M5 Power Delivery - help from BMW requested

[SteveC]

I don't know if BMW ever monitors these forums but if they do, let's hope they notice this thread and do something about it.

In December I took delivery of a brand new M5 CP. I traded in an M135i which had been amazing fun to own, in order to finally have my dream car. I've owned various M cars, including M3s and a Z4M and I was really keen to own BMW's ultimate performance car.

I've now driven 4000 miles and for the most part I'm delighted with the car's overall performance. But there's one element that I really dislike and that would be incredibly easy to fix, namely a small part of the DCT's coding.
Here's what I'm talking about.
Take your M5 in default mode....everything in comfort and DCT in D1. Set off from standstill gently through the gears.....as you accelerate, marginally ease your foot down on the gas a few more mm. Feel that powerful surge? That's 560+ horsepower and 500 lb ft. of torque just waiting to be unleashed!
Now get the car to its target speed.....say 40 or 50 mph and hold that for a while. Car shifts to 6th or 7th and revs drop to around 1200.... Now ease your foot down again that same few mm. Notice the difference? Suddenly your M5 makes 75 horsepower and virtually no torque and small family sedans are passing you by. Ease your foot down a little more and..... sedan's still gaining.

Now let's figuratively repeat the same exercise in an M135i. Comfort, 50 mph, 1200 rpm, a whiff of gas and the ZF 8 speed instantly clicks down a gear or 2 and you're right in the thick part of the torque curve and off up the road with 320hp and a load of torques under your foot. No comparison. In an M135i I can cruise economically but the split second I want more power, its RIGHT THERE.
Do the same in the M5 and you can barely wake it up. Its not turbo lag because you can do the same in Sequential, kick it down a cog or 2 and its exactly like the M135i, only faster. A lot faster.

So come on BMW....do us all a favour, take a look at the M5's DCT coding and give us a car that performs like it should, ALL THE TIME!

[IshR]

I doubt they'll find an issue, in comfort settings the m5 is designed to be civilised and refined for driving around town.

Use the paddles bro, drive the car like an m-driver and you'll have no such problem.

[AGS]

Originally Posted by SteveC

everything in comfort and DCT in D1

That's what the throttle setting adjusts. Try it in Sport mode - it should kick down a gear with smaller throttle inputs. Sprort+ mode will generally hold it at a higher RPM at any given speed compared to Sport and Comfort.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by IshR

I doubt they'll find an issue, in comfort settings the m5 is designed to be civilised and refined for driving around town.

Use the paddles bro, drive the car like an m-driver and you'll have no such problem.

I love the paddles for sport driving but around town at low revs? The point is, if I pull away from traffic lights and accelerate to say 40, I have instantaneous response all the time. As soon as I stay at 40 for any distance, the car upshifts and drops the revs to around 1200...all correct and as it should be. However, should I decide I'd like to go a little faster than 40 and give a little gas, the car should simply down shift and accelerate a little. But it doesn't. Instead it hangs on to 1200rpm where there's no torque and does nothing, which I find amazingly irritating....
The M135i simply clicks down a cog or 2 and away you go...no fuss, no drama, just instant response.

If I fixed the car the way I believe it should be I'm damned sure you'd tell me its a major improvement, because the car would still feel very relaxed but also responsive. Not hyper, just smooth and very linear.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by AGS

That's what the throttle setting adjusts. Try it in Sport mode - it should kick down a gear with smaller throttle inputs. Sprort+ mode will generally hold it at a higher RPM at any given speed compared to Sport and Comfort.

Thanks, I'll try that because all I want is a more sensitive kick down. I don't need it holding onto gears longer. I wish they gave a detailed description of what each of the buttons actually does...what changes. For example, transmission modes 1, 2 and 3 also have a major influence on shift points.

[MCarsFan]

Until the turbos get going the car doesn't have much power, I agree.. But comparing the power band to a naturally aspirated 135i..so different. My advice..get a remap then..I can promise you one thing..it will wake you up!

[DrewM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Thanks, I'll try that because all I want is a more sensitive kick down. I don't need it holding onto gears longer. I wish they gave a detailed description of what each of the buttons actually does...what changes. For example, transmission modes 1, 2 and 3 also have a major influence on shift points.

You are right. it is coding. But it is not an "issue" since it is already there for you. Use D3. That is exactly what the three D settings do: they change the shift points. D1 is "limo mode". D3 is what you are looking for.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

You are right. it is coding. But it is not an "issue" since it is already there for you. Use D3. That is exactly what the three D settings do: they change the shift points. D1 is "limo mode". D3 is what you are looking for.

Well I'll try that too. I've never much fancied driving a 'limo'

[elitex]

Originally Posted by MCarsFan

Until the turbos get going the car doesn't have much power, I agree.. But comparing the power band to a naturally aspirated 135i..so different. My advice..get a remap then..I can promise you one thing..it will wake you up!

135i was naturally aspirated?

[M6-Coupe]

Steve, I believe we already discussed about this in your original thread months ago here:
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1101459
I don’t know why you don’t read what people tell you or what they post. Even in that thread you didn’t follow what people (including me) told you! Meanwhile, you are comparing a very light (3500 lb M135) mostly track oriented car with a heavy (4400 lb M5) sport-luxury car. Apple to orange! Furthermore ZF8 is no where even close to DCT. Apple to Apple comparison let's compare 550i with M5 (or 650i with M6). Almost the same platform, body and weight.
I have not owned 550i or M5, but have owned 650i and M6 with about 2 years seat time on each. The same chassis (F13) but different transmission (and ofcourse engine) and I'm telling you ZF8(HP70) vs DCT( Getrag DCI700) is Night and Day. ZF8 is not as fast as DCT and have no superiority except smoothness and fuel efficiency which is not subject to comparison in performance department of M car. Comfort mode is for freeway cruising not for racing purposes; however even in default Comfort (efficient) if you floor it, DCT selects the lowest possible (optimum) gear; but there is slightly difference between what DCT selects and what you want. For example in your example if you are at 6th gear, driving at 40 mph and floor the gas, DCT shifts down to 2nd gear but at 7th gear, 50 mph it shifts to 3rd gear not 2nd gear and still you can manually direct it to 2nd gear. I guess this is what you don't like about DCT. If you want your car jump like a champ, you need to drive it in the mode is meant to be driven. Select Sport+ throttle and D3/S3 transmission and floor it (pass the kickdown) whenever you want the monster be alive. Select MDM if you need more fun/agility.
In addition, in your M135 I assume you had 9 modes (3x3). 3 modes (Comfort, Sport, Sport+) and 3 transmission setting (S, D, M). In M5 you have 162 setting (3x3x3x3x2) for throttle response, suspension, steering, Drivelogic, transmission (S,D).
DCT has different settings, which is being selected by drivelogic.
In D mode 1,2,3 define the shift point. The higher selection, the higher RPM to shift. This help to take advantage of more horse power as far as maximum available torque
In S mode 1,2,3 define the speed of shifting. The higher selection, the faster shift. This help to reduce the delay between two gears when you go from one to another one.
And one more thing to make it clear for you. The maximum torque (500 lb-ft based on BMW spec) is available between 1500-5750 RPM. The maximum power (560 HP based on BMW spec) is available between 6000-7000 RPM. It means if you want to take the advantage of powerful V8TT S63tu to achieve the maximum acceleration YOU NEED TO LIVE NEXT TO REDLINE all the time. But then please don’t come back to us and complain about gas mileage lol

[Bokke]

^^ +1

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by elitex

135i was naturally aspirated?

Guess not.. My error..but I still feel it's difficult to compare a 135i to an M5.. And if the power is disappointing..get a remap..I certainly am not complaining.

[MCarsFan]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Steve, I believe we already discussed about this in your original thread months ago here:
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1101459
I don’t know why you don’t read what people tell you or what they post. Even in that thread you didn’t follow what people (including me) told you! Meanwhile, you are comparing a very light (3500 lb M135) mostly track oriented car with a heavy (4400 lb M5) sport-luxury car. Apple to orange! Furthermore ZF8 is no where even close to DCT. Apple to Apple comparison let's compare 550i with M5 (or 650i with M6). Almost the same platform, body and weight.
I have not owned 550i or M5, but have owned 650i and M6 with about 2 years seat time on each. The same chassis (F13) but different transmission (and ofcourse engine) and I'm telling you ZF8(HP70) vs DCT( Getrag DCI700) is Night and Day. ZF8 is not as fast as DCT and have no superiority except smoothness and fuel efficiency which is not subject to comparison in performance department of M car. Comfort mode is for freeway cruising not for racing purposes; however even in default Comfort (efficient) if you floor it, DCT selects the lowest possible (optimum) gear; but there is slightly difference between what DCT selects and what you want. For example in your example if you are at 6th gear, driving at 40 mph and floor the gas, DCT shifts down to 2nd gear but at 7th gear, 50 mph it shifts to 3rd gear not 2nd gear and still you can manually direct it to 2nd gear. I guess this is what you don't like about DCT. If you want your car jump like a champ, you need to drive it in the mode is meant to be driven. Select Sport+ throttle and D3/S3 transmission and floor it (pass the kickdown) whenever you want the monster be alive. Select MDM if you need more fun/agility.
In addition, in your M135 I assume you had 9 modes (3x3). 3 modes (Comfort, Sport, Sport+) and 3 transmission setting (S, D, M). In M5 you have 162 setting (3x3x3x3x2) for throttle response, suspension, steering, Drivelogic, transmission (S,D).
DCT has different settings, which is being selected by drivelogic.
In D mode 1,2,3 define the shift point. The higher selection, the higher RPM to shift. This help to take advantage of more horse power as far as maximum available torque
In S mode 1,2,3 define the speed of shifting. The higher selection, the faster shift. This help to reduce the delay between two gears when you go from one to another one.
And one more thing to make it clear for you. The maximum torque (500 lb-ft based on BMW spec) is available between 1500-5750 RPM. The maximum power (560 HP based on BMW spec) is available between 6000-7000 RPM. It means if you want to take the advantage of powerful V8TT S63tu to achieve the maximum acceleration YOU NEED TO LIVE NEXT TO REDLINE all the time. But then please don’t come back to us and complain about gas mileage lol

+2

[Wills2]

Moving the gas pedal a few mm in 7th at 1000rpm in efficiency mode? What else can you expect?

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Moving the gas pedal a few mm in 7th at 1000rpm in efficiency mode? What else can you expect?

A downshift?

The point is the M135i gets it perfect. The M5 ain't even close.
If I'd never driven the M135i, which is a turbo engine by the way, then I may be happy with DCT, but I did and I'm not.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by SteveC

A downshift?

The point is the M135i gets it perfect. The M5 ain't even close.
If I'd never driven the M135i, which is a turbo engine by the way, then I may be happy with DCT, but I did and I'm not.

Honestly, every car behaves differently you just have to learn to adjust. My everyday driving mode is Sport for everything. Efficiency mode is not a very good mode but I get why it's there.

[gblansten]

You read about comfort mode but you never think anyone has ever used it. Interesting feedback on it. For me comfort mode will remain an untested possibility.

[FASTTOYS]

Originally Posted by Bokke

^^ +1

WHATS UP I am back in an M5

[SteveC]

Default Comfort mode is ALMOST perfect for around town and smooth highway cruisin'. Everything relaxed, quiet, comfortable. Car pulls away from lights without any sudden jerks, slips smoothly from gear to gear, shifts quickly for good economy, smooths over surface irregularities, its quiet, the music system good, sunroof open....mmmmm, the ultimate wolf in very comfortable, relaxed fit sheep's clothing.

But just under the surface, there's a 560 horsepower 500 lb foot monster lurking, ready to spring into action.....except it isn't. Why not? I've actually no idea, because all it would take is a gentle, smooth, fuss free downshift, but to get that monster to wake up you've got to prod it hard with a very big stick...and by the time it wakes up, the moment's often past.

I know I could drive around in Sport and Sequential mode all day long, even when driving conditions don't call for it, but the only reason for doing so is that Comfort mode is flawed, and my point is, it doesn't need to be. The ONLY thing wrong with it is that once it gets itself into a high gear on a steady throttle, it refuses to downshift again when the throttle moves, making the car feel slow and unresponsive. In my opinion, slow and unresponsive should not be a part of an M5's repertoire. Its neither comfortable nor economical and spoils what is otherwise an extremely accomplished car. There are other cars in the BMW range that pull off this Comfort mode perfectly, so why not the M5, especially when its only a matter of some DCT coding?

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by SteveC

A downshift?

The point is the M135i gets it perfect. The M5 ain't even close.
If I'd never driven the M135i, which is a turbo engine by the way, then I may be happy with DCT, but I did and I'm not.

Go get a M135i then, if you cant drive with MDCT.

[MyF15+F85]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Default Comfort mode is ALMOST perfect for around town and smooth highway cruisin'. Everything relaxed, quiet, comfortable. Car pulls away from lights without any sudden jerks, slips smoothly from gear to gear, shifts quickly for good economy, smooths over surface irregularities, its quiet, the music system good, sunroof open....mmmmm, the ultimate wolf in very comfortable, relaxed fit sheep's clothing.

But just under the surface, there's a 560 horsepower 500 lb foot monster lurking, ready to spring into action.....except it isn't. Why not? I've actually no idea, because all it would take is a gentle, smooth, fuss free downshift, but to get that monster to wake up you've got to prod it hard with a very big stick...and by the time it wakes up, the moment's often past.



I know I could drive around in Sport and Sequential mode all day long, even when driving conditions don't call for it, but the only reason for doing so is that Comfort mode is flawed, and my point is, it doesn't need to be. The ONLY thing wrong with it is that once it gets itself into a high gear on a steady throttle, it refuses to downshift again when the throttle moves, making the car feel slow and unresponsive. In my opinion, slow and unresponsive should not be a part of an M5's repertoire. Its neither comfortable nor economical and spoils what is otherwise an extremely accomplished car. There are other cars in the BMW range that pull off this Comfort mode perfectly, so why not the M5, especially when its only a matter of some DCT coding?

As much as you may not like the way M5 behaves at your given description....
I have had ( driven ) quite a few vehicles and I must disagree with what you are trying to do ( achieve ) with the throttle .
THIS IS AN M5 big cruiser not 135iM, this thing is aimed at a different target market.
I love what M5 provides for me, ( going from 335i n55 tuned up and all ) the smiles that come from my M5 are something that no 135 or 335 could ever do for me.....
Cheers !

[DrewM5]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I know I could drive around in Sport and Sequential mode all day long, even when driving conditions don't call for it, but the only reason for doing so is that Comfort mode is flawed, and my point is, it doesn't need to be. The ONLY thing wrong with it is that once it gets itself into a high gear on a steady throttle, it refuses to downshift again when the throttle moves, making the car feel slow and unresponsive.

If it did that, it would not be comfort mode. That is exactly why there a different settings - and that is entirely consistent with the M% (wolf in sheep's clothing).