02-15-2011, 08:44 AM | #89 | |||
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02-15-2011, 08:56 AM | #90 |
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The thing is... The current 2011 Alpina B7 uses the 6 speed automatic from the previous generation 7 series because the engineers at Alpina, who are contracted through BMW, claimed it was uncertain/not likely the 8 speed would hold the torque.
So is this a built 8 speed auto trans? I don't think M will ditch DCT and manual transmissions aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Also, The X5M/X6M actually has a heavier drivetrain then the next gen M5, and there is a much harsher energy (torque) shock through the transmission on an AWD launch vs. RWD which further makes me believe DCT is still in the works
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02-15-2011, 09:15 AM | #91 |
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I don t know if M5 really needs a MT. It is the size of the car which will "tell" u that an AT is the better way.
An MT is a must for the M3 1M & M3 are track cars! M5, M6, X5 M & X6M are just very fast cruisers! |
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02-15-2011, 09:17 AM | #92 |
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interesting, I guess we will just have to wait and see but lets hope that this theory of having only one option and that being automatic doesn't trickle down to every M car.
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02-15-2011, 09:27 AM | #93 |
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First of all to all the purists out there. We DON'T PAY THE BILLS AT ANY AUTOMOTIVE COMPANY that large. M3's, CLK Blacks, GT whatevers are not what keeps people employed. 3s, cayennes, E-Classes, and stuff like this do though. Honestly it is probably for the best. If we kept the high revving engines and less efficient transmissions BMW would have to make more cars to offset them. You would end up with more low power cars in the brand and many of you seem ready to scream saying it is diluting the brand and changing the image. Truth is that the image has been changed for a long time now. When you say bmw to most people they think luxury, not a pure bred sports car. Sporty cars are what makes BMW not mercedes or lexus. Thing is though most buyers who spend that kind of cash want a luxury car first and a sporty car second. Not to mention a sporty car to most people isn't much of anything. You could give an SL to most and they would think it is sporty. Hell a 335i has a nice torque kick down low to make most think they have the fastest thing around. (though to most things on the road they do) Look at the industry as a whole. What do you have in your car that makes it any better than a legacy for the money. (flame suit on, though in my defense I can name many individual great things about bmw) The things that make a luxury car special can be found in just about anything today STANDARD. Hell they aren't even special anymore. Heated seats, nav, leather, and even stability and traction control is mandated for next year. You really expect to sell a premium car to premium buyers and not have standard leather or auto dimming mirrors as standard and not piss many off along the way. Digressing here for a sec but that is just ridiculous that you pay a premium package in a premium car for stuff that honestly should just be standard. Then on top of that you want to make these cars less efficient. You can't expect to stay in business for a long time with a product that on the surface isn't any better than the rest of the lot. The mustang 5.0 is a great example of a means to an end. The m3 is a better car overall (imo) but you get nearly the same outcome for way less money in a more efficient setup (fuel wise) Most of you wouldn't buy the mustang as it isn't what you want in a car. I can understand that. But can you honestly say you would buy a car if it had no option for nav, heated seats, and all the other luxo barge stuff that I see most of the users here with. There isn't anything wrong with that either. Even if you would buy the M5 lotus edition model you would be one of maybe 20 real world buyers. How many of you have 6mt over DCT in an M3. And even though it came out later who bought the 6mt over the SMG in the M5 e60 when made available. What do you care if the car is DCT or Auto if it accomplishes the same thing overall. (I am no engineer so I don't claim to know if one is truly better or not) I can understand you say things about engine response and the benefits of high revving motors and whatnot, but it just doesn't make sense to a company that is known for it's prestige more than it's performance these days. Hell even porsche succeeded well with the cayenne. Many complained in the beginning and still do. But it ended up being the savior of porsche. If they dropped the cayenne they wouldn't have been able to make the GT3s we all love so much. Here is what it comes down to really. It is better for the planet and the future. One day fuel will be gone. Whether it takes 20 years or 200. We have to make steps in the right direction. The environment is also at risk. Would you want to be that one company that is still known for not being green. It is going to happen eventually. Just like smoking. You will become a leper for not being efficient or green. Like hummer buyers became at one point. If you want your car to be a bat shit insane high revving, non turbo, lightweight pollution box it is going to cost you. Are you willing to pay for it if it costs another 10k? Maybe, well how about if it costs you another 30-40k? That is what bmw would have to do if it doesn't meet regulations. (I don't know the numbers. Making shit up but you get the idea) You are going to have to pay the fines as they will be passed on to the customer. Even if you would pay most won't. On top of that most of you are full of it and would just go get a porsche or something higher end anyway at that point. And that would take sales from bmw and ultimately could crumble the brand. None of us wants this. It is inevitable, change will have to come to ALL BRANDS. Unless you are paying 200k + for a car.
All of this is my opinion and if I am wrong please just point it out. I am no statistician, engineer, or accountant so maybe I don't know what the fuck I am talking about. |
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02-15-2011, 09:27 AM | #94 |
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I fully understand the technological benefit of an automatic 8 (or even 12) speed gear box. Just like I fully understood the enhancement of DCT over a standard six speed manual.
BUT What about the intangibles? Cars with faster 0-60 or higher skid pad ratings or quicker ring laps remain viable substitutes to the M product range, but for some reason most of us bought M cars because of the qualitative benefits paired with a very solid showing on the objectives (power, handling, aesthetics, lap times, etc.) I opted for the manual in my e92 M3 over DCT just like I avoided ticking the SMG option box when I ordered my e46 M3. Its a personal preference to select manual in light of performance sacrifice. Like others on the forum, I appreciate the personal perception of driver skill (or at least driver involvement) to be fast in a manual. I also enjoy the feeling of control (regardless of the reality of control) in a manual gearbox. Pressing the clutch to the floor, engaging the next gear and matching revs is fun. Maybe not as fast, but more enjoyable (IMO) than letting a machine do it for me. I've driven the X6M - the autobox is less engaging than the DCT tranny in the m3s. I still hold that a DCT is less driver involved than a manual. I strongly believe the M5 target demographic is different than an M3. This assertion stems from changes in my own life- I'm starting a family and beginning to entertain more clients. These factors justify the four door, larger size, smoother riding M5 over the M3 sedan or coupe. I'm also making more money and spending less time on the track adding further credence to the M5 alternative. As seriously as I considered the F10 M5 for my next new car, the autobox feels like a big jump in driver involvement (as explained above). I braced myself for the transition from manual to DCT. But now it looks like I may have to go from manual to auto box? Disappointment sums it up. |
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02-15-2011, 09:36 AM | #95 |
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I might be wrong in this but is the internals of the M-DCT and Ferrari's DCT not one and the same but at the very least they are extremely close. If so then this whole 'can't cope with the power and torque' is nonsnese because the new Ferrari FF has 651hp and 504ft/lbs which is far more horsepower than the M5 will have and probably as more torque. I reckon if it's true then the reasons are to provide the M5 with a more polished driving experience than what a DCT could give, that or the KERS is still on the cards.
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02-15-2011, 09:38 AM | #96 |
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on an M5 or M6 no manual is ok BUT NO DCT... now thats messed up... at least put DCT on this bad boy then call it a day... screw the manual your driving a freakin 4 door...
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02-15-2011, 09:38 AM | #97 |
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Driving purists like and want to have the most direct driving experience they can. Even if it means that their human responses may be slower than the latest tech.
I own a DCT M3 and I love it, but the M5 without a 6MT option just isn't true to the spirit of the M-Division.
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02-15-2011, 09:39 AM | #98 | |
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They would do also good in keeping Accountants out of the design and development departments get rid of the RFT (as Mercedes did) and find better wheel and HPFP vendors. I wonder what they come up with next? Ah yes a new in-destructive wheel and tire bet that will be next (like the attached photo)
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Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well, now my C6.3 AMG with 487 HP does it too ---> Click here for some good stuff I found Last edited by Mr. ///M3 RD; 03-01-2011 at 08:18 AM.. |
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02-15-2011, 09:45 AM | #99 |
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I think the transmission choice is less to do with the feeling of engagement between the M3 and X6M and all to do with the difference in the engines and the cars they were attached to. But you are right that a manual is more invoving than even a DCT but those comments really relate to sportscars, not big heavy saloons.
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02-15-2011, 09:46 AM | #100 | |
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How many years have you been driving BMW"s ??? Quality once was great yes I agree, it is on a downhill spiral now. Mercedes outsold BMW last year ,,, this year is not over yet. So go for it start listing all the good things make sure you include RFT, HPFP and some of there high quality wheels. Go for it.
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02-15-2011, 10:21 AM | #101 | |
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Your comment highlights my frustration - the M5 used to be a saloon car with sports car capabilities. Look at the 4 prior generation M5s....all had a manual gearbox standard (or at least a zero cost option in the e60) and all performed at levels smaller and lighter sports car producers were envious of....hence the great brand equity in the M division and the M5. I'm not a M brand purist....I don't care if the engine is naturally aspirated or if the car runs on petrol, if they include driver aid like abs, traction control (as long as I can shut it off) or if its all wheel drive. What I am is a M brand lover because they produce cars that make me feel good when I'm driving them. If the motor is strong, the feel and feedback match solid handling, and the gearbox makes me feel like i'm somewhat responsible for the lap time or quick jaunt through town then I'm loyal. Start taking those intangibles away and I think they'll lose business to folks that already employed driver feel and involvement concessions (Audi, MB, etc). Lots of options out there for bland driving experiences. Last edited by auggiem3; 02-15-2011 at 10:26 AM.. |
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02-15-2011, 10:26 AM | #102 | |
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I think the 1M and ///M3 are the cars BMW will be a little more careful around. Cheers, e46e92
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02-15-2011, 10:32 AM | #103 | ||||||||
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You had me right up until there...
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Yes, adding more ratios to a DCT is more of a packaging challenge than adding more ratios to a convential automatic. But this does not make it impossible to do so - no more than a today's 6 speed manual was impossible back when we only had four and five speeds. |
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02-15-2011, 10:37 AM | #104 | ||
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BTW, Fixed your more/much error. Quote:
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02-15-2011, 10:43 AM | #105 |
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I cannot go into full detail as I have been asked not too until the first information comes through in the last days of March.
What I will say is that with M. Every choice is made to suit the car and with this car, particular attention to the drivetrain is very much a prolonged process. This is not an 18 month project like the 1M, this car has been in very long period of development . In M we trust. (Clue- look at the gear knob.)
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02-15-2011, 10:48 AM | #106 | |
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We either accept the weight penalty caused by our demand for unnecessary luxuries and safety regulations and in turn accept that these cars won't be the sports saloon they were in the past or buy something else in their range that does appeal to you which is why I say look at the M3 if not happy with what you see here. P.S. In my opinion the M5 needs to lose a lot of it's technical adaptation, 3 modes on the transmission (auto, sport and manual), 3 modes on the suspension (comfort, auto and sport), just one steering setting and just one setting for output. Oh and for heavensake think seriously about allowing all the DSC setting being turned off, with this amount of power the rear tyres will be toast in a heartbeat, great for the local tyre shop but not for your pocket. |
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02-15-2011, 10:48 AM | #107 |
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Mkoesel - you rock!
I'm not a tech guy so its always daunting to evaluate which postings contribute real knowledge vs. rantings littered with inaccuracies portrayed as fact. |
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02-15-2011, 10:53 AM | #109 | |
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