Definative Methanol Injection Power Increase

[allmotor_2000]

Meth on the charge pipes as we do it doesn't really impact IAT's as much as we think. There is a little more consistency on extreme cases of back to back to back - I noticed the ice tank helped way more for heat soak than meth. On the S63tu it's for fueling. When the DME realizes HPFP is losing it or injectors are at max DC it compensates on timing and other engine parameters. Adding meth (or other supplemental fuel) allows everything to run in the intended zone for a given boost target.

At a given load condition (say 25-26psi) the delta of 100% meth addition is 60-70hp. It's so large because you really shouldn't be running 25-26psi without the supplemental fueling.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

Meth on the charge pipes as we do it doesn't really impact IAT's as much as we think. There is a little more consistency on extreme cases of back to back to back - I noticed the ice tank helped way more for heat soak than meth. On the S63tu it's for fueling. When the DME realizes HPFP is losing it or injectors are at max DC it compensates on timing and other engine parameters. Adding meth (or other supplemental fuel) allows everything to run in the intended zone for a given boost target.

At a given load condition (say 25-26psi) the delta of 100% meth addition is 60-70hp. It's so large because you really shouldn't be running 25-26psi without the supplemental fueling.

Let me know next time you in Taiwan again, sorry couldn't meet up last time. Still would love to pick your brain on tuning the M5.

[financenick]

Originally Posted by Msizzle

i agree, must be a troll

You guys are calling me a troll for saying that water injection add's extra horsepower, that's not very nice !!

Just forget meth tuning for a moment, why do you think the M5 adjusts and compensates boost levels for hot days compared to cold, as on a cold day it makes more power due to lower IAT, and on a hot day it has to run more boost to keep power outputs continually the same - this is not complex to follow, the cooler the air, the denser the boost, and the less heat exchange power robbed.

The New M4 gets 49 extra BHP from cooler air temps here with just water spray: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/31/b...h-mass-market/

YOUR BASICALLY SAYING WATER INJECTION DOESN'T WORK unless you tune it, which is ignorance on a new level for me - but hey you guys know best

Im just a troll - lol

[financenick]

Originally Posted by ur20v

P.S Msizzle is spot on and repeating what I have said.

You will actual loose power by running extra rich from Meth and probably get missfires from sooting or flooding the plugs, so don't cry because we told you.

Hang on, it gets better - now using meth could end up loosing me power, has anyone told AEM or Aquamist this, they may need to know their systems dont work.... until you use a few extra pounds of boost that is - lol

Fools !!!

[financenick]

Originally Posted by ur20v

We are on the same page, meth/water injection won't add power but my stop you losing power from cooking the engine or poor fuel quality.

What are you talking about, Mike started by saying: "Meth makes a huge difference" are you telling him he's wrong too?

[KMORGSM5]

Meth is roughly 116 octane, with 50/50 mix meth and water you will get increased octane and SOME cooling properties. There is a reason why people do it running at higher psi, because it works.

[allmotor_2000]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Let me know next time you in Taiwan again, sorry couldn't meet up last time. Still would love to pick your brain on tuning the M5.

I will be there Feb 14-16

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by allmotor_2000

I will be there Feb 14-16

Great, I will be in Taipei.

[ur20v]

Originally Posted by financenick

What are you talking about, Mike started by saying: "Meth makes a huge difference" are you telling him he's wrong too?

Definately a troll. Try reading my posts again. Do a dyno in 'normal' cool conditions then add water/meth - you will either have no difference or lose power from an over rich mixture or even missfires from swamped plugs. Do a dyno run in hot/heat soak conditions and all you do is restore the power lost by the heat and pulling timing.

You need to add something to gain something... air(Boost), fuel (petrol and or Meth), spark (ignition advance) AND all in the correct ratio

[ur20v]

Originally Posted by KMORGSM5

Meth is roughly 116 octane, with 50/50 mix meth and water you will get increased octane and SOME cooling properties. There is a reason why people do it running at higher psi, because it works.

Correct, the critcal part of your staement is "at high psi", at OEM levels it adds nothing other than keeping OEM power levels, boost and ignition at optimum OEM levels.

If your car produces 560WHP in standard trim (no timiming pull or boost reductions) on the dyno add meth and at best you will be still at 560WHP.

[financenick]

Its just logic that an increased boost pressure will have an increased effect when using water or meth, but does not mean that standard boost will get no results whatsoever.

I'll do a dyno run with meth on, then meth off and show you the figures to argue over.

By the way, Mike did clearly state below: (is he a troll too)

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Meth makes a huge difference particularly on tuned cars with raised boost pressure,

[Msizzle]

the added octane of meth will only help IF there is a timing advantage to be had. Look at a car that is made to run on 87, 93 won't make extra power in that car on its stock tune. Now if boost is increased at some point you will also increase cylinder pressure and temperature so you will start needing more and more octane to allow for the additional boost safely. And again the cooling effect in NORMAL conditions will be minimal (5-10hp maybe) so therefore not worth the installation of a meth kit. if you are on a road coarse for 30min and its 100deg outside it will increase power significantly to the original stock number

[Msizzle]

Originally Posted by financenick

You guys are calling me a troll for saying that water injection add's extra horsepower, that's not very nice !!

Just forget meth tuning for a moment, why do you think the M5 adjusts and compensates boost levels for hot days compared to cold, as on a cold day it makes more power due to lower IAT, and on a hot day it has to run more boost to keep power outputs continually the same - this is not complex to follow, the cooler the air, the denser the boost, and the less heat exchange power robbed.

The New M4 gets 49 extra BHP from cooler air temps here with just water spray: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/31/b...h-mass-market/

YOUR BASICALLY SAYING WATER INJECTION DOESN'T WORK unless you tune it, which is ignorance on a new level for me - but hey you guys know best

Im just a troll - lol

buddy what don't you understand ? that m3 is TUNED for the water spray!The spray doesn't add the power, what the car does while it is activated adds the power, add the exact kit on a non gts and you won't get the same 49hp.

Why are you so determined to proof meth with nothing pays? Nobody buys a meth kit for an otherwise stock car

[allmotor_2000]

Originally Posted by Phatcat

Great, I will be in Taipei.

Me too - will PM you

[financenick]

Originally Posted by Msizzle

buddy what don't you understand ? that m3 is TUNED for the water spray!The spray doesn't add the power, what the car does while it is activated adds the power, add the exact kit on a non gts and you won't get the same 49hp.

Why are you so determined to proof meth with nothing pays? Nobody buys a meth kit for an otherwise stock car

You don't need a specific tune for just water injection, as no timing difference due to same octane being used. However the cooling effect on the boost, within the engine/pistons and the entire combustion process was obviously enough that Bosch and BMW joined together and factory fitted water injection to one of their cars, but your saying flat out it just doesn't work under these conditions which i strongly disagree with.

Whats annoyed me more, is you and your little mate calling me a troll for having an opinion. Ive been involved with tuning 25 years, but meth is reasonably new to me, but using alot of research and common sense allows me to form an opinion at this stage.

Also our ECU's will adjust automatically for meth (if used) to some degree when its detected anyway, as these ECU's are intelligent compared to other cars. This was also confirmed when we visited Richard (the owner of Aquamist) for a whole day last year in December to discuss option with my car, and walk round his factory.

Can you tell me how your the authority on water injection please? if you have extensive experience id be a fool not to listen to you, but it sounds like you just enjoy an argument - which you've got !!

[ur20v]

The little mate is an automotive engineer, worked for manufactures direct, worked for race teams, started out as a master tech for a couple of marques inc BMW, Audi and Saab (all have a long and strong history with turbo charging), helped design and build race cars and bikes and been around tuning, turbos and water/meth injection specifically including runing Richards systems since the mid 90's so have a 'limited knowledge' learned on road, track and dyno's lol!

Heres a couple quotes BMW on the M4 GTS:

allowing the turbocharged engine to operate with higher boost pressure and earlier spark timing. The result is increased power and torque

"provide the M4 GTS's engine with higher turbocharger boost pressure than that used by the standard M4"

Do your research and dynos and continue to have your own opinion, we will have ours.

[financenick]

blah blah blaghhhh, i thought you would have said he was responsible for inventing turbos and meth, ill just have to prove this on the dyno live on camera, then come back to you and the BMW expert !!

[MrPowell]

You will see more power on a complete stock car with a methanol kit on the follow up pulls on the dyno. That is when you will see the increase on power over a car without it. Basically you are stopping the ecu from taking timing out for IAT. On the car without meth after the first pull it's going to start making less and less because the way their IAT vs Timing tables are set.

This scenario is basically if you are talking back to back pulls without any cooldown between them.

The slight chance of making more power would be if the ecu adapts to the extra octane. You may pick up 10-15hp because I'm sure their margins for adaption aren't + or - 10* of timing.

With anything that adds boost whether it be a piggyback or a flash, yeah it will gain more power, esp since the factory intercoolers suck. Cooler air charge is always better. Plus the added octane level from a 50/50 mix allows the car to have that extra timing with boost from the adaption.

Don't see the point of the guys argument that it's going to add gobs of power on a completely stock car. It'll help it be consistent without long cooldowns which yes is super nice. Then maybe a few extra HP if you run 50/50, 100%, etc. if you get lucky and the car adapts every pull the same way.

[financenick]

Mike seems to have the right idea below,
I have a tune, DP's, air filters, gearbox flash, soon to be larger turbos etc etc, im not stock at all, but somehow ended up in a stock argument, its just opinion opinions galore !!

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Meth makes a huge difference particularly on tuned cars with raised boost pressure

[financenick]

Originally Posted by MrPowell

You will see more power on a complete stock car with a methanol kit on the follow up pulls on the dyno. That is when you will see the increase on power over a car without it. Basically you are stopping the ecu from taking timing out for IAT. On the car without meth after the first pull it's going to start making less and less because the way their IAT vs Timing tables are set.

This scenario is basically if you are talking back to back pulls without any cooldown between them.

The slight chance of making more power would be if the ecu adapts to the extra octane. You may pick up 10-15hp because I'm sure their margins for adaption aren't + or - 10* of timing.

With anything that adds boost whether it be a piggyback or a flash, yeah it will gain more power, esp since the factory intercoolers suck. Cooler air charge is always better. Plus the added octane level from a 50/50 mix allows the car to have that extra timing with boost from the adaption.

Don't see the point of the guys argument that it's going to add gobs of power on a completely stock car. It'll help it be consistent without long cooldowns which yes is super nice. Then maybe a few extra HP if you run 50/50, 100%, etc. if you get lucky and the car adapts every pull the same way.

Appreciate this

[Msizzle]

Originally Posted by financenick

Appreciate this

I don't get it, this is exactly what we have been saying, I said a gain of maybe 5-10hp which is minimal at this power level, other than that it will help keep the power thats already there but again NO HUGE GAIN. I got 60whp more on meth because it aloud me to run 3more psi on my tune

[ur20v]

Could keep this up but its pointless.. this troll is now saying he is going to prove makes power on a tuned car and confirm what we have all been saying.

Originally Posted by financenick

blah blah blaghhhh, i thought you would have said he was responsible for inventing turbos and meth, ill just have to prove this on the dyno live on camera, then come back to you and the BMW expert !!