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      06-24-2012, 10:30 PM   #67
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Honestly, does anyone even remotely care what auto "magazines" report any more?? I have always wondered about journalistic honesty in magazines when management is afraid of pissing off their advertisers and thus loosing ad money (still very problematic in the high end audio world where certain audio magazines would not be worth lining my cat's litter box)....

I do NOT care what the Caddy does off/on the track. While I like to "buy American" I despise the interiors of any GM product (same for Chrysler/Dodge). Now, before anyone flames me for being ignorant, I have driven and ridden in GM cars off and on for years....my worst memory was riding in a friend's VERY expensive Corvette with a trashy and cheap interior; for goodness sakes...come on, all that plastic was the best GM could do on a $50k plus car??

I know exterior design is VERY subjective, like music, art, food, wine, etc, but Cadillac has been releasing some truly butt ugly cars lately...and poor Chris Bangle got raped in the press for his designs. Das tut mier leid, but I cannot appreciate the hatchet style sharp edges of Cadillac....and since it is I who writes the checks, it is my opinion and should be just fine....ja???

Finally, no one yet has mentioned the current "climate" we live in, with ever increasing environmental demands, political correctness, etc that is pushing BMW AG in probably undesired directions....

In conclusion, I have not driven an F10 M5 and yes, I spent plenty of time in an E60 M5 AND an E39 M5....based on the many reports I have already read about the M5, I am quite certain that when the time comes, I will gladly walk into my CA's office at my favorite BMW dealership (who, by the way, also sells Cadillac on the same "campus") and joyfully plop down the many shekels for a new F10 M5....I do not care about tracking the car and I am sure that the M-DCT will be just peachy for me....to those who love their Caddy's, well, bless you....

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      06-25-2012, 08:37 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Em/1
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Originally Posted by juddholland View Post
I never said the CTS-V can't compete. I said I don't like the CTS-V because it's an American car. A forum implies that I can share my opinion. To me, American cars are a waste of time. I've been privileged enough to position myself in a way that allows me to avoid buying an American car. But ironically, my hate for American products has been magnified by the fact that my X3 was built in America and it's a piece of shit. I've had two. They've been shit. I had a 535 wagon before, and it wasn't a piece of shit. I've had other German-made cars and they've only been a pleasure to own.

But I digress, every time I see a Cadillac, I see a Chevy. And that's disappointing. If a Cadillac was built somewhere else and didn't share platforms with American cars, I'd probably appreciate the company a bit more, but it wouldn't change how ugly I feel they are. There's nothing tasteful to me about chrome mesh, blacked out rims, heavily flecked metallic paints, and straight lines in a world where curved lines are no longer that much more expensive to make. I don't "ooh" and "ahh" when I see a Cadillac of any caliber driving down the road. I roll my eyes. So if I were in a position to buy a high performance luxury sedan, I'd buy an M5 or an Audi S6, NOT because they're better on track (and they most certainly may not be), but because I trust how they're built and if I'm spending that much on a car, I want to feel like the cachet that comes with it was worth every penny.
Your reply was intended, I gather, to make sure all of us were clear about the completely ignorant part.
I hope you're clear that I understand how great the CTS-V must drive. I'm not some annoying BMW fanboy who justifies BMW's mistakes and flaws as character points. I just really don't like American cars. Is that such a problem?
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      06-25-2012, 08:50 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYe60chrisIU
This is embarrassing for BMW in my opinion. There was so much hype about this car and how it was the "best m5 ever" and i think top gear even said one of the best cars you can buy today or something to that effect. Now it is struggling to edge out a cts-v... This was supposed to be the king of this segment. Now the case can be made that it isn't better than the s6, e63amg or caddy (at least for the money)
I stand by their claim that it's the best M5 yet. Think about it. Top Gear said it can be more comfortable than the regular 5-series but as fast as your average supercar. It eliminates the need for a daily driver. Maybe driving feel is a little disjointed, but I'd rather be comfortable than justify a harsh ride to my passengers and to my alignment with hypothetical track numbers that I will never be skilled enough to reproduce. It's just about brutal power in the most practical and tasteful sense. The car isn't as viscerally satisfying as some were hoping, but BMW is obviously trying to make compromises so 90% of its buyers don't have to.
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      06-25-2012, 11:19 PM   #70
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Ugh neither one of these cars really WOW me. I was actually cross shopping between these 2 cars. I will probably just go the GTR route and keep my 335. I really wanted to like the M5 but I have heard enough minor complaints that makes me not want to spend 90k+ on it. :-(
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      06-26-2012, 10:25 AM   #71
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I think people are beginning to forget the law of diminishing returns when it comes to 6 speed luxury sedans. Speed and comfort are inverse and cost just goes up. That's why the numbers are so close. You think the next CTSV is going to be 10 seconds faster around the track with an additional 50hp? They invented DCT for the numbers game. They're are a whole bunch of reviews with the DCT M5 comparing it to everything from the E63 to the GTR. As a potential 6 speed M5 buyer, I'm soooo glad they chose this car. Because in the end, I just needed to know which transmission was more fun in the M5. Edging out the CTSV is icing on the cake.
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      06-26-2012, 05:30 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzmmm View Post
Does anyone know how to reprogram the ECU so the sound pumped in can sound like a Formula 1 car? Looking forward to the M, but not when your next door neighbor has a Shelby and starts up compared to what my startup will be. I do enjoy asking him if his car has Nav or ventilated seats. His reply, no but it's fast. Cool, is that a Ford?
You want sound? Buy an E60 M5 and slap an exhaust on it.
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      06-26-2012, 05:35 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juddholland View Post
I never said the CTS-V can't compete. I said I don't like the CTS-V because it's an American car. A forum implies that I can share my opinion. To me, American cars are a waste of time. I've been privileged enough to position myself in a way that allows me to avoid buying an American car. But ironically, my hate for American products has been magnified by the fact that my X3 was built in America and it's a piece of shit. I've had two. They've been shit. I had a 535 wagon before, and it wasn't a piece of shit. I've had other German-made cars and they've only been a pleasure to own.

But I digress, every time I see a Cadillac, I see a Chevy. And that's disappointing. If a Cadillac was built somewhere else and didn't share platforms with American cars, I'd probably appreciate the company a bit more, but it wouldn't change how ugly I feel they are. There's nothing tasteful to me about chrome mesh, blacked out rims, heavily flecked metallic paints, and straight lines in a world where curved lines are no longer that much more expensive to make. I don't "ooh" and "ahh" when I see a Cadillac of any caliber driving down the road. I roll my eyes. So if I were in a position to buy a high performance luxury sedan, I'd buy an M5 or an Audi S6, NOT because they're better on track (and they most certainly may not be), but because I trust how they're built and if I'm spending that much on a car, I want to feel like the cachet that comes with it was worth every penny.
sorry, I couldn't help but LOL at this statement
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      06-27-2012, 02:23 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexMark View Post
Honestly, does anyone even remotely care what auto "magazines" report any more?? I have always wondered about journalistic honesty in magazines when management is afraid of pissing off their advertisers and thus loosing ad money (still very problematic in the high end audio world where certain audio magazines would not be worth lining my cat's litter box)....
Good post - the whole thing, not just the quoted part.

The focus I'd like to bring to this debate centres not so much around journalistic integrity, patriotism, or American car build quality, but rather on figuring out what each of us values as individuals. If you can articulate what you're looking for in a car, you're in a position to choose who you listen to, develop an objective evaluation criteria, and pick a car that best fits your value points.

The reviewer here clearly values a sharp edged track focussed saloon more than he values a daily driver that can run with some pretty exotic iron. He prefers the Caddy, but grudgingly acknowledges the M5 is a better car. This is great information for people who value the same things, but shouldn't bother those who value the target BMW has hit with the F10M5. (btw, I see many posts from people who are not 'threatened' by this review.)

If one feels a nasty edge in one's psyche after reading / viewing pieces like this, or the Car and Driver article that places the M5 behind the competitors, it would be good to ask .... "Is my primary objective to own a car that everyone envy's?" If the answer is 'yes', then there will be a certain amount of baggage to be carried around.

To those who's answer is 'yes', you have my pity, but please don't take out your frustrations in public. It's unbecoming.
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      06-28-2012, 05:32 PM   #75
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Having owned both an auto CTS-V (09) and a manual (2011), I must say they are impressive rides that bring a smile to my face every time. The M5 is a nice ride but if your looking for the best bang for the buck, with easy mods to get it over 650 HP through a tune, pulley change and other tweaks, it's one hell of a package. M5 does have better fit and finish and they way its put together (or that sense) maybe superior. With the new V a couple years away, it'll be a interesting comparison when the car debuts. I know that interior and weight of the vehicle have both been improved, as well as keyless start, heads up and all the safety systems added (lane depart & blind spot). Again, I think this debate isn't over at this point...

Whatever you have, enjoy it and if it makes you happy, then you chose the right vehicle.

Last edited by nynd; 07-01-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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      06-28-2012, 08:42 PM   #76
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Yes - the CTS-V 6MT is indeed a good fun ride. The interior, though, is very much inferior to that of the BMW, and just doesn't feel right for the price. Also, the fuel consumption is a bit too high...
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      06-29-2012, 03:52 PM   #77
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End of the "road" ..

I believe we are seeing a performance "bubble" for cars like this. Many cars can go fast these days; it's easy for manufactures to make big HP.

The overall layout of the cars will need to change to really separate themselves. I don't believe BMW feels it's necessary to use a lot of exotic lightweight materials etc in order to transform the 5 series into a speed and track king in the M5.


If you give a company in your segment long enough they will catch up (speed wise).


Think of the Atom as the extreme on one end and a stretch limo on the other.

Given time many cars with the same form factor will start to clump together.

Other than providing supreme balance lux and sport, I don't know how BMW will really "leave the pack".
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      07-02-2012, 07:47 PM   #78
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Wow...bothe are great cars so how anybody could bad mouth either is beyond me.

Back in 08, I (who had never owned a caddy, but had owned a BMW 7 series) looked at and drove both..the previous M5 obviously. I chose to purchase the V. It just won me over, even though I loved both. It just had a better balance for me of raw performance and refinement. But it was a TOUGH decision.

Now I may rethink it with the new M5, which seems badass. But don't downplay the V if you never drove it. I got to tear up Monticello with it and it is a world class vehicle.

By the way, are these the best published quarter times for the M5? I think wit can do better. I know that time is way off for the V. I was at the track in the fall of 08 when Motor Trend had the V ( not yet available to the public) and they were running consistent 12.2s with the manual and 12.1 with the automatic. (have vid if anyone doubts that ). Plus, I had many runs down the strip,with mine and got a best of 12.1 and a pretty standard 12.3, and that was typically with a feathered launch. I know a number of guys from the forum that cracked the 12s. A simple pulley swap and tune gets you there easy.
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      08-27-2012, 10:49 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srt8/bmw View Post
Wow...bothe are great cars so how anybody could bad mouth either is beyond me.

Back in 08, I (who had never owned a caddy, but had owned a BMW 7 series) looked at and drove both..the previous M5 obviously. I chose to purchase the V. It just won me over, even though I loved both. It just had a better balance for me of raw performance and refinement. But it was a TOUGH decision.

Now I may rethink it with the new M5, which seems badass. But don't downplay the V if you never drove it. I got to tear up Monticello with it and it is a world class vehicle.

By the way, are these the best published quarter times for the M5? I think wit can do better. I know that time is way off for the V. I was at the track in the fall of 08 when Motor Trend had the V ( not yet available to the public) and they were running consistent 12.2s with the manual and 12.1 with the automatic. (have vid if anyone doubts that ). Plus, I had many runs down the strip,with mine and got a best of 12.1 and a pretty standard 12.3, and that was typically with a feathered launch. I know a number of guys from the forum that cracked the 12s. A simple pulley swap and tune gets you there easy.

^I agree with him.

Well, truth is I do still like BMW than Cadillac so whatever happens I'll always be biased against my comment regarding bimmers. Cadillacs are cool and all, but I don't really think they shold be priced like now. Well that's how they price their Parts for Cadillac so I guess I can't really complain.
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