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      10-19-2012, 06:51 PM   #67
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Which we don't get here in the US, a country accounting for 50% or global ///M sales...

Rumors are the next E63 AMG will be offered in AWD trim, and Audi has confirmed the next generation RS 6 will be hitting the US coasts, both of which are likely to take away a lot of M5 sales. Just sayin'...
The next Audi RS 6 is an Avant only. The US no longer receives the A6 Avant?
The RS 7 will face off against the M6 Gran Coupe which I am told is mind-blowing in handling and overall composure. I recently drove an A7 and for what it is I found it dynamically flawed compared to the 6er Gran Coupe.

The question was do you want more weight or less weight? and customers wanted less weight so plans for an xDrive M5 were dropped.
Demand is purely driven for rear wheel drive M cars if a customer wants AWD then it will be the BMW X5M and BMW X6M which in most markets with the need for all-wheel drive outsell their RWD bretheren.
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      10-19-2012, 07:39 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
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Which we don't get here in the US, a country accounting for 50% or global ///M sales...

Rumors are the next E63 AMG will be offered in AWD trim, and Audi has confirmed the next generation RS 6 will be hitting the US coasts, both of which are likely to take away a lot of M5 sales. Just sayin'...
The next Audi RS 6 is an Avant only. The US no longer receives the A6 Avant?
The RS 7 will face off against the M6 Gran Coupe which I am told is mind-blowing in handling and overall composure. I recently drove an A7 and for what it is I found it dynamically flawed compared to the 6er Gran Coupe.

The question was do you want more weight or less weight? and customers wanted less weight so plans for an xDrive M5 were dropped.
Demand is purely driven for rear wheel drive M cars if a customer wants AWD then it will be the BMW X5M and BMW X6M which in most markets with the need for all-wheel drive outsell their RWD bretheren.
And how about 2014 E63 AMG 4MATIC? The one with official 0-60 in 3.4 without Performance Package. We could be looking at an epic 3.0 second 0-60 time with Performance Package and and favorable ideal conditions.

If done properly and with all advantages, AWD competition will beat the vague "better handling" hands down. M5 F10 is already at the peak of RWD engineering and any more added power without AWD would have a lot of potential lost.

If next M5 is to succeed, it will have to have xDrive option.

Last edited by singularity; 10-19-2012 at 09:47 PM.
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      10-19-2012, 09:48 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Patsc23 View Post
My advisor actually is an enthusiast, thats why I chose to go over 60 miles away to buy from him. He drives an X6 with some substantial Dinan work done to it and has had bmw's his whole life. Turns out he is a fellow Boston College Eagle as well, although class of '74 versus my class of '98. My past sales guys have all been clueless, which is another reason I was willing to travel. I actually found him through his colleague, who was on this board until he went to sell AMGs (BMW1986).

I dont plan on waiting until the summer, I want out of my C63 in March when my warranty expires and going to Europe fall isnt possible with my wife's work and i have other trips in summer. Looking at the changes, if they even happen, it seems to be minimal imo. I can live with them, but still rolling the dice that changes are not drastic.
Nice to hear that you found yourself an enthusiast as a car salesman!

I believe the changes will be significant, not a complete changeover but significant enough to make the wait worth while (if waiting is an option).

At least with the F10 M5 LCI, you know you won't have an outdated M5 until at least 4-5 years. Even if a new 5 series comes out, the M5 will still be a year or 2 away from then.
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      10-19-2012, 09:51 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by singularity View Post
And how about 2014 E63 AMG 4MATIC? The one with official 0-60 in 3.4 without Performance Package. We could be looking at an epic 3.0 second 0-60 time with Performance Package and and favorable ideal conditions.

If done properly and with all advantages, AWD competition will beat the vague "better handling" hands down. M5 F10 is already at the peak of RWD engineering and any more added power without AWD would have a lot of potential lost.

If next M5 is to succeed, it will have to have xDrive option.
Well said!

Couldn't agree more! Hopefully BMW realizes this
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      10-19-2012, 09:51 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by SlammedM6 View Post
Nice to hear that you found yourself an enthusiast as a car salesman!

I believe the changes will be significant, not a complete changeover but significant enough to make the wait worth while (if waiting is an option).

At least with the F10 M5 LCI, you know you won't have an outdated M5 until at least 4-5 years. Even if a new 5 series comes out, the M5 will still be a year or 2 away from then.
Until then - feel the waiting torment
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      10-19-2012, 09:55 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by singularity View Post
Until then - feel the waiting torment
I'm not even 100% set on the F10 M5 yet, but if I do get it, I would only buy it through euro delivery and I wouldn't be able to do that until August next summer, so it puts me at a perfect time.
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      10-19-2012, 10:37 PM   #73
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With this LCI coming a year earlier in the F10's life, is there a possibility BMW will have another LCI before end of production of the F10?

Assuming the normal 7 year life, there will be 4 more model years for this chassis after this LCI.
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      10-19-2012, 10:43 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by InspireSiR View Post
With this LCI coming a year earlier in the F10's life, is there a possibility BMW will have another LCI before end of production of the F10?

Assuming the normal 7 year life, there will be 4 more model years for this chassis after this LCI.
I would say absolutely not...that would be a first for BMW and I would bet my left nut they won't do that. After this LCI (if not already), the next generation 5 series will begin its production and testing...
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      10-19-2012, 11:28 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The next Audi RS 6 is an Avant only. The US no longer receives the A6 Avant?
The RS 7 will face off against the M6 Gran Coupe which I am told is mind-blowing in handling and overall composure. I recently drove an A7 and for what it is I found it dynamically flawed compared to the 6er Gran Coupe.

The question was do you want more weight or less weight? and customers wanted less weight so plans for an xDrive M5 were dropped.
Demand is purely driven for rear wheel drive M cars if a customer wants AWD then it will be the BMW X5M and BMW X6M which in most markets with the need for all-wheel drive outsell their RWD bretheren.
Correct, the upcoming RS 6 will be an Avant (the one seen tested on the Ring, and yes, the US currently does not get an A6 nor A4 Avant, short of the A4 allroad), I was referring to the next generation of RS 6, as we were discussing where things are going and what that might mean for the upcoming M5 (6+ yrs from now). In that timeframe, the RS6 based on the then-current A6 platform will be out, and Audi has already confirmed that in such time span the US will already see pretty much the entire RS lineup. For the first time ever in the US we see 2 RS models sold side by side (RS 5 and TT RS, which btw is bumped in power only for the US market, so Audis claims to bring the full RS lineup seems credible).

So I was talking about the horizon when the next M5 is set to dawn upon us. The E63AMG already will be AWD as we see, the RS 6 will be around, and with the M5 likely to be pushing 600 or thereabouts, I really feel the limit of a RWD car with so much power and tq has been reached. Considering how 'important' 0-60mph times are for many North American folk and journalists, launching and hooking up that much power on a RWD platform becomes a monumental task, regardless of how many launch control or other features you aid the car with. It's pure physics. You may be surprised, but I still hear ppl asking the BMW dealers why the Panamera S posts better 0-60 times than the M5 despite being down on power (or the Tesla outdrags it, that's the winner ...)

I am all about weight reduction and a nimble chassis (one of main reasons I got the 1///M), but sadly we may not see this on the 5-series platform which with time is bound to get bigger and even more luxurious. Many journalists have even come out and said the F10 M5 is the best ///M 7-series BMW has ever made. I will be ordering a 'stripper' M5 (with the 20" wheels as they are lighter than the 19s) largely because I am concerned of its weight (and frankly I don't care for soft close doors and tech assistance gadgets that the average ///M driver shouldn't really need IMO). And yet it will come in tipping the scales near 4,400lbs. I wish BMW considers giving a CSL version of sorts for the M5 (as there was such a 'study' in the E60 M5 that never saw daylight). There are a lot of folks here that would compromise many extras in exchange for having a car hitting the scales sub 4,000 lbs.

The HP wars are getting out of hand, and that is mostly a byproduct of the added weight each new platform almost undoubtedly carries. Most I reckon would prefer a 500hp 3,900lb 5-series than a 600hp 4500lb one.

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Originally Posted by singularity View Post
And how about 2014 E63 AMG 4MATIC? The one with official 0-60 in 3.4 without Performance Package. We could be looking at an epic 3.0 second 0-60 time with Performance Package and and favorable ideal conditions.

If done properly and with all advantages, AWD competition will beat the vague "better handling" hands down. M5 F10 is already at the peak of RWD engineering and any more added power without AWD would have a lot of potential lost.

If next M5 is to succeed, it will have to have xDrive option.
Amen.

And as Porsche has shown, AWD does not always have to be vague.

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Originally Posted by InspireSiR View Post
With this LCI coming a year earlier in the F10's life, is there a possibility BMW will have another LCI before end of production of the F10?

Assuming the normal 7 year life, there will be 4 more model years for this chassis after this LCI.
No chance for an LCI twice in a car's lifetime, not been in BMW's dictionary, and for a good reason IMO.
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      10-20-2012, 08:05 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by ///M1 View Post
I am all about weight reduction and a nimble chassis (one of main reasons I got the 1///M), but sadly we may not see this on the 5-series platform which with time is bound to get bigger and even more luxurious.
I think that you're right on target here. The only area where I disagree is that the aura of the M5 has always been it's performance/luxury combination that doesn't compromise either (the E39 set the benchmark). For me, I want a luxurious daily driver that is also a beast. Admittedly, I want all the leather and a lot of the gadgets, but I want it in an sub-4000 pound car. To me, that should be the ultimate goal. And I think many of us would pay for it (just look at the cost of the Panamera).
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      10-20-2012, 12:35 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by hinckley View Post
I think that you're right on target here. The only area where I disagree is that the aura of the M5 has always been it's performance/luxury combination that doesn't compromise either (the E39 set the benchmark). For me, I want a luxurious daily driver that is also a beast. Admittedly, I want all the leather and a lot of the gadgets, but I want it in an sub-4000 pound car. To me, that should be the ultimate goal. And I think many of us would pay for it (just look at the cost of the Panamera).
Fully agree. I too share an ever lasting love with the E39 M5, as I had it for yrs until it became impractical to keep given its high maintenance costs. I agree at the 5-series level, there needs to be a balance between luxury and sportiness. New regulations (crash test/pedestrian/CAFE, etc.) are not helping a car in its weight loss efforts, in fact only adding to it. The development of alternate materials (CFRP, aluminum alloys, etc.) has either not kept pace, or still comes at a price that doesn't warrant its inclusion in the model (i.e. making it prohibitively expensive). With BMW's increased interest in a CFRP maker, I am hoping we get to see a lot of that roll into the ///M series.
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      10-22-2012, 12:54 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by SlammedM6 View Post
Nice to hear that you found yourself an enthusiast as a car salesman!

I believe the changes will be significant, not a complete changeover but significant enough to make the wait worth while (if waiting is an option).

At least with the F10 M5 LCI, you know you won't have an outdated M5 until at least 4-5 years. Even if a new 5 series comes out, the M5 will still be a year or 2 away from then.
Yea waiting just doesn't seem to be possible for me personally - timing it in March works out for so many reasons. If I were flexible would I wait, definitely, as I too like the latest and greatest. But knowing it could happen is half the battle, I know its coming so I can't really be too upset. Plus, as someone else mentioned, you cant spend your time constantly waiting, as something new is always coming along. I do disagree that BMW should change a car after just one production year in its biggest market.

Curious, are you going off a hunch when you say you believe the changes will be material or have you read otherwise. From what I've read so far, and nothing is official, it sounds like minimal changes to the F10 M5, unless I missed something. Perhaps LCI is fitted to regular F10s then not until 2015 for M5's, couldn't that be a possibility?
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      10-22-2012, 02:35 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Patsc23 View Post
Yea waiting just doesn't seem to be possible for me personally - timing it in March works out for so many reasons. If I were flexible would I wait, definitely, as I too like the latest and greatest. But knowing it could happen is half the battle, I know its coming so I can't really be too upset. Plus, as someone else mentioned, you cant spend your time constantly waiting, as something new is always coming along. I do disagree that BMW should change a car after just one production year in its biggest market.

Curious, are you going off a hunch when you say you believe the changes will be material or have you read otherwise. From what I've read so far, and nothing is official, it sounds like minimal changes to the F10 M5, unless I missed something. Perhaps LCI is fitted to regular F10s then not until 2015 for M5's, couldn't that be a possibility?
I've only read the same shit you've read probably...and I am also going by what we've seen in the past E60 LCI.

The E60 LCI just looked better, it looked newer and fresher (as it should) and today, anyone looking at used E60 M5 would be crazy not to opt for a 2008 ++ (LCI began in 2008). I think the changes will be similiar. Minor tweaks that sometimes make a big difference in the overall look!

And no shot that the regular F10 will recieve LCI, but the M5 only to receive it a year later. No way!
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      10-22-2012, 03:04 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by SlammedM6 View Post
I've only read the same shit you've read probably...and I am also going by what we've seen in the past E60 LCI.

The E60 LCI just looked better, it looked newer and fresher (as it should) and today, anyone looking at used E60 M5 would be crazy not to opt for a 2008 ++ (LCI began in 2008). I think the changes will be similiar. Minor tweaks that sometimes make a big difference in the overall look!

And no shot that the regular F10 will recieve LCI, but the M5 only to receive it a year later. No way!
Curious is there a good link to E60 pre-LCI comparo? I looked but couldnt find a good one, only saw one for the current 7er. I was awol during the e60-e90/92 run so was out of the loop.
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      10-22-2012, 11:07 PM   #81
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For the e60 LCI you could retrofit everything except for the interior changes. I had an 08 but my friend had an 07 modified to look identical to mine. We sold for almost the same price in the same year. An M5 is special and if you care for it well it can hold good value.
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      10-23-2012, 12:41 AM   #82
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For the e60 LCI you could retrofit everything except for the interior changes. I had an 08 but my friend had an 07 modified to look identical to mine. We sold for almost the same price in the same year. An M5 is special and if you care for it well it can hold good value.
The M5 can do what most other cars can only dream of....however it's ability to hold value is not one of them!!

In March 2011, my friend picked up a 2008 M5 (LCI), it had only 40000km on it. In service date was November 2008, the car was not even 2 1/2 years old when he bought it for under 50k. The car was loaded with everything except full leather (approx brand new msrp of 110k).

And he bought it from a dealer, not a friend or an auction. Also I should mention the car is a Canadian vehicle (early lease return). Not a US vehicle. Lastly, it was metallic black with black interior (not some undesirable ugly color combo).

And if you need further proof of this, just look at BMW residuals. Not only in Canada but even in the US with the F10.
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      10-23-2012, 11:47 AM   #83
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Curious is there a good link to E60 pre-LCI comparo? I looked but couldnt find a good one, only saw one for the current 7er. I was awol during the e60-e90/92 run so was out of the loop.
I put together a couple pics for ya

Most noticable changes would be:
The headlights - no orange in the corner and no daytime running light inside the smaller inner angel eye.
The bumper - because they removed the orange from the headlight, it was moved to the bumper (which anyone can paint or get rid of completely with a good body shop)
The tailights - LED Tails
The interior - different (nicer IMO) centre console where the seat heater buttons are. Best of all... much nicer and smaller steering wheel (also, option of heated steering wheel only in LCI, but thats obviously not relevant to the F10 as it already has this option)
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      10-23-2012, 11:58 AM   #84
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Good deal on the LCI E60 M5 is probably due to the fact the F10 M5 is already in the last stage of testing and production and available in Canada in March 2012. Thus, it does affect the price as dealer does not want to get stuck of the old M5. Make some $ better than make no $.
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      10-23-2012, 12:42 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlammedM6 View Post
I put together a couple pics for ya

Most noticable changes would be:
The headlights - no orange in the corner and no daytime running light inside the smaller inner angel eye.
The bumper - because they removed the orange from the headlight, it was moved to the bumper (which anyone can paint or get rid of completely with a good body shop)
The tailights - LED Tails
The interior - different (nicer IMO) centre console where the seat heater buttons are. Best of all... much nicer and smaller steering wheel (also, option of heated steering wheel only in LCI, but thats obviously not relevant to the F10 as it already has this option)
Nice comparo... but I think you are going to be slightly disappointed with the LCI if you are expecting big changes. I really don't care but I am confident the changes are the ones we are expecting and will not be light years ahead like the E60. Look at the F01 and that is what everyone is basing the expectation on (plus an upgraded steering wheel). Unlike the previous 5er/6er generation that had their own console, the F10 shares with the F01.. so just look at the new 7er and you are basically seeing the new F10.

We are half a year away so I guess we will all see
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      10-23-2012, 01:06 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by bobblehead View Post
Good deal on the LCI E60 M5 is probably due to the fact the F10 M5 is already in the last stage of testing and production and available in Canada in March 2012. Thus, it does affect the price as dealer does not want to get stuck of the old M5. Make some $ better than make no $.
If your responding to my post about my friend who picked up a 2008 M5 in March 2011. I can assure you it had nothing to do with the F10 M5 as it was still over a year away. If you know anything about car sales, you would know that a new model coming out in more then a year would have 0 effect on the purchase price of a used car at the time.
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      10-23-2012, 01:10 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by uhn2000 View Post
Nice comparo... but I think you are going to be slightly disappointed with the LCI if you are expecting big changes. I really don't care but I am confident the changes are the ones we are expecting and will not be light years ahead like the E60. Look at the F01 and that is what everyone is basing the expectation on (plus an upgraded steering wheel). Unlike the previous 5er/6er generation that had their own console, the F10 shares with the F01.. so just look at the new 7er and you are basically seeing the new F10.

We are half a year away so I guess we will all see
Oh ya.. I agree it won't be huge major changes. But they will be there and sometimes a bunch of small things can make a big difference... Either way. if I was is in the market for a new car today, I probably wouldn't wait either. But fact is, it works better for me next year so its perfect timing on my end.

But your right, we will see soon enough...
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      10-23-2012, 05:16 PM   #88
PatrickC23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlammedM6 View Post
I put together a couple pics for ya

Most noticable changes would be:
The headlights - no orange in the corner and no daytime running light inside the smaller inner angel eye.
The bumper - because they removed the orange from the headlight, it was moved to the bumper (which anyone can paint or get rid of completely with a good body shop)
The tailights - LED Tails
The interior - different (nicer IMO) centre console where the seat heater buttons are. Best of all... much nicer and smaller steering wheel (also, option of heated steering wheel only in LCI, but thats obviously not relevant to the F10 as it already has this option)
Awesome thanks - gives me a really good idea. If the F10 LCI is less than this, Im fine with it. If you hadnt pointed that all out it would have taken me a bit to figure out the differences. The interior Im not as worried about, as Im not into the M5 for the gadgets, but moreso the performance and looks on the exterior. I actually opted against the executive package bc most of the thing I didn;t want. I did add HUD though.

Heres to hoping for minimal changes, but my situation calls for an M5 in March so Im going for it.
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