Motortrend: Why the F10 M5 May Be Automatic-Only

[footie]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Hey when it is Miller time in America , it is bedtime in Munich.

But why the Paranoia?

The world is full of complainers and anyway what else do they really have to complain about if not this.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I will reply later today, I am occupied at the moment with other matters.

Nothing is Impossible... It is the only the human mind that makes it impossible.

I have to agree here, the likelihood is that it's true but personally I'm of the opinion it's a good thing and for the reasons I listed.

Originally Posted by Diver

That's the truth. Besides, the proof is in how it drives. This is an enthusiast forum. As such, it is very different from the overall population of BMW buyers.

I still think the DCT vs 8 speed auto choice is related to pumping losses in the wet clutch. A true manual was probably not on the menu from the start.

The reality is that most if not all the negative comments addressed to this possibility are from people who never will own an M5, they have this idealistic belief that automatics are awful power sapping, slow slush boxes that have no business in a sportscar. WAKE UP YOU LOT, this is a big heavy saloon car, no a sportscar and as such it needs to deliver on the luxury side of it's personality as well as being quick. The guy that wants something sporty will buy a proper sportscar or at the very least something like an M3, he most definitely won't be considering this that is for sure, so let BMW develop the M5 into a proper sport/luxury saloon, it will be all the better for it.

[Onurleft]

The thing is... The current 2011 Alpina B7 uses the 6 speed automatic from the previous generation 7 series because the engineers at Alpina, who are contracted through BMW, claimed it was uncertain/not likely the 8 speed would hold the torque.

So is this a built 8 speed auto trans? I don't think M will ditch DCT and manual transmissions aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Also, The X5M/X6M actually has a heavier drivetrain then the next gen M5, and there is a much harsher energy (torque) shock through the transmission on an AWD launch vs. RWD which further makes me believe DCT is still in the works

[vladberca]

I don t know if M5 really needs a MT. It is the size of the car which will "tell" u that an AT is the better way.
An MT is a must for the M3 1M & M3 are track cars! M5, M6, X5 M & X6M are just very fast cruisers!

[GOLFFRR]

interesting, I guess we will just have to wait and see but lets hope that this theory of having only one option and that being automatic doesn't trickle down to every M car.

[richardg]

First of all to all the purists out there. We DON'T PAY THE BILLS AT ANY AUTOMOTIVE COMPANY that large. M3's, CLK Blacks, GT whatevers are not what keeps people employed. 3s, cayennes, E-Classes, and stuff like this do though. Honestly it is probably for the best. If we kept the high revving engines and less efficient transmissions BMW would have to make more cars to offset them. You would end up with more low power cars in the brand and many of you seem ready to scream saying it is diluting the brand and changing the image. Truth is that the image has been changed for a long time now. When you say bmw to most people they think luxury, not a pure bred sports car. Sporty cars are what makes BMW not mercedes or lexus. Thing is though most buyers who spend that kind of cash want a luxury car first and a sporty car second. Not to mention a sporty car to most people isn't much of anything. You could give an SL to most and they would think it is sporty. Hell a 335i has a nice torque kick down low to make most think they have the fastest thing around. (though to most things on the road they do) Look at the industry as a whole. What do you have in your car that makes it any better than a legacy for the money. (flame suit on, though in my defense I can name many individual great things about bmw) The things that make a luxury car special can be found in just about anything today STANDARD. Hell they aren't even special anymore. Heated seats, nav, leather, and even stability and traction control is mandated for next year. You really expect to sell a premium car to premium buyers and not have standard leather or auto dimming mirrors as standard and not piss many off along the way. Digressing here for a sec but that is just ridiculous that you pay a premium package in a premium car for stuff that honestly should just be standard. Then on top of that you want to make these cars less efficient. You can't expect to stay in business for a long time with a product that on the surface isn't any better than the rest of the lot. The mustang 5.0 is a great example of a means to an end. The m3 is a better car overall (imo) but you get nearly the same outcome for way less money in a more efficient setup (fuel wise) Most of you wouldn't buy the mustang as it isn't what you want in a car. I can understand that. But can you honestly say you would buy a car if it had no option for nav, heated seats, and all the other luxo barge stuff that I see most of the users here with. There isn't anything wrong with that either. Even if you would buy the M5 lotus edition model you would be one of maybe 20 real world buyers. How many of you have 6mt over DCT in an M3. And even though it came out later who bought the 6mt over the SMG in the M5 e60 when made available. What do you care if the car is DCT or Auto if it accomplishes the same thing overall. (I am no engineer so I don't claim to know if one is truly better or not) I can understand you say things about engine response and the benefits of high revving motors and whatnot, but it just doesn't make sense to a company that is known for it's prestige more than it's performance these days. Hell even porsche succeeded well with the cayenne. Many complained in the beginning and still do. But it ended up being the savior of porsche. If they dropped the cayenne they wouldn't have been able to make the GT3s we all love so much. Here is what it comes down to really. It is better for the planet and the future. One day fuel will be gone. Whether it takes 20 years or 200. We have to make steps in the right direction. The environment is also at risk. Would you want to be that one company that is still known for not being green. It is going to happen eventually. Just like smoking. You will become a leper for not being efficient or green. Like hummer buyers became at one point. If you want your car to be a bat shit insane high revving, non turbo, lightweight pollution box it is going to cost you. Are you willing to pay for it if it costs another 10k? Maybe, well how about if it costs you another 30-40k? That is what bmw would have to do if it doesn't meet regulations. (I don't know the numbers. Making shit up but you get the idea) You are going to have to pay the fines as they will be passed on to the customer. Even if you would pay most won't. On top of that most of you are full of it and would just go get a porsche or something higher end anyway at that point. And that would take sales from bmw and ultimately could crumble the brand. None of us wants this. It is inevitable, change will have to come to ALL BRANDS. Unless you are paying 200k + for a car.

All of this is my opinion and if I am wrong please just point it out. I am no statistician, engineer, or accountant so maybe I don't know what the fuck I am talking about.

[auggiem3]

I fully understand the technological benefit of an automatic 8 (or even 12) speed gear box. Just like I fully understood the enhancement of DCT over a standard six speed manual.

BUT

What about the intangibles? Cars with faster 0-60 or higher skid pad ratings or quicker ring laps remain viable substitutes to the M product range, but for some reason most of us bought M cars because of the qualitative benefits paired with a very solid showing on the objectives (power, handling, aesthetics, lap times, etc.)

I opted for the manual in my e92 M3 over DCT just like I avoided ticking the SMG option box when I ordered my e46 M3. Its a personal preference to select manual in light of performance sacrifice.

Like others on the forum, I appreciate the personal perception of driver skill (or at least driver involvement) to be fast in a manual. I also enjoy the feeling of control (regardless of the reality of control) in a manual gearbox. Pressing the clutch to the floor, engaging the next gear and matching revs is fun. Maybe not as fast, but more enjoyable (IMO) than letting a machine do it for me.

I've driven the X6M - the autobox is less engaging than the DCT tranny in the m3s. I still hold that a DCT is less driver involved than a manual.

I strongly believe the M5 target demographic is different than an M3. This assertion stems from changes in my own life- I'm starting a family and beginning to entertain more clients. These factors justify the four door, larger size, smoother riding M5 over the M3 sedan or coupe. I'm also making more money and spending less time on the track adding further credence to the M5 alternative.

As seriously as I considered the F10 M5 for my next new car, the autobox feels like a big jump in driver involvement (as explained above). I braced myself for the transition from manual to DCT. But now it looks like I may have to go from manual to auto box?

Disappointment sums it up.

[footie]

I might be wrong in this but is the internals of the M-DCT and Ferrari's DCT not one and the same but at the very least they are extremely close. If so then this whole 'can't cope with the power and torque' is nonsnese because the new Ferrari FF has 651hp and 504ft/lbs which is far more horsepower than the M5 will have and probably as more torque. I reckon if it's true then the reasons are to provide the M5 with a more polished driving experience than what a DCT could give, that or the KERS is still on the cards.

[Grail05]

on an M5 or M6 no manual is ok BUT NO DCT... now thats messed up... at least put DCT on this bad boy then call it a day... screw the manual your driving a freakin 4 door...

[James T. Kirk]

Driving purists like and want to have the most direct driving experience they can. Even if it means that their human responses may be slower than the latest tech.

I own a DCT M3 and I love it, but the M5 without a 6MT option just isn't true to the spirit of the M-Division.

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

This is how (great) car companies loose their way - and dilute their image.

BMW should listen more to its customers (us!) and less to its M(marketing) people. Soon we will have auto only M-cars. Madness.

Dackel

+100

They would do also good in keeping Accountants out of the design and development departments get rid of the RFT (as Mercedes did) and find better wheel and HPFP vendors. I wonder what they come up with next?

Ah yes a new in-destructive wheel and tire bet that will be next (like the attached photo)

[footie]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

I've driven the X6M - the autobox is less engaging than the DCT tranny in the m3s. I still hold that a DCT is less driver involved than a manual.

I think the transmission choice is less to do with the feeling of engagement between the M3 and X6M and all to do with the difference in the engines and the cars they were attached to. But you are right that a manual is more invoving than even a DCT but those comments really relate to sportscars, not big heavy saloons.

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

Originally Posted by richardg

(flame suit on, though in my defense I can name many individual great things about bmw)

I wish you would name just a few!!!

How many years have you been driving BMW"s ???

Quality once was great yes I agree, it is on a downhill spiral now.

Mercedes outsold BMW last year ,,, this year is not over yet.

So go for it start listing all the good things make sure you include RFT, HPFP and some of there high quality wheels. Go for it.

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by footie

I think the transmission choice is less to do with the feeling of engagement between the M3 and X6M and all to do with the difference in the engines and the cars they were attached to. But you are right that a manual is more invoving than even a DCT but those comments really relate to sportscars, not big heavy saloons.

Footie, no doubt the transmission in the X6M resulted from factors associated with the car - I'm sure the folks at M gmbH would prefer to put DCT into the X6M and X5M to save money on developing a new transmission and enhance driver involvement. I bet that given the motor and weight constraints, they were forced to go auto box.

Your comment highlights my frustration - the M5 used to be a saloon car with sports car capabilities. Look at the 4 prior generation M5s....all had a manual gearbox standard (or at least a zero cost option in the e60) and all performed at levels smaller and lighter sports car producers were envious of....hence the great brand equity in the M division and the M5.

I'm not a M brand purist....I don't care if the engine is naturally aspirated or if the car runs on petrol, if they include driver aid like abs, traction control (as long as I can shut it off) or if its all wheel drive. What I am is a M brand lover because they produce cars that make me feel good when I'm driving them. If the motor is strong, the feel and feedback match solid handling, and the gearbox makes me feel like i'm somewhat responsible for the lap time or quick jaunt through town then I'm loyal.

Start taking those intangibles away and I think they'll lose business to folks that already employed driver feel and involvement concessions (Audi, MB, etc). Lots of options out there for bland driving experiences.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by footie

71 posts of mostly negative comments and yet the one man who could address these fears is otherwise unavailable and elsewhere promoting all the positives that BMW are doing of which there is many I might add.

SPEAKS VOLUME TOWARDS THIS NOT BEING A RUMOR

So if not a rumor and it's in fact true then where does that leave the M5 as the top dog in the performance sector? Probably will make it a better balanced car overall in truth as you must still remember this is a big heavy saloon with serious amounts of power and torque yet will be mostly driven by big fat cats of industry who won't take it to the track and will generally drive it on the freeway/motorway/Autobahn at break neck speeds which is the REAL environment and purpose of these cars.

Can't disagree........I think the number of ///M5/M6s that see the track are a fraction of ///M3s that see the track. In reality, the ///M5 targets the older guy who needs to be comfortable, but who likes to enjoy life and act like a 25 year old every now and again.

I think the 1M and ///M3 are the cars BMW will be a little more careful around.

Cheers,
e46e92

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by David1

Bingo!!

The 8spd is an amazing trans...

You had me right up until there...

and has more tech and potential in it than the DCT.

By what measure?

The DCT clutch pack can not hold this much torque.

"The DCT clutch pack"? Which one? You make it sound like there is only one type in existence which all DCT transmission are a slave to.

The DCT does not have 2 real clutches in it. It has two clutch packs similar to an auto trans.

Not even close. The current M-DCT in the M3 (as well as others used by Audi, Porsche, etc.) absolutely does have two wet clutches in it, and they are laid out in a concentric fashion - completely different from the clutch packs used with an automatic transmission's planetary sets.

So the only real difference is that the DCT has conventional Manual gears in it.

No. It's true that the current M-DCT uses a conventional step-down helical gear train like a manual transmission, but the major different between the DCT and the Steptronic is that the DCT has twin output shafts which allow the transmission to engage two gear simulteneous and switch between them in a near instant - much quicker than 100ms.

The Auto has drums and sun gears on a common shaft. Both can be made to shift just as fast, but not as fast a a true dual clutch automated manual. It is all in the software.

The M-DCT is a true dual-clutch transmission and can execute a shift in 50ms or even less. BMW's current Steptronic 8 speed cannot do that, though in theory it could be made to. And there are other torque-converter + planetary-set transmission are quicker. But to say that the different between DCT and Steptronic is "all in the software" is total bunk.

You guys know that the Ferrari F1 clutches are only good for about 15k miles (with lower torque motors) and are major bucks to replace.

Even if that is so (source?) clearly the current M-DCT clutches last much longer, and so do those from Audi and Porsche (and others).

The manual trans has reached the end. You can not add any more gears to make a 7 or 8spd manual.

Wrong again, Porsche is working on them.

That case would be huge and not able to fit in anything produced today outside of big trucks. plus you wouldn't be able to make the trans humanly shiftable.

Baseless speculation and exaggeration. In all liklihood 8 speed DCTs are in development now and will be available very soon.

Yes, adding more ratios to a DCT is more of a packaging challenge than adding more ratios to a convential automatic. But this does not make it impossible to do so - no more than a today's 6 speed manual was impossible back when we only had four and five speeds.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by footie

I might be wrong in this but is the internals of the M-DCT and Ferrari's DCT not one and the same but at the very least they are extremely close. If so then this whole 'can't cope with the power and torque' is nonsnese because the new Ferrari FF has 651hp and 504ft/lbs which is far more horsepower than the M5 will have and probably as much torque.

Absolutely footie. There is Porsche PDK too - 516ft-lbs in the Turbo S. Probably close to that in the Panamera too - and yes I know that the two vehicles use totally different DCT units.

BTW, Fixed your more/much error.

I reckon if it's true then the reasons are to provide the M5 with a more polished driving experience than what a DCT could give, that or the KERS is still on the cards.

Could be either I suppose, but I am skeptical to say the least. KERS could work with DCT or Steptronic, and "more polished" is pretty subjective.

[SCOTT26]

I cannot go into full detail as I have been asked not too until the first information comes through in the last days of March.

What I will say is that with M. Every choice is made to suit the car and with this car, particular attention to the drivetrain is very much a prolonged process.
This is not an 18 month project like the 1M, this car has been in very long period of development .

In M we trust.

(Clue- look at the gear knob.)

[footie]

Originally Posted by auggiem3

Footie, no doubt the transmission in the X6M resulted from factors associated with the car - I'm sure the folks at M gmbH would prefer to put DCT into the X6M and X5M to save money on developing a new transmission and enhance driver involvement. I bet that given the motor and weight constraints, they were forced to go auto box.

Your comment highlights my frustration - the M5 used to be a saloon car with sports car capabilities. Look at the 4 prior generation M5s....all had a manual gearbox standard (or at least a zero cost option in the e60) and all performed at levels smaller and lighter sports car producers were envious of....hence the great brand equity in the M division and the M5.

I'm not a M brand purist....I don't care if the engine is naturally aspirated or if the car runs on petrol, if they include driver aid like abs, traction control (as long as I can shut it off) or if its all wheel drive. What I am is a M brand lover because they produce cars that make me feel good when I'm driving them. If the motor is strong, the feel and feedback match solid handling, and the gearbox makes me feel like i'm somewhat responsible for the lap time or quick jaunt through town then I'm loyal.

Start taking those intangibles away and I think they'll lose business to folks that already employed driver feel and involvement concessions (Audi, MB, etc). Lots of options out there for bland driving experiences.

I personally felt the last true M5 was the E39, the E60 was a halfway house between a luxury car and a sportscar and their choice of transmission at that time was a bad one as was the decision to offer two levels of output. But the biggest problem for these cars today is weight, just look at the difference in weight between all the M5 models through the years, E28 weighed 1550kg, E34 weighed 1670kg, E39 weighed 1826kg and the E60 weighed roughly the same, chances are the F10 will weigh even more than this as the difference between respective E60 and F10 models is on average 80~100kg more.

We either accept the weight penalty caused by our demand for unnecessary luxuries and safety regulations and in turn accept that these cars won't be the sports saloon they were in the past or buy something else in their range that does appeal to you which is why I say look at the M3 if not happy with what you see here.

P.S.
In my opinion the M5 needs to lose a lot of it's technical adaptation, 3 modes on the transmission (auto, sport and manual), 3 modes on the suspension (comfort, auto and sport), just one steering setting and just one setting for output. Oh and for heavensake think seriously about allowing all the DSC setting being turned off, with this amount of power the rear tyres will be toast in a heartbeat, great for the local tyre shop but not for your pocket.

[auggiem3]

Mkoesel - you rock!

I'm not a tech guy so its always daunting to evaluate which postings contribute real knowledge vs. rantings littered with inaccuracies portrayed as fact.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

(Clue- look at the gear knob.)

Looks like an M-DCT knob to me.

[auggiem3]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I cannot go into full detail as I have been asked not too until the first information comes through in the last days of March.

What I will say is that with M. Every choice is made to suit the car and with this car, particular attention to the drivetrain is very much a prolonged process.
This is not an 18 month project like the 1M, this car has been in very long period of development .

In M we trust.

(Clue- look at the gear knob.)

Looks like we can end this thread - motor trend is wrong.

[TonyMeister]

M5 test mule:



M3 with DCT:



The article is BS. The M5 F10 will have a DCT gearbox.