Delivery of first F10 M5 with M Carbon Ceramic Brakes (with full tech training info)

[dreamspeed]

Never having to change the rotors and 100k miles before having to change the rotors seems as audacious a claim as saying some of their fluids are "lifetime fill."

[Codevo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Liu

Total off topic but - are you actually Darude? Mr. Sandstorm?

It was only a matter of time.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Darude

Just got the car back after the run in service. The car now sounds amazing, more pops and crackles especially when lifting off and changing down from 2nd to 1st. Interestingly the technician confirmed that during the run in service the turbos are not at full boost and after the run in service is deactivated the turbos are at max boost pressure.

Ok, for everyone that has a negative impression of the CCB's... My onboard service says that the discs never need replacing and last the lifetime of the car and the brake pads need changing in 100,000 miles! Now opting for these brakes isn't everyones choice, but for such a heavy and powerful car with the style of cross European driving I do with monthly track sessions these brakes are more than worth it for me. I wonder how many people have ever driven cars with 2nd or 3rd gen CCB?

The 23 kilo weight saving which is importantly unsprung makes a sizeable difference to the handling of the car. For me spending the money on the CCB was a no brainer but spending £3700 on the B&O system made no sense on a drivers car as I rarely use the stereo when driving.

Each to their own thats why we all have differently specced and coloured M5's!

Fair play, enjoy

[Scrippy]

Originally Posted by mdh

You could pay someone $20 to clean your wheels (and your whole car) every week for 5 years and you'd still have money in your pocket and a better brake system for the street if you went with the steel brakes.

I didn't see a loss of braking. There is not really any brake dust on my rims. They also don't make any noise. My stock brakes would squeal all the time and it annoyed me. This ceramic setup is way better at reducing brake fade as well. Anyone who says ceramic pads and rotors aren't worth the money is high!! No dust, no noise and increased heat tolerance.... I fail to see a problem here.

[bavarian19]

If someone wanted to spend the money on CCB, why not? Some people scoff at the fact that someone would pay extra for the CCB, but would go spend 7k+ on other mods like wheels, exhaust and cosmetic stuff which is just as much of a waste from a 'performance' perspective.

If you think the CCB is a waste of money, what about the Akra full exhaust? 20 inch forged wheels and tires? $3k for a good coilover kit? All just as much of a waste if your going to say the M5 was never a true performance car to begin with. How many people commend others for spending money on those mods?

[mdh]

Originally Posted by Boss330

To quote Porsche on the key benefits of CCB:



CCB is an option on ALL Porsche Cayenne models. Another prime example of a car that does CCB brakes justice. Heavy car that generates a lot of heat under braking. A lightweight car does not "need" the CCB brakes in the same way that a heavy car does. And, remember that in Germany you tend to do a LOT of braking when driving on the Autobahn (if you want to drive at high speeds). My car generates more brake dust on a weekend at the autobahn than I do for several weeks at regular roads.

I'm sure progress is allways met with scepticism and new products often need some time before being accepted. Just like when the smart touch screen products came out. Lot of people did not want that technology and preferred the old school products. Steel brake discs are heavy, heat up, warp and generate fade (they are not all that bad, but just to make a point ). Yes, you can improve braking with even bigger discs. But then again you also increase unsprung weight (the biggest enemy to your suspension and steering)...

The stopping distance is also claimed to be better. Probably because there is better friction and heat resistance. Resulting in a better/quicker response during ABS braking and therefore also shorter stopping distance.

Cost is obviously a very valid argument for not choosing the CCB. But I wouldn't agree that it's a bad choice if you have the money. It's better technology, increases braking performance and decreases stopping distance and not least, they are half the weight. IMHO it's just like choosing between the best and most expensive tires or taking a cheaper brand to save some money.

Your statements about steel brakes being 'heavy, heat up, warp and fade' don't have anything to do with purchasing and enjoying the M5 on the street. You'll never drive the M5 on the street hard enough to generate any significant brake fade or warping, and if they're so 'heavy', why do 90% of the Porsches I race with prefer to use them instead of the ceramics?

Carbon ceramic brakes on the other hand do affect your purchase and enjoyment of the M5 on the street. They are incredibly expensive, fragile, noisy, give poor pedal feel, and don't brake well when cold. There is absolutely no difference in stopping distance, but you can't modulate them as well as steel, especially when cold. I know a number of Porsche owners that ordered the ceramics and won't do so again.

It's true that ceramics will last one heck of a lot longer. My E60 M5 steel brakes lasted over 50,000 miles with a number of track sessions. For the price of the ceramics, you could run for 500,000 miles on steel brakes. But yes, if you're willing to pay almost $10K to get rid of brake dust, these are the ticket.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by mdh

Your statements about steel brakes being 'heavy, heat up, warp and fade' don't have anything to do with purchasing and enjoying the M5 on the street. You'll never drive the M5 on the street hard enough to generate any significant brake fade or warping, and if they're so 'heavy', why do 90% of the Porsches I race with prefer to use them instead of the ceramics?

Carbon ceramic brakes on the other hand do affect your purchase and enjoyment of the M5 on the street. They are incredibly expensive, fragile, noisy, give poor pedal feel, and don't brake well when cold. There is absolutely no difference in stopping distance, but you can't modulate them as well as steel, especially when cold. I know a number of Porsche owners that ordered the ceramics and won't do so again.

It's true that ceramics will last one heck of a lot longer. My E60 M5 steel brakes lasted over 50,000 miles with a number of track sessions. For the price of the ceramics, you could run for 500,000 miles on steel brakes. But yes, if you're willing to pay almost $10K to get rid of brake dust, these are the ticket.

How many Porsche Cayennes do you race on the street? If you re read my post my comment was about the Cayenne

If you are correct about the CCB on the M5 being noisy, give poor pedal feel and don't brake well when cold, why hasn't the OP commented on that. It seems his impressions don't match your opinion of them... And I find it hard to believe that BMW, Porsche etc. offers such bad CC brakes on the M5 and Cayenne that the regular customer would never put up with them???

As someone said previously; Why do people spend 3k on a coil over kit and $$ on 21" rims, when you will never drive the M5 on the streets in a manner that makes those changes necessary either?

I don't know if you have done extensive driving on the German Autobahn? If you do, you will appreciate that you work the brakes really hard if you are driving fast (and remember you can drive fast legally and for long periods, with quite heavy braking for traffic ahead). Just the amount of brake dust from a few days at the autobahn would be a good reason to get CCB.

But the main benefit of CCB, on a street car, is reduction of unsprung weight of around 50%. If people are willing to spend big dollars on lightweight wheels, it's strange that wanting to spend money on a BETTER and lighter braking system should stir so much controversy

[mdh]

Originally Posted by Boss330

How many Porsche Cayennes do you race on the street? If you re read my post my comment was about the Cayenne

If you are correct about the CCB on the M5 being noisy, give poor pedal feel and don't brake well when cold, why hasn't the OP commented on that. It seems his impressions don't match your opinion of them... And I find it hard to believe that BMW, Porsche etc. offers such bad CC brakes on the M5 and Cayenne that the regular customer would never put up with them???

As someone said previously; Why do people spend 3k on a coil over kit and $$ on 21" rims, when you will never drive the M5 on the streets in a manner that makes those changes necessary either?

I don't know if you have done extensive driving on the German Autobahn? If you do, you will appreciate that you work the brakes really hard if you are driving fast (and remember you can drive fast legally and for long periods, with quite heavy braking for traffic ahead). Just the amount of brake dust from a few days at the autobahn would be a good reason to get CCB.

But the main benefit of CCB, on a street car, is reduction of unsprung weight of around 50%. If people are willing to spend big dollars on lightweight wheels, it's strange that wanting to spend money on a BETTER and lighter braking system should stir so much controversy

Check out all the threads (over 50) on the main Porsche forum on squeaking ceramic brakes and then decide if you think they're better. As far as the Cayenne ceramics go, here is one of dozens of posts on this subject:

I have a 2009 Cayenne GTS with 22,000 miles. I bought the GTS in San Francisco, and last year I moved to Greenwich, CT. I’ve taken the GTS to the Greenwich dealership (New Country Porsche) once so far for regular scheduled maintenance and at that time informed my service advisor that the brakes squeaked very badly (especially at low-speeds, between 3-5 MPH)!


My SA told me that the brake squeaking is “Normal” and it cannot be fixed. He also blamed my wife (it’s her car) for driving the car in such a way where it actually is causing the brakes to squeak…claiming that she doesn’t apply enough brake pressure and a build-up of brake dust and grime is forming on the disks/calipers which is causing the problem. That explanation is complete crap! Granted, my wife is not an aggressive driver, she drives the GTS very normally. She applies a normal amount of brake pressure for regular normal driving. In addition, I drive the GTS quite a bit on weekends, and quite often, I find myself applying heavy brake pressure.

The SA told my wife to slam on the brakes every now and then to get rid of the problem. We tried that, but the brakes still squeak very badly!

I’m wondering if anyone else on the forum has this same problem, and if their dealerships have been able to fix the problem….or are they getting the same BS lip-service like we are getting? I’m sorry, but I don’t accept that when you pay $92,000 for an SUV that it’s “normal” to have embarrassingly squeaky brakes!

The GTS is going back to New Country Porsche for service in two weeks (BTW, they only have old Volkswagen Jettas as their loaner cars at New Country…..WTF???). I am going to insist that something be done to remedy the brake squeaking problem…..any advice from you guys would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks in advance!

[pyramid]

Nice car OP, always wanted to owned one of the M someday.

Agreed on your view for ceramic brake, I have them on my 991. Compared one without PCCB (exact same spec'ed car) and the benefits are HUGE, especially for street use (more comfort).
Spool a lot faster, much less bouncy feel suspension/handling, cornering feels a lot lighter, better ride comfort, and last but not least no brake dust and rust.
For tracking, the benefit is clear, the only thing holding back is replacement/maintenance cost as I can see.

Latest generation CCB requires no warm up even after soaked in water from washing car.
Squeaking only when cold? A lot less than what my steel F10 brake do, maybe due to weight differences.

[Boss330]

mdh: It's NO problem finding people complaining about stuff. Just go on ANY internet community and you will find people complaining on anything from the colour of the sun to the amount of tire squeal when cornering hard in their Yugos

Brake squeak has been improved on CCB and my steel braked F10 squeals like crazy during cold weather climate at low speeds (it's actually embarassing at times).

CCB has some huge benefits that has been posted by others here that actually have CCB on their cars. If they were THAT bad, strange that Ferrari has them as std equipment on their cars and that Porsche has had no recalls or lawsuits.

Regardless, the OP is happy with his car and choice of brakes. That's what counts and best of luck to him and I wish him as much enjoyment as he can have with his car

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by pyramid

Nice car OP, always wanted to owned one of the M someday.

Agreed on your view for ceramic brake, I have them on my 991. Compared one without PCCB (exact same spec'ed car) and the benefits are HUGE, especially for street use (more comfort).
Spool a lot faster, much less bouncy feel suspension/handling, cornering feels a lot lighter, better ride comfort, and last but not least no brake dust and rust.
For tracking, the benefit is clear, the only thing holding back is replacement/maintenance cost as I can see.

Latest generation CCB requires no warm up even after soaked in water from washing car.
Squeaking only when cold? A lot less than what my steel F10 brake do, maybe due to weight differences.

Other than the brake booster which is different, looks like CCB can be retro fitted to any M5/M6. I ownder if this would be a cheaper option than speccing from new? I prefer the Blue calipers anyway

[vladberca]

I don't know if anyone that posted negative comments about CCB have actually driven a car equipped with this kind of brakes

[Darude]

Today I washed the car myself for the first time, full 15 mins power wash and BMW cleaning products. Drove the car after and needed to dab the brakes 2/3 times to get bite and then they were fine, but interestingly no brake squeal or noise.

Tomorrow, I'm driving through France and Switzerland covering 1500kms, so will be able to report back on some European extended super fast driving.

Last night after the run in service I let the beast rip, and while I wont put speeds on here, I can say that with sport plus on everything and full shift speed we hit the limit a few times, all I can say is wow... The power of this thing is mind blowing. I also managed one launch (had to be tried after it was enabled!) Boom.

It is interesting, in the US you love the expensive and sexy after market wheels, the carbon splitters, roof, lowered springs and full phat exhausts, which do look in the most parts amazing, the actual benefits to the driving experience are minimal, like some of the posts before me say, in the grand scheme, the CCB brake option isn that expensive for the multiple added benefits, after all, why do we buy such cars??? M5's have and always will be proper blokes driving machines that are respected in ways that Ferrari's, Porshce's and Lambo's are not. The everyday super car, so why not make it the best version it can be.

Who fancies meeting up in Germany for a race? Then we can decide if the CCB's are good value!

[M5007]

Originally Posted by Mr. Liu

Total off topic but - are you actually Darude? Mr. Sandstorm?

Hahaha

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Darude

Today I washed the car myself for the first time, full 15 mins power wash and BMW cleaning products. Drove the car after and needed to dab the brakes 2/3 times to get bite and then they were fine, but interestingly no brake squeal or noise.

Tomorrow, I'm driving through France and Switzerland covering 1500kms, so will be able to report back on some European extended super fast driving.

Last night after the run in service I let the beast rip, and while I wont put speeds on here, I can say that with sport plus on everything and full shift speed we hit the limit a few times, all I can say is wow... The power of this thing is mind blowing. I also managed one launch (had to be tried after it was enabled!) Boom.

It is interesting, in the US you love the expensive and sexy after market wheels, the carbon splitters, roof, lowered springs and full phat exhausts, which do look in the most parts amazing, the actual benefits to the driving experience are minimal, like some of the posts before me say, in the grand scheme, the CCB brake option isn that expensive for the multiple added benefits, after all, why do we buy such cars??? M5's have and always will be proper blokes driving machines that are respected in ways that Ferrari's, Porshce's and Lambo's are not. The everyday super car, so why not make it the best version it can be.

Who fancies meeting up in Germany for a race? Then we can decide if the CCB's are good value!

+1

In reality, a lot of the times the mods you listed make the car worse handling and slower around a track... Just look at some European magazines test of a modified M5's lap time compared to a std...

[iksenna]

Originally Posted by mdh

Check out all the threads (over 50) on the main Porsche forum on squeaking ceramic brakes and then decide if you think they're better. As far as the Cayenne ceramics go, here is one of dozens of posts on this subject:

I have a 2009 Cayenne GTS with 22,000 miles. I bought the GTS in San Francisco, and last year I moved to Greenwich, CT. I’ve taken the GTS to the Greenwich dealership (New Country Porsche) once so far for regular scheduled maintenance and at that time informed my service advisor that the brakes squeaked very badly (especially at low-speeds, between 3-5 MPH)!


My SA told me that the brake squeaking is “Normal” and it cannot be fixed. He also blamed my wife (it’s her car) for driving the car in such a way where it actually is causing the brakes to squeak…claiming that she doesn’t apply enough brake pressure and a build-up of brake dust and grime is forming on the disks/calipers which is causing the problem. That explanation is complete crap! Granted, my wife is not an aggressive driver, she drives the GTS very normally. She applies a normal amount of brake pressure for regular normal driving. In addition, I drive the GTS quite a bit on weekends, and quite often, I find myself applying heavy brake pressure.

The SA told my wife to slam on the brakes every now and then to get rid of the problem. We tried that, but the brakes still squeak very badly!

I’m wondering if anyone else on the forum has this same problem, and if their dealerships have been able to fix the problem….or are they getting the same BS lip-service like we are getting? I’m sorry, but I don’t accept that when you pay $92,000 for an SUV that it’s “normal” to have embarrassingly squeaky brakes!

The GTS is going back to New Country Porsche for service in two weeks (BTW, they only have old Volkswagen Jettas as their loaner cars at New Country…..WTF???). I am going to insist that something be done to remedy the brake squeaking problem…..any advice from you guys would be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks in advance!

That's funny, I had the same issue on my previous TT back in 08 or 09. The senior tech-service mgr told me the same BS about the normality of the brakes squealing. And boy, did they squeal. It was embarassing pulling up to lights and hearing the squealing. My resolution was to ditch the TT. A solution was not provided and that was the end of my first and last Audi purchase. Good luck...

[Judah]

A friend of mine has been driving a F13 with CC brakes here in the U.S. for a few months now. He's even had the opportunity to drive a non CC F13 back to back with a CC equipped F13.

He told me the overall feel of the car while driving is smoother, no brake squeal at all, (slow speed or cold) he didn't feel a difference in the pedal whatsoever and absolutely no brake dust.

It's definitely an option I would include.... I just wish I could get them with the blue, black or red calipers.

[Bimmer6]

I have 2500 miles and not one squeal what so ever. A good power wash may solve the issue brake dust accumulation?

[mdh]

Originally Posted by Bimmer6

I have 2500 miles and not one squeal what so ever. A good power wash may solve the issue brake dust accumulation?

It's fundamental to the design of ceramic brakes. Some people have significant problems - certainly if you live in 'high humidity' situations, or ever drive at slow speeds when it's wet. From the BMW technical manual:

"at low speed and cautious braking an audible sound may occur with wet M Carbon ceramic brakes or in the case of high humidity. This is due to the current design of the M Carbon ceramic brakes."

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by mdh

It's fundamental to the design of ceramic brakes. Some people have significant problems - certainly if you live in 'high humidity' situations, or ever drive at slow speeds when it's wet. From the BMW technical manual:

"at low speed and cautious braking an audible sound may occur with wet M Carbon ceramic brakes or in the case of high humidity. This is due to the current design of the M Carbon ceramic brakes."

Just as my steel braked F10 does also when the climate is wet and cold (and my E60 did the same)

Doesn't really help if "by design" steel brakes should be quiet, when they aren't. And if these guys doesn't experience brake squeal, good for them

[Frosty]

..I was washing my car yesterday and if I had unlimited funds i'd get the ceramic just so I dont have to deal with brake dust..

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Boss330

But the main benefit of CCB, on a street car, is reduction of unsprung weight of around 50%. If people are willing to spend big dollars on lightweight wheels, it's strange that wanting to spend money on a BETTER and lighter braking system should stir so much controversy

I 100% agree with this. I would always buy CCB before I buy aftermarket wheels. Especially since BMW M wheels are lightweight forged wheels to start with.