Tuning, the real story...

[cpiguy]

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and just admit I don't get it. After over 20 year of tuning my cars, I honestly don't understand all the mystery about tuning the new F10. I'm in the technology business and deal with software encryption. I also understand that BMW and other manufacturers are getting much better at defending their code. What I don't understand is why there aren't clear and simple answers as to what can be done and what can't be done, and why the definitive gain associated with the various options is a moving target.

I've been following tune threads on the various forums for well over 6 months now, and have read everything from there is no possible way to break the code unless you buy the one and only tune out of Europe, to a host of piggy back tunes, to the Eurocharge tune which apparently is not a piggy back tune and does things like increase the red line/rev limiter and remove the top speed limiter. Then there's all the caution signs noted by very smart guys about increasing boost without modifying other significant engine factors causing over heating and possible catastrophe.

A variety of high quality tunes on Mercedes and GTR's have been around forever. We've all seen what they can do when calibrated correctly. So what hell the really gives???

I'm ready to spend 3 grand on a tune. With everything I've read, I wouldn't have a clue of who to spend my money with. There is no doubt that waiting for all this to shake out is the best answer, but I'm not a very patient guy and I know a lot of you aren't either.

I hope this thread might help us refine real data for real buyers.

TUNERS, PLEASE FREE TO STEP UP AND GIVE US YOUR VIEW, DETAILS OF WHAT YOU GOT, OR REASONS TO WAIT FOR WHAT YOU GOT COMING.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

[Protious]

Same boat I'm in, I'm willing to tune, but every corner I turn there are people yelling "it's a press file", or "increasing boost is stupid" (then why does everyone that currently has a tune, effectively do this!?).

I guess it comes down to patience, when the GTR first came out, Nissan pretty much declared it as "unbreakable" encryption - now all hell has broken loose. Matter of time before this happens to the F10 M5, especially considering how BMW flooded the N/A market with them. (surplus of 13's still in my area)

[Ezio]

this problem still plagues the M5 ? geez

[shady908]

GTR = MY2009
BENZ 5.5LV12 = MY2003
BENZ 5.5LV8TT = MY2012
BENZ 6.2LV8 = NO GOOD

We are "on par" for the tuning course. If we are here a year from now I would worry.

I opted to purchase now & have the tune for the entire course of my 3 years. (and possibly an updated MAP from my tuner) If you wait for the "optimal tune" you are 8-12 months out IMO.

Look at 335 - debuted in spring of 2006 as MY2007. The right tunes weren't out until end of 2007/early 2008. Most in that community will say 2008/2009 for the best ones.

500-520whp (what we have stock) is very good, I come from a world of build G35's (prev. version engine from GTR) with big turbos running only 15psi on pump gas making nearly 600whp. This requires free flowing exhausts/downpipes, DUAL PUMP FUELSYSTEMS, 1000cc injectors... 4 MPG. enough said.

Pony up and buy now, and enjoy, or wait. It is what it is...

[GOLFFRR]

I spoke with Roman@ESS a while on this topic and he clearly just stated that the car at this time is just to tough to tune. I am sure its just a matter of time before they finally figure it out. I wonder if moving forward all new BMW's are going to be this tough?

with the new turbo M3 and M4 I am wondering if tuners will run into the same issues with those platforms? Maybe we are in-barking into a new era of only being able to buy OEM tunes and upgrades and no longer having the option to go aftermarket. If this is the case then BMW can charge whatever they want and the consumer is stuck paying it.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by shady908

GTR = MY2009
BENZ 5.5LV12 = MY2003
BENZ 5.5LV8TT = MY2012
BENZ 6.2LV8 = NO GOOD

We are "on par" for the tuning course. If we are here a year from now I would worry.

I opted to purchase now & have the tune for the entire course of my 3 years. (and possibly an updated MAP from my tuner) If you wait for the "optimal tune" you are 8-12 months out IMO.

Look at 335 - debuted in spring of 2006 as MY2007. The right tunes weren't out until end of 2007/early 2008. Most in that community will say 2008/2009 for the best ones.

500-520whp (what we have stock) is very good, I come from a world of build G35's (prev. version engine from GTR) with big turbos running only 15psi on pump gas making nearly 600whp. This requires free flowing exhausts/downpipes, DUAL PUMP FUELSYSTEMS, 1000cc injectors... 4 MPG. enough said.

Pony up and buy now, and enjoy, or wait. It is what it is...

I disagree on the GT-R. Nissan claimed that the ECU was "untunable", yet Cobb cracked the codes well within the first year of production. Between the M5 and M6, the production numbers are much greater than for the GT-R and the Ms have been out for a year if you count Europe.

[shady908]

@cpiguy

You must not have a strong automobile background if you're comparing the electronics/computers of a Nissan vs. BMW

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by shady908

@cpiguy

You must not have a strong automobile background if you're comparing the electronics/computers of a Nissan vs. BMW

I think your choice of words was completely unnecessary and completely abrasive. Just because it is "just a Nissan" doesn't make the engineers any less capable. Especially when you consider those engineers created a car like the GT-R that has no business being as fast as it is around a track given its weight and power. I would question your "automotive pedigree" after such an inane comment....

[cpiguy]

First of all to shady908, I don’t claim to be an expert by an means, just an enthusiast that loves high performance cars. To that end, my post wasn't meant to be about why tuners haven't been able to break the code, but rather why there is so much confusion and mis-information about what is currently available. I’d like to see the points I make below answered, and in writing.

My point is simple. Even though waiting 6 months to a year will introduce many new options, why can’t we get the straight scope on what is currently available with the following details?

• How much net HP gain will be realized
• What other features will the tune provide, as in increase rev limiter
• Does the tune require additional mods to make the claimed WHP
• What potential risk may exist post tune
• How does one revert back when taking the car to BMW for service
• Will a reflash be necessary if BMW does an update to the ECU, as with my M3

Just yesterday someone was talking about the Eurocharged tune, which claims to provide a real tune increasing WHP by a net of 50 while at the same time removing the top speed limiter and increasing the rev limiter. Some people claim this isn’t accurate even though it’s on Eurocharged web site. All this being said, most smart guys on this forum say that no one in the US has cracked the code yet. I plan to call them myself today to verify what their real story is.

Just trying to figure out whats real and buy a safe tune with reasonable results.

[Protious]

Originally Posted by cpiguy

First of all to shady908, I don’t claim to be an expert by an means, just an enthusiast that loves high performance cars. To that end, my post wasn't meant to be about why tuners haven't been able to break the code, but rather why there is so much confusion and mis-information about what is currently available. I’d like to see the points I make below answered, and in writing.

My point is simple. Even though waiting 6 months to a year will introduce many new options, why can’t we get the straight scope on what is currently available with the following details?

• How much net HP gain will be realized
• What other features will the tune provide, as in increase rev limiter
• Does the tune require additional mods to make the claimed WHP
• What potential risk may exist post tune
• How does one revert back when taking the car to BMW for service
• Will a reflash be necessary if BMW does an update to the ECU, as with my M3

Just yesterday someone was talking about the Eurocharged tune, which claims to provide a real tune increasing WHP by a net of 50 while at the same time removing the top speed limiter and increasing the rev limiter. Some people claim this isn’t accurate even though it’s on Eurocharged web site. All this being said, most smart guys on this forum say that no one in the US has cracked the code yet. I plan to call them myself today to verify what their real story is.

Just trying to figure out whats real and buy a safe tune with reasonable results.

Let me know if you're able to get any information about that.. I've been trying to get a hold of them for around 4 days now.. (excluding weekends)

[boots]

I agree w cpi

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by shady908

@cpiguy

You must not have a strong automobile background if you're comparing the electronics/computers of a Nissan vs. BMW

Are you referring to BMW having Bosch, Siemens etc electronic components and Nissan having mainly Denso (or other Japanese) components? The ECU on the GT-R is made by Hitachi. Xenon ballast control units on BMW are made by Mitsubishi. Just to mention how manufacturers "shop around"...

Ever wonder why different auto manufacturers have such similar equipment etc? It's because most of the electronic equipment like night vision, electric handbrake, engine electronics etc, etc isn't developed and manufactured by BMW, MB, Audi, Ford etc. It's companies like Bosch that develop the stuff, sometimes in close cooperation with the manufacturer, sometimes on their own.

How they program the ECU and encryption is obviously down to the manufacturer, but they work with what they get from Bosch etc.

So, are you implying that Denso/Japanese electronic equipment is inferior to Bosch, Siemens etc?

[IND-Distribution]

Some of the difficulty you may be experiencing in getting detailed information is because many folks claiming to have software for the F10 M5 are offering sub-standard solutions.

Many are using optional development files installed through the BMW interface, and are not actually able to edit or modify the behavior of the M5. Some others are using secondary computers which modify signals inbound to the M5's DMEs, tricking the car into generating more boost than the factory setting.

Note that the most proven tuners in the industry continue to hold off on releasing performance software- Dinan, ESS, and others have said that while solutions are in the works, no tune is available now. That is the only honest answer a reputable tuner can give.

[M54ccibo]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

Some of the difficulty you may be experiencing in getting detailed information is because many folks claiming to have software for the F10 M5 are offering sub-standard solutions.

Many are using optional development files installed through the BMW interface, and are not actually able to edit or modify the behavior of the M5. Some others are using secondary computers which modify signals inbound to the M5's DMEs, tricking the car into generating more boost than the factory setting.

Note that the most proven tuners in the industry continue to hold off on releasing performance software- Dinan, ESS, and others have said that while solutions are in the works, no tune is available now. That is the only honest answer a reputable tuner can give.

And that, is the real deal holyfield.

[greentrbo95gst]

Originally Posted by Ilia@IND

Some of the difficulty you may be experiencing in getting detailed information is because many folks claiming to have software for the F10 M5 are offering sub-standard solutions.

Many are using optional development files installed through the BMW interface, and are not actually able to edit or modify the behavior of the M5. Some others are using secondary computers which modify signals inbound to the M5's DMEs, tricking the car into generating more boost than the factory setting.

Note that the most proven tuners in the industry continue to hold off on releasing performance software- Dinan, ESS, and others have said that while solutions are in the works, no tune is available now. That is the only honest answer a reputable tuner can give.

You hit the nail on the head

[shady908]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Are you referring to BMW having Bosch, Siemens etc electronic components and Nissan having mainly Denso (or other Japanese) components? The ECU on the GT-R is made by Hitachi. Xenon ballast control units on BMW are made by Mitsubishi. Just to mention how manufacturers "shop around"...

Ever wonder why different auto manufacturers have such similar equipment etc? It's because most of the electronic equipment like night vision, electric handbrake, engine electronics etc, etc isn't developed and manufactured by BMW, MB, Audi, Ford etc. It's companies like Bosch that develop the stuff, sometimes in close cooperation with the manufacturer, sometimes on their own.

How they program the ECU and encryption is obviously down to the manufacturer, but they work with what they get from Bosch etc.

So, are you implying that Denso/Japanese electronic equipment is inferior to Bosch, Siemens etc?

Actually Xenon ballast control units have nothing to do with whats at hand. But thanks for your very in-depth knowledge, you definitely know more than myself about the sourcing of these unimportant technical parts for cars. There's a great subforum for you to flex this knowledge but its probably not under Engine/Exhaust/Drivetrain.

So to stay on topic, what I am saying is that ANY automobile manufacturer is capable of making a car that is really powerful. The quality, integrity, and standards of BMWs are higher than a Nissan, in absolutely every aspect. It's not JUST a Nissan, sure, but a Supra isn't JUST a Toyota. What they are is just another jap attempt to try and churn out a high powered street racer. Congratulations to Nissan they did that, but if anyone bought their "uncrackable" ECU story, then you're quite gullible.

And @CPIGUY: I completely understand what it is you are looking for & was not trying to take a "shot" at you, its just that people seem to be quite fed up already, when in all reality we got everything we were looking for with the new platform M. Yet people seem to not be that happy, it makes me a little sick. Lets wait, and obviously badger some tuners and we will definitely get what we are looking for!
As a side note to your bullet points, we won't know how much power/risk etc. until some people blow some engines. Not many people are going to be willing to do that.

[greentrbo95gst]

[Rob///M5]

Originally Posted by shady908

Actually Xenon ballast control units have nothing to do with whats at hand. But thanks for your very in-depth knowledge, you definitely know more than myself about the sourcing of these unimportant technical parts for cars. There's a great subforum for you to flex this knowledge but its probably not under Engine/Exhaust/Drivetrain.

So to stay on topic, what I am saying is that ANY automobile manufacturer is capable of making a car that is really powerful. The quality, integrity, and standards of BMWs are higher than a Nissan, in absolutely every aspect. It's not JUST a Nissan, sure, but a Supra isn't JUST a Toyota. What they are is just another jap attempt to try and churn out a high powered street racer. Congratulations to Nissan they did that, but if anyone bought their "uncrackable" ECU story, then you're quite gullible.

And @CPIGUY: I completely understand what it is you are looking for & was not trying to take a "shot" at you, its just that people seem to be quite fed up already, when in all reality we got everything we were looking for with the new platform M. Yet people seem to not be that happy, it makes me a little sick. Lets wait, and obviously badger some tuners and we will definitely get what we are looking for!
As a side note to your bullet points, we won't know how much power/risk etc. until some people blow some engines. Not many people are going to be willing to do that.

I think you're still digging a deeper hole. BTW - welcome to the group. Way to go with your antagonistic 8th post on the forum.

[boots]

@ shady. Not everyone has what they want in the new M platform so your statement is incorrect. That's why we talk about having a tune. That's why most of us have spent thousands in upgrades to enhance our experience and are willing to shell out more when a proper tune arrives.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by shady908

Actually Xenon ballast control units have nothing to do with whats at hand. But thanks for your very in-depth knowledge, you definitely know more than myself about the sourcing of these unimportant technical parts for cars. There's a great subforum for you to flex this knowledge but its probably not under Engine/Exhaust/Drivetrain.

YOU brought up the issue of electronics And which parts are "important" that set BMW apart from all the others. Funny how some make big statements, but then attacks and ridicules when someone questions it

My examples was just to point out that components in the electrical system are not made by the manufacturer, but by suppliers. You make very bold claims, but no evidence of what sets BMW electronics apart from others. Auto electrics are "just" wiring, connectors, sensors and electronic control units (like ECU).

So what sets the BMW M5 electrics apart from the GT-R? Quality of the wiring, connectors, sensors or the ECU?

To me, your comments implies you have no deeper knowledge about cars...

[greentrbo95gst]

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by greentrbo95gst