Would you buy Off Lease M5?

[dgbos]

Coming from e92 and thinking about 14 M5. Never have bought pre-owned. Looking at one with all options and 20k miles and CPO. It is a 2 year lease return. I am reluctant because lease driver may not care about break-in, premium gas, etc. The CPO is reassuring. Thoughts?

[E90potentialbuyer]

Originally Posted by dgbos

Coming from e92 and thinking about 14 M5. Never have bought pre-owned. Looking at one with all options and 20k miles and CPO. It is a 2 year lease return. I am reluctant because lease driver may not care about break-in, premium gas, etc. The CPO is reassuring. Thoughts?

I think it's a much higher risk to buy a pre-owned M5. I have leased my M5 but I am double minded about buying it out at the end of lease. So my car is absolutely babied - followed everything in the manual for break-in, don't do brush washes (only brush less), hand wax the car etc etc. I know plenty of people who have leased who don't do this. This car has a crap tonne of electronics and they are complicated - for example today as the temperatures dropped, I got a low air pressure warning in all 4 tires. I drove the car 3 miles without filling air, and then engine over heating light came on (could not find a gas station with a working air machine). My temperature in car was fine (25% of max temperature). So these cars can have gremlins and without absolutely knowing that car was babied and properly cared for, I would not touch a used M5 even with CPO. Given these cars are fairly complicated, you need a really good mechanic at the shop who can fix it else you will be availing the CPO warranty fair bit to get sticky problems resolved should you get one.

[dgbos]

thanks for the feedback. Not sure I want to lay down $100k for a car so maybe a new M3 is a better choice than a used M5.

[E90potentialbuyer]

Originally Posted by dgbos

thanks for the feedback. Not sure I want to lay down $100k for a car so maybe a new M3 is a better choice than a used M5.

Leasing maybe the way to go on M5. Lookup the buy vs lease calculator that I put up in one of the threads. If you intend on holding on to the car for a while (longer than 3-4 years) then perhaps you should buy. But check it out.

M3 is not a bad option either ...

[Misfired Cylinder]

Originally Posted by E90potentialbuyer

I think it's a much higher risk to buy a pre-owned M5. I have leased my M5 but I am double minded about buying it out at the end of lease. So my car is absolutely babied - followed everything in the manual for break-in, don't do brush washes (only brush less), hand wax the car etc etc. I know plenty of people who have leased who don't do this. This car has a crap tonne of electronics and they are complicated - for example today as the temperatures dropped, I got a low air pressure warning in all 4 tires. I drove the car 3 miles without filling air, and then engine over heating light came on (could not find a gas station with a working air machine). My temperature in car was fine (25% of max temperature). So these cars can have gremlins and without absolutely knowing that car was babied and properly cared for, I would not touch a used M5 even with CPO. Given these cars are fairly complicated, you need a really good mechanic at the shop who can fix it else you will be availing the CPO warranty fair bit to get sticky problems resolved should you get one.

That makes no sense. Tire pressure have got nothing to do with engine overheating unless you are having coolant issues, oil pressure issues, or some other issues.

But I disagree with you.

Cars are cars. The problem is not every driver is as knowledgeable and knows about these cars. Spark plugs, pads, differential fluids, coolants, etc. Or checking paint depth to see if any of the panels were touched. Bottom line is, you have to be an educated buyer.

Whether a car is leased and a dealer bought it from an auction and sold it to you vs you walk in and buy a car that someone had bought (financed) and traded in makes absolutely no difference. There are cars that are babied and are problem free for 50-60,000 miles and then suddenly they have so many problems that you end up paying more for repairing them than they are worth at the time. Then there are cars that are just problem child from day one.

Take the E9X M3 for example. The rod bearings. There are cars that are absolutely problem free and are strong at 150k miles. Owners drive the crap out of them and they change oil only every 15k miles. Terrible huh? Then there are cars that are completely babied, oil changed every 5000 miles, sent to the lab for lead analysis, etc, guess what, the engine grenades at 42k miles. Then what? Its those drivers who know how rod bearing works, who is able to replace them on their own OR know shops around and understand the process so that they change the bearings to coated ones early enough that will have a good night sleep.

It is all about the owner and the driver. Cars like M5s are not meant to be owned, beyond warranty period, unless you are a handy person. Period. You need to inspect the car in and out every chance you get and understand how it runs and why it runs the way it does. Understand the fuel injectors, fuel pressure, trims, MAF sensors, list goes on and on. This is not the car for you if you just want to press the start button and drive off and come park the next day and repeat. If you are that kind of a person, then your chances are 50/50, but I'd say you are playing with fire. Be it CPO, or lease return with no warranty, makes no difference. CPO is only good for 2 years anyways, then what are you supposed to do after 2 years?

M cars have never been easy long time keepers and they never will be. They require you, as the owner, to proactively diagnose the issues, address them to some degree, and follow through. If you are not one of those, then you have 2 choices:

a) Lease a new car every 4 years and pretty much spend thousands of dollars over the course of 10,20,30 years and at the end have nothing to show for.
b) There is no option b!

[E90potentialbuyer]

Originally Posted by Misfired Cylinder

That makes no sense. Tire pressure have got nothing to do with engine overheating unless you are having coolant issues, oil pressure issues, or some other issues.

But I disagree with you.

Cars are cars. The problem is not every driver is as knowledgeable and knows about these cars. Spark plugs, pads, differential fluids, coolants, etc. Or checking paint depth to see if any of the panels were touched. Bottom line is, you have to be an educated buyer.

Whether a car is leased and a dealer bought it from an auction and sold it to you vs you walk in and buy a car that someone had bought (financed) and traded in makes absolutely no difference. There are cars that are babied and are problem free for 50-60,000 miles and then suddenly they have so many problems that you end up paying more for repairing them than they are worth at the time. Then there are cars that are just problem child from day one.

Take the E9X M3 for example. The rod bearings. There are cars that are absolutely problem free and are strong at 150k miles. Owners drive the crap out of them and they change oil only every 15k miles. Terrible huh? Then there are cars that are completely babied, oil changed every 5000 miles, sent to the lab for lead analysis, etc, guess what, the engine grenades at 42k miles. Then what? Its those drivers who know how rod bearing works, who is able to replace them on their own OR know shops around and understand the process so that they change the bearings to coated ones early enough that will have a good night sleep.

It is all about the owner and the driver. Cars like M5s are not meant to be owned, beyond warranty period, unless you are a handy person. Period. You need to inspect the car in and out every chance you get and understand how it runs and why it runs the way it does. Understand the fuel injectors, fuel pressure, trims, MAF sensors, list goes on and on. This is not the car for you if you just want to press the start button and drive off and come park the next day and repeat. If you are that kind of a person, then your chances are 50/50, but I'd say you are playing with fire. Be it CPO, or lease return with no warranty, makes no difference. CPO is only good for 2 years anyways, then what are you supposed to do after 2 years?

M cars have never been easy long time keepers and they never will be. They require you, as the owner, to proactively diagnose the issues, address them to some degree, and follow through. If you are not one of those, then you have 2 choices:

a) Lease a new car every 4 years and pretty much spend thousands of dollars over the course of 10,20,30 years and at the end have nothing to show for.
b) There is no option b!

Well the light was on. And after tire pressure was fixed, it went away. Have driven it a fm fair bit yesterday and today since filling air - no issues. Which goes to my point that these cars have really complicated electronics.

Anecdotally and from my ownership of a few BMW's (including M3) these cars will show you if they are a trouble child early on. I usually keep my cars for a very long time (this is my first lease), and that has been my experience. So at least for BMW's or cars with complicated electronics, I would not buy a used one. Your experience may have been different and it's entirely possible but I won't touch a used M. For that matter, I won't buy a M5 sitting on a lot with miles on it either. I test drove a M6 and a M5 at a NJ dealership where both had about 90+ miles on them. Salesman took me on a 5+ mile test drive and the moment he fired it up, redlined it. Then he drove like a maniac without waiting to warm up the car. Next time, went with my bud, and we went on a 15+ mile test drive in a convertible M6. Salesman asked him to push it hard! You may want to flip the coin on a car like that, but for my needs that's too high a risk.

Agreed whether the car comes in from an auction or off a dealer lot it doesn't matter.

Sure if you have time and want to grease up and fix every little thing yourself - buy a used one and potentially save money. When you are working 70-90 hour weeks and have a family, I have other priorities for spending my leftover time.

Leasing in a car like this makes perfect sense. Look up the buy vs lease that I put up.

[shellbmb]

Originally Posted by dgbos

Coming from e92 and thinking about 14 M5. Never have bought pre-owned. Looking at one with all options and 20k miles and CPO. It is a 2 year lease return. I am reluctant because lease driver may not care about break-in, premium gas, etc. The CPO is reassuring. Thoughts?

Not sure of your time frame, but you could always troll this forum for people coming off lease or selling outright. That way you at least know who owned it prior. Not sure how easy it is to purchase from someone coming off lease though. I'm sure the dealer could figure it out.

[Misfired Cylinder]

Originally Posted by E90potentialbuyer

Well the light was on. And after tire pressure was fixed, it went away. Have driven it a fm fair bit yesterday and today since filling air - no issues. Which goes to my point that these cars have really complicated electronics.

Anecdotally and from my ownership of a few BMW's (including M3) these cars will show you if they are a trouble child early on. I usually keep my cars for a very long time (this is my first lease), and that has been my experience. So at least for BMW's or cars with complicated electronics, I would not buy a used one. Your experience may have been different and it's entirely possible but I won't touch a used M. For that matter, I won't buy a M5 sitting on a lot with miles on it either. I test drove a M6 and a M5 at a NJ dealership where both had about 90+ miles on them. Salesman took me on a 5+ mile test drive and the moment he fired it up, redlined it. Then he drove like a maniac without waiting to warm up the car. Next time, went with my bud, and we went on a 15+ mile test drive in a convertible M6. Salesman asked him to push it hard! You may want to flip the coin on a car like that, but for my needs that's too high a risk.

Agreed whether the car comes in from an auction or off a dealer lot it doesn't matter.

Sure if you have time and want to grease up and fix every little thing yourself - buy a used one and potentially save money. When you are working 70-90 hour weeks and have a family, I have other priorities for spending my leftover time.

Leasing in a car like this makes perfect sense. Look up the buy vs lease that I put up.

It's not about saving money. I am also leasing a 120k car. I don't work 90 hrs/week, but I also do a lot of 60-70 hrs/week. I have a family as well.

The way you are describing "redlining" these cars and driving them hard indicates to me that these kinds of things bother you. Cars are meant to be driven hard. In fact, the turbo BMWs with direct injection, in particular, must be driven extremely hard if you do indeed want to keep your car for a long time. Ever heard about carbon build up? Do you have any idea how the inside of the valves and cylinder heads will look like on your car in mile 5000, 10,000, and 30,000? I recommend you loosen one of the clamps of your intake and pop the intake pipe and take a look at your turbo inlet. You'll probably see lots of oil there. That oil and carbon build up, will ruin your engine. You'll have at a minimum 8-10% power loss by year 1 and while that will not increase linearly, it will increase at some pace until to the point you are going to have a lot of other, more permanent issues.

There, now you think you are driving this 120-130k delicate car, but in reality, the more you treat the car that way and have that mentality, the more you will actually be hurting it.

The way you should drive these cars is constantly on Sport+, on S3, never below 4000 rpm, and several (in my case dozens) of times redlining everyday. I hardly use 6th gear and never use 7th gear. I never use D modes and never efficient.

Especially 3rd gear pulls to the redline coupled with coasting at high rpms on 4th gear is the key.

My car has almost 15,000 miles. Before this I had 2xM5s, 2xM3s, 2x335is over the past 7-8 years. None of these cars, not once, burnt 1 liter of oil between oil change intervals (always 7k miles). Ask yourself now why? You know the first thing I do in my cars when I buy them (and I always buy them new, less than 10 miles on the odometer)? Redline them on 2nd (don't want to do 1st gear right away as that puts too much strain on a new transmission and differential) and 3rd, back to back, for at least 100 miles. You are not doing any favors to the car by driving it like an old lady for 1200 miles. Those guidelines are strictly written because of liability reasons and safety reasons. There are components in these cars that need to be babied in the first 1200 miles. Transmission and differential as well as wheel bearings. BMW cannot be in the business of writing a 2 page "proper" break-in guideline, so instead they make a blanket statement that says "don't do X Y and Z". Well, hate to break this to you, but it's wrong. Any car person who understands about these cars, the way engines are built, the way the car is put together, tolerances, compression, etc knows that the first 100 miles of any new engine is extremely important and you cannot and should not drive in low revs.

I have done this on every one of my cars, non M ones as well. The next thing I do is burnishing the brakes, that makes such a big difference as well. Lastly, after the 1200 mile service (after differential fluid is flushed), you want to make sure you hammer the differential very well.

These cars are not that delicate. They are not space shuttles either.

The only thing that would make me walk away from a used car is if it had damage (accident). Anything else, scratched wheels, bumper, etc, all of that stuff is cosmetic, and will happen to your car, mine, and anyone else's if you drive it everyday and keep it long enough.

[E90potentialbuyer]

Originally Posted by Misfired Cylinder

It's not about saving money. I am also leasing a 120k car. I don't work 90 hrs/week, but I also do a lot of 60-70 hrs/week. I have a family as well.

The way you are describing "redlining" these cars and driving them hard indicates to me that these kinds of things bother you. Cars are meant to be driven hard. In fact, the turbo BMWs with direct injection, in particular, must be driven extremely hard if you do indeed want to keep your car for a long time. Ever heard about carbon build up? Do you have any idea how the inside of the valves and cylinder heads will look like on your car in mile 5000, 10,000, and 30,000? I recommend you loosen one of the clamps of your intake and pop the intake pipe and take a look at your turbo inlet. You'll probably see lots of oil there. That oil and carbon build up, will ruin your engine. You'll have at a minimum 8-10% power loss by year 1 and while that will not increase linearly, it will increase at some pace until to the point you are going to have a lot of other, more permanent issues.

There, now you think you are driving this 120-130k delicate car, but in reality, the more you treat the car that way and have that mentality, the more you will actually be hurting it.

The way you should drive these cars is constantly on Sport+, on S3, never below 4000 rpm, and several (in my case dozens) of times redlining everyday. I hardly use 6th gear and never use 7th gear. I never use D modes and never efficient.

Especially 3rd gear pulls to the redline coupled with coasting at high rpms on 4th gear is the key.

My car has almost 15,000 miles. Before this I had 2xM5s, 2xM3s, 2x335is over the past 7-8 years. None of these cars, not once, burnt 1 liter of oil between oil change intervals (always 7k miles). Ask yourself now why? You know the first thing I do in my cars when I buy them (and I always buy them new, less than 10 miles on the odometer)? Redline them on 2nd (don't want to do 1st gear right away as that puts too much strain on a new transmission and differential) and 3rd, back to back, for at least 100 miles. You are not doing any favors to the car by driving it like an old lady for 1200 miles. Those guidelines are strictly written because of liability reasons and safety reasons. There are components in these cars that need to be babied in the first 1200 miles. Transmission and differential as well as wheel bearings. BMW cannot be in the business of writing a 2 page "proper" break-in guideline, so instead they make a blanket statement that says "don't do X Y and Z". Well, hate to break this to you, but it's wrong. Any car person who understands about these cars, the way engines are built, the way the car is put together, tolerances, compression, etc knows that the first 100 miles of any new engine is extremely important and you cannot and should not drive in low revs.

I have done this on every one of my cars, non M ones as well. The next thing I do is burnishing the brakes, that makes such a big difference as well. Lastly, after the 1200 mile service (after differential fluid is flushed), you want to make sure you hammer the differential very well.

These cars are not that delicate. They are not space shuttles either.

The only thing that would make me walk away from a used car is if it had damage (accident). Anything else, scratched wheels, bumper, etc, all of that stuff is cosmetic, and will happen to your car, mine, and anyone else's if you drive it everyday and keep it long enough.

The break in period clearly states not to exceed 5xxx rpm's and 100mph for the first 1200 miles. That's what I was referring to about the salesman abusing the car with 90+ miles on it. If you don't follow that, to each his own. I have followed the recommended break ins for my car and they have been just fine. At 2,900 miles and no extra oil used. Same with my E90 M3 when I had it. Don't confuse that with not driving the M5 hard. Makes sense?

At the end of the day it's your money and if you are comfortable buying a used M car, then you do that and that's your opinion. I value my time with family much more and don't have time to spend on a broken down car during the week or weekends. No need to argue over this. If you want to discuss further PM me.

[Misfired Cylinder]

Originally Posted by E90potentialbuyer

The break in period clearly states not to exceed 5xxx rpm's and 100mph for the first 1200 miles. That's what I was referring to about the salesman abusing the car with 90+ miles on it. If you don't follow that, to each his own. I have followed the recommended break ins for my car and they have been just fine. At 2,900 miles and no extra oil used. Same with my E90 M3 when I had it. Don't confuse that with not driving the M5 hard. Makes sense?

At the end of the day it's your money and if you are comfortable buying a used M car, then you do that and that's your opinion. I value my time with family much more and don't have time to spend on a broken down car during the week or weekends. No need to argue over this. If you want to discuss further PM me.

Regarding your engine overheating issue, I would highly recommend checking the oil level as well as oil cap or drain plugs. There can be a leak somewhere. I have never heard about S63TU overheating. I wouldn't look at that issue lightly.

And yes, to each his own.

Just to point out the obvious it if weren't clear, I actually have not bought a used BMW in my life before. Every one of my BMWs have been brand new. All I have been trying to do is to point out how misinformed you are regarding redlining them or being harsh to them. Redlining cars don't hurt them, neither does turning traction control off and hammering the pedal. And no cars are not human beings such our loved ones like our kids or wives, they are just cars! And yes SAs and techs at a dealership will sit on our precious seats with greasy pants and will put 20 miles extra on them for a joyride. Fact of life. They are just cars and they will be fine And sure some people will come here and make threads about them and complain and make it sound like they were assaulted! First world problems

A used car that was redlined 10 times a day but was properly maintained and owned by its first owner will last a lot longer than the one that was bought brand new but driven on D1 and 1800 rpm on the highway 80% of the time. I drive my cars so hard, but at the same time I change the oil 2x more, change the differential fluid, spark plugs at extra intervals, clean my air filters, and so on. So now is my car more likely to break?

Again to each his own. I buy my cars new simply because I get bored of them and want to get out of them NOT because I don't trust buying a used car and that I am afraid they will break. I am also not saying I will keep this car beyond the lease end neither I am stating that I am trying to save money. What I am stating is sort of orthogonal to what you are saying.

Anyways, cheers!

[E90potentialbuyer]

Originally Posted by Misfired Cylinder

Regarding your engine overheating issue, I would highly recommend checking the oil level as well as oil cap or drain plugs. There can be a leak somewhere. I have never heard about S63TU overheating. I wouldn't look at that issue lightly.

And yes, to each his own.

Just to point out the obvious it if weren't clear, I actually have not bought a used BMW in my life before. Every one of my BMWs have been brand new. All I have been trying to do is to point out how misinformed you are regarding redlining them or being harsh to them. Redlining cars don't hurt them, neither does turning traction control off and hammering the pedal. And no cars are not human beings such our loved ones like our kids or wives, they are just cars! And yes SAs and techs at a dealership will sit on our precious seats with greasy pants and will put 20 miles extra on them for a joyride. Fact of life. They are just cars and they will be fine And sure some people will come here and make threads about them and complain and make it sound like they were assaulted! First world problems

A used car that was redlined 10 times a day but was properly maintained and owned by its first owner will last a lot longer than the one that was bought brand new but driven on D1 and 1800 rpm on the highway 80% of the time. I drive my cars so hard, but at the same time I change the oil 2x more, change the differential fluid, spark plugs at extra intervals, clean my air filters, and so on. So now is my car more likely to break?

Again to each his own. I buy my cars new simply because I get bored of them and want to get out of them NOT because I don't trust buying a used car and that I am afraid they will break. I am also not saying I will keep this car beyond the lease end neither I am stating that I am trying to save money. What I am stating is sort of orthogonal to what you are saying.

Anyways, cheers!

I think you are just dreaming things now bud. No where did I say not to drive the car hard. Go read the post again - maybe then it will be clear? If BMW tells you to follow a break-in, i am going to stick to it and being the manufacturer, they know a thing or two about the car. After the break-in was over, I have driven it hard (safely in the right setting instead of being a maniac on the road or driving with summer tires in winter ;-) ). And I follow full maintenance. This has served me well. Unlike you, I have kept my cars for very long time (7+ years for both M and non-M cars with the oldest having 97k miles). Besides regular maintenance, they have been just fine! Can't make it anymore clear to you bud.

Enjoy your car in good health and be safe.

[NlckyBlack]

Originally Posted by Misfired Cylinder

a) Lease a new car every 4 years and pretty much spend thousands of dollars over the course of 10,20,30 years and at the end have nothing to show for.
b) There is no option b!

Cars are meant to be enjoyed, it's not a appreciating asset like a house for instance. If you want something to show for all your money after 30 years put it in the bank and drive a ten thousand dollar daily driver. But thats not fun and life is short to drive a boring car each day.