow money and stress ourselves out and in the end we really don;t know WHAT we got (if anything). My take is that if you feel it in the good old butt Dyno then it was probably worth it. If not, it probably wasn't. Don't fool yourself into believing that "feel good" Dyno graph. It is meaningless.

Side note: I was told that the F10/12/13 Dyno manual is 26 pages. Must be lots you need to know BEFORE you put it on a machine and start charging people for what is effectively entertainment.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Without knowing the technical details and not being an engineer myself, I can tell you that I was told by the engineers that there are many complex tables and processes that must be followed. A couple ones were:

1. You must have a true 1:1 environment for the car in terms of wind. If the car is showing 150 mph on the speedometer then you must also be blowing 150 mph wind directly into the car in a manner that directly represents the natural method of intake (ie: blowing a random "blast" of air on the car and justifying it by saying "our fan is powerful" does not cut it). If you ever see Dinan cars on Dynos, he has a large cloth "funnel" affixed to the fan and the other end to the front end of the car. Probably the closest representation of anyone.

2. Must also run the transmission 1:1. I don't fully understand how this works either but in short you cannot Dyno the US cars properly not matter what you do because of the speed limiter.

Here's the thing. Most guys buy a Dyno and run them on less advanced cars and all is well (in most cases-in others they don't even realize that it isn't). They own "repair" or "upgrade" shops (ie: they INSTALL performance parts-not manufacture or usually TRULY understand them. Most can't REALLY tell you if things like CAI, etc. work. They believe what they are told and install them). Then they get a car like an F10 and they think they know what they are doing. They strap it down, point some fans and off they go. Then you call them on it and they say "well, even if the ACTUAL numbers are not entirely accurate you can still compute GAINS by looking at before and after numbers (they assume that maybe both runs read "high" or "low" on the numbers and assume that they are equally inaccurate and assert that the difference can still be used to measure gains-WRONG!) The problem is that NONE OF THE DATA is anything more than "suspect" at best. BOTH numbers are flawed and they are never equally flawed. When I had my car Dyno'd, it was done by an EXTREMELY well-known and very smart tuner. He actually was data-logging (which VERY FEW do) while the car was on the Dyno and he immediately knew that "something is wrong". We were watching the car do random things with the throttling and had NO IDEA what was going on. We put another F1 on there to compare and it did the same thing. We data logged on the road and voila!-no craziness. Keep in mind that we were NOT looking for this. In fact, at the time I had none of this knowledge. I was just interested in getting the "real" hp/tq numbers for my car. It was only a few days AFTERWARD that I had the conversation that mentioned all of this and I went "hhhhmmmmmmm" NOW I get what was going on". These cars are smart and they KNOW when you put them on the Dyno. In fact, to prove what I was being told that day, my guy in the US, whose shop I was at that day having the conversation hooked my car up to the computer and there were a lot of codes. So there is another thing to be aware of. These "Dyno gurus" tell you not to worry about the lights on the dash that can appear during the Dyno and to drive a short distance and everything will disappear. They are correct. The lights on the dash disappear but the codes in the car do not. Now you have to find someone competent enough to completely rid your car of these.. How would you like to have your car go in for warranty service and these to appear? Not good.

Just consider these "Dyno" machines. The popular Dyno Jets in most of these shop looks pretty darn ancient. They were never created for these cars. In fact, unless you engine Dyno, you really need to use a Dyno that locks to your hubs. This eliminates the inevitable wheel slip that you get on all other Dynos.

btw...In the story of my car above, I had also run my car on another Dyno Jet at another shop two days before and got ENTIRELY different numbers. HHHmmmmmmmm....

Here is the thing. We get so hng up on "I got 30 more hp" and bs like this that we blow money and stress ourselves out and in the end we really don;t know WHAT we got (if anything). My take is that if you feel it in the good old butt Dyno then it was probably worth it. If not, it probably wasn't. Don't fool yourself into believing that "feel good" Dyno graph. It is meaningless.

Side note: I was told that the F10/12/13 Dyno manual is 26 pages. Must be lots you need to know BEFORE you put it on a machine and start charging people for what is effectively entertainment.

This is all fine and dandy...but the open hood issue would only explain LESS than expected HP...not more than expected.

My experience with Dynojets have been very consistent. In fact I dynoed at two separate ones in the same exact state of tune in my old CL65 and the results were within 1hp after SAE correction. On a car that put down 550whp that comes out to .2% deviation.

I will grant that people completely misuse dyno #'s. It is completely futile to compare numbers from one type of dyno to another...and laughable when they try to say "it did XXX on this Mustang dyno and would have put down XYY on a Dynojet". THe reality is you don't know what it will put down on a Dynojet until you actually strap it down and run on one. If the Dynojet is properly configured (which I don't believe there is much an operator can fiddle with), it does provide a decent reference to other Dynojet runs. How that relates to crank hp is once again debatable....and kind of futile to waste time "converting" whp #'s to crank ones.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Tom C

This is all fine and dandy...but the open hood issue would only explain LESS than expected HP...not more than expected.

How do you actually know this? I am not being crass in asking this (hate that inflection cannot be hear din typed word ;-). I ask because when watching mine run we saw the car doing BOTH upward and downward throttling. It was all over the place. I can guarantee you that just about ZERO people on here who post their Dyno sheets have ever seen any data logging done on their cars at all. Most operators do not do this, making things even more suspect.

Agreed 1000% on the comparing of different types of Dyno and also on the futility of computing crank to WHP. No one really seems to know with certainty the true loss ratio. I was also going to make a similar comment as yours about how people don't like the Mustang and Maha or Dyno Dynamics results so they run on the Dyno jet to be able to quote higher numbers.

Again, I am no expert. I am an info-marketer, not an engineer. But I think it is very easy to see that for the most part Dyno results are purely b.s. I definitely cannot speak to your comparison of a Merc because I know nothing about those cars and the Dyno. I am merely stating what was told to me about the BMW M cars. Let's also face it that you can Dyno a car in the evening and then wake up and Dyno it again and routinely get highly varied results.

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by Tom C

Thanks for posting!

They are showing the dyno run in STD correction...if they toggle the WinPEP software to SAE correction, it would probably show 5-10hp less. SAE correction takes into account the ambient weather conditions (barometric pressure, humidity and temperature). STD uses the same weather factors but also corrects for elevation which is a manual input by the dyno operator.

EAS's dyno is a strong reader but Tom is right- the readings are not corrected and in my case on the same dyno the numbers corrected were in the higher 530's. I have dyno'd my cars at EAS many times to get a perspective on before and after mods. Im sure there are cars which dyno less that are faster and there are cars that dyno more that are slower. The cars are all in within a range IMHO but not created equal. My best dyno was the M6 uncorreted at 561hp---

[Powerbeast]

Nice

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Tom C

This is all fine and dandy...but the open hood issue would only explain LESS than expected HP...not more than expected.

The unknown factor here being the word "expected"... What was your expectation based on? Factory numbers? We have strong reasons to believe that BMW operates with conservative worst case scenario HP and Torque numbers. Meaning that on a dyno that corrects all the worst case scenario factors, one definitely should get better numbers than "expected"...

Originally Posted by Tom C

My experience with Dynojets have been very consistent. In fact I dynoed at two separate ones in the same exact state of tune in my old CL65 and the results were within 1hp after SAE correction. On a car that put down 550whp that comes out to .2% deviation.

I believe the whole point with Coldlists post was that the F10 M5 have a specific procedure and hood open is one of the no no's. Any other car would not necessarily have that problem. It's not a unlikely that other cars might show consistent readings, but possibly the F10 M5 does not.

Possibly one of the best examples of documented strange behaviour on the dyno is reported here:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...no-tested.html

What wasn't normal and expected is the way the M5 behaved while on the dyno. Its power at high revs was anything but consistent. Each dyno pull showed less peak power than the prior one, a trend that was observed for eight consecutive pulls.

Heat-soaked intercooler, you might guess, and so did we. Nope. Immediately after the eighth pull — when the apparent heat soak would have been at its worst — all of the intercooler plumbing and heat exchangers were cool to the touch, suggesting the culprit was elsewhere.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The unknown factor here being the word "expected"... What was your expectation based on? Factory numbers? We have strong reasons to believe that BMW operates with conservative worst case scenario HP and Torque numbers. Meaning that on a dyno that corrects all the worst case scenario factors, one definitely should get better numbers than "expected"...




I believe the whole point with Coldlists post was that the F10 M5 have a specific procedure and hood open is one of the no no's. Any other car would not necessarily have that problem. It's not a unlikely that other cars might show consistent readings, but possibly the F10 M5 does not.

Possibly one of the best examples of documented strange behaviour on the dyno is reported here:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...no-tested.html

+1 on all points.

Yeah, we were feeling my intercoolers and could not believe how cool they were immediately after runs. It was like that car was never run at all and we are talking seconds afterward.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by ColdList

How do you actually know this? I am not being crass in asking this (hate that inflection cannot be hear din typed word ;-). I ask because when watching mine run we saw the car doing BOTH upward and downward throttling. It was all over the place. I can guarantee you that just about ZERO people on here who post their Dyno sheets have ever seen any data logging done on their cars at all. Most operators do not do this, making things even more suspect.

Agreed 1000% on the comparing of different types of Dyno and also on the futility of computing crank to WHP. No one really seems to know with certainty the true loss ratio. I was also going to make a similar comment as yours about how people don't like the Mustang and Maha or Dyno Dynamics results so they run on the Dyno jet to be able to quote higher numbers.

Again, I am no expert. I am an info-marketer, not an engineer. But I think it is very easy to see that for the most part Dyno results are purely b.s. I definitely cannot speak to your comparison of a Merc because I know nothing about those cars and the Dyno. I am merely stating what was told to me about the BMW M cars. Let's also face it that you can Dyno a car in the evening and then wake up and Dyno it again and routinely get highly varied results.

Well it would be beyond bizarre for the BMW engineers to increase power when the hood is open....as opposed to retarding timing and cutting boost when a safety issue arises. Would it make any logical sense for the engineers to increase boost and timing when the hood is open? If so, maybe I will fasten the hood without using the OEM "death hooks" to get some extra hp...

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The unknown factor here being the word "expected"... What was your expectation based on? Factory numbers? We have strong reasons to believe that BMW operates with conservative worst case scenario HP and Torque numbers. Meaning that on a dyno that corrects all the worst case scenario factors, one definitely should get better numbers than "expected"...




I believe the whole point with Coldlists post was that the F10 M5 have a specific procedure and hood open is one of the no no's. Any other car would not necessarily have that problem. It's not a unlikely that other cars might show consistent readings, but possibly the F10 M5 does not.

Possibly one of the best examples of documented strange behaviour on the dyno is reported here:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...no-tested.html

My expectations were based on how high the OP's dyno numbers are compared to other Dynojet numbers...especially to the many others done at EAS (same dyno) and considering he is completely stock, including the charcoal filters.

I get Coldlist's point about the dyno procedure....and like I said...it could explain some funky things happening on the dyno...but we shouldn't discount or dismiss the dyno numbers on a Dynojet just because the hood was open. Like I said before, if the car started throwing out 480hp on the Dynojet and the thottlee was acting up....then maybe the DME had enough of the open hood antics and went into party-pooping mode. But that doesn't appear to be the case with the results.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Tom C

Well it would be beyond bizarre for the BMW engineers to increase power when the hood is open....as opposed to retarding timing and cutting boost when a safety issue arises. Would it make any logical sense for the engineers to increase boost and timing when the hood is open? If so, maybe I will fasten the hood without using the OEM "death hooks" to get some extra hp...

That is not at all the point. BMW does NOT want the car on the Dyno. In Europe they have already declared indication of Dyno runs as a means for voiding warranty-officially. Logic would certainly tell us that the car would not be wired to run faster with the hood up. However, we can more logically assume that this affects the 1:1 wind ratio and/or triggers some other sensor to allow the DME to detect Dyno operation. Making assumptions is just speculation. Hard for me to deviate form my belief in what came from the engineer in Germany-especially having seen those DME variances previously on my own car in person.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by ColdList

That is not at all the point. BMW does NOT want the car on the Dyno. In Europe they have already declared indication of Dyno runs as a means for voiding warranty-officially. Logic would certainly tell us that the car would not be wired to run faster with the hood up. However, we can more logically assume that this affects the 1:1 wind ratio and/or triggers some other sensor to allow the DME to detect Dyno operation. Making assumptions is just speculation. Hard for me to deviate form my belief in what came from the engineer in Germany-especially having seen those DME variances previously on my own car in person.

It is hardly speculation when the car is putting down strong, actual numbers on a Dynojet dyno. As flawed as a Dynojet dyno is...there has to be some form of relative power forcing the rollers to spin in such a way to generate the power numbers. For instance a stock 638hp crank rated Corvette ZR1 will put down around 550whp on most Dynojets. So the OP's car is making VERY good hp...that shouldn't be controversial and certainly isn't speculation. Just because you had a "bad" experience with dynoing your car shouldn't cast a pall over every F10 M5 dyno run.

What BMW has to say about the dyno runs and warranty is completely beyond the point of this discussion

I can also see where maybe after repeated runs, it could cause the DME to stop the party and give some "bad data". But that doesn't appear to have happened in this instance.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Tom C

Just because you had a "bad" experience with dynoing your car shouldn't cast a pall over every F10 M5 dyno run..

Huh? My so-called "bad experience" was not the reason for my comments. What my car did during Dyno runs and data-logging simply VALIDATED what
BMW Engineers directly said. I am not sure how you can begin to argue with that. THEY PROGRAMMED THE CAR. The "speculation" was in your reasoning why the car would throttle back with the hood up.

Once again-you are not comparing apples to apples citing different cars. Much like my consecutive Dyno Jet runs were also not apples to apples. TOTALLY different results on the SAME type of machine in similar conditions and time of day. Also, the weirdness was validated by a SECOND F10 M5 that we ran back to back with mine on the Dyno Jet and on the street with the computer plugged in monitoring the data.

OK, this is turning into a discussion in which I am not qualified to really speak more towards, as I stated in my posts. I am RELAYING information and personal experience(s) that certainly backs up what was said. This should be for informational purposes only. I won't "guess" at why the cars does or does not do something. Believe what you wish. All good here.

[RPiM5]

But what if you had the hood closed and the trunk open during a dyno session? Would that result in a 50hp gain on the dyno???

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

But what if you had the hood closed and the trunk open during a dyno session? Would that result in a 50hp gain on the dyno???

If you had an RPI GT exhaust!-hahahahahahahaha!

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by ColdList

If you had an RPI GT exhaust!-hahahahahahahaha!

In your case, having the convertable top down with the F12 on the dyno would result in the dyno machine breaking due to prodigous power readings.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

In your case, having the convertable top down with the F12 on the dyno would result in the dyno machine breaking due to prodigous power readings.

Don't forget the carbon fiber exhaust tips on mine.

And isn't your car black with tinted windows? Easy 25+ hp on low relative humidity days.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Huh? My so-called "bad experience" was not the reason for my comments. What my car did during Dyno runs and data-logging simply VALIDATED what
BMW Engineers directly said. I am not sure how you can begin to argue with that. THEY PROGRAMMED THE CAR. The "speculation" was in your reasoning why the car would throttle back with the hood up.

Once again-you are not comparing apples to apples citing different cars. Much like my consecutive Dyno Jet runs were also not apples to apples. TOTALLY different results on the SAME type of machine in similar conditions and time of day. Also, the weirdness was validated by a SECOND F10 M5 that we ran back to back with mine on the Dyno Jet and on the street with the computer plugged in monitoring the data.

OK, this is turning into a discussion in which I am not qualified to really speak more towards, as I stated in my posts. I am RELAYING information and personal experience(s) that certainly backs up what was said. This should be for informational purposes only. I won't "guess" at why the cars does or does not do something. Believe what you wish. All good here.

Engineers at car companies sometimes bend the truth or outright lie to protect their product from abuse. An example is the head engineer at Nissan (Mizuno) claimed that the '09 GT-R did not have a "launch control" system...yet the press people were shown how to engage launch control through disabling traction control and enabling the proper procedures. When confronted with this Mizuno-san vehemently denied the existence of launch control and that the car was only allowed to disable traction control to get out of mud and snow and was not capable of launch control. It is funny though that for a banned thing..like dyno cars...they have a 26 page manual...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

But what if you had the hood closed and the trunk open during a dyno session? Would that result in a 50hp gain on the dyno???

It clearly says in the dyno procedure in paragraph 15 on page 12 that hood closed and trunk open leads to a venturi effect that causes the glove compartment to open and thereby the compartment light to illuminate and thereby reducing power to just 25hp!!!

That is elementary