M5 Power Delivery - help from BMW requested

[Jay-K]

drive with the paddles bro

[RPiM5]

Dude, stop driving in D1.

This the second thread on the same topic.

[BarryB]

+ 100

[IshR]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I know I could drive around in Sport and Sequential mode all day long, even when driving conditions don't call for it, but the only reason for doing so is that Comfort mode is flawed, and my point is, it doesn't need to be. The ONLY thing wrong with it is that once it gets itself into a high gear on a steady throttle, it refuses to downshift again when the throttle moves, making the car feel slow and unresponsive. In my opinion, slow and unresponsive should not be a part of an M5's repertoire. Its neither comfortable nor economical and spoils what is otherwise an extremely accomplished car. There are other cars in the BMW range that pull off this Comfort mode perfectly, so why not the M5, especially when its only a matter of some DCT coding?

Originally Posted by DrewM5

If it did that, it would not be comfort mode. That is exactly why there a different settings - and that is entirely consistent with the M% (wolf in sheep's clothing).

THIS

[IshR]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Dude, stop driving in D1.

This the second thread on the same topic.

and THIS

[Bönz]

Just use D2. Sounds like what you're looking for.

[SteveC]

Thanks for the helpful feedback guys, let me summarize what you've told me:

• "We know D1 is crap"
• "Its designed to be crap"
• "Stop using it, real M drivers don't use D1"

Well to return the favour, here's my feedback

You're right, D1 is crap
The only reason its crap, is because with steady throttle and speed it changes to the highest gear (good) then refuses to let go (bad)
Using D2 avoids the problem but means that in cities and steady speed freeways, you're constantly driving in a higher gear than necessary
Other cars in the BMW range don't hang on to top gear like the M5 and are consequently much better in comfort mode
If BMW would reprogram D1, you'd have an M5 that can gently cruise yet remain instantly responsive. Instead, what you currently have is an M5 that can gently cruise, but that's brain dead when you ask it to perform.
Its a good reason not to use D1, because its flawed, which is a pity, because it needn't be. A few lines of code could make it perfect

[Bönz]

Steve: I understand your point, but it's not that the M5 is different than other BMWs, it's that the MDCT is different than the ZF8. I am sure that the MDCT could be programed to have a more responsive kick down in D1, but that makes it more like D2 and probably would affect the M5's economy ratings (which I realize no one cares about except BMW).

I don't think D1 is crap, it has its uses. But you need to think of it as an economy mode, not a comfort mode. D1 is even called "efficient driving" in the owner's manual.

My MDCT equipped E92 M3 had 5 D modes and 6 S modes. It was too many.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Thanks for the helpful feedback guys, let me summarize what you've told me:

• "We know D1 is crap"
• "Its designed to be crap"
• "Stop using it, real M drivers don't use D1"

Well to return the favour, here's my feedback

You're right, D1 is crap
The only reason its crap, is because with steady throttle and speed it changes to the highest gear (good) then refuses to let go (bad)
Using D2 avoids the problem but means that in cities and steady speed freeways, you're constantly driving in a higher gear than necessary
Other cars in the BMW range don't hang on to top gear like the M5 and are consequently much better in comfort mode
If BMW would reprogram D1, you'd have an M5 that can gently cruise yet remain instantly responsive. Instead, what you currently have is an M5 that can gently cruise, but that's brain dead when you ask it to perform.
Its a good reason not to use D1, because its flawed, which is a pity, because it needn't be. A few lines of code could make it perfect

Three thoughts

a) D1 isn't crap, it's comfort mode -- in that it is comfortable enough for my wife to drive it if need be without a twitch response throttle she isnt used to. (This allows me to have cocktails when we go out in my car, and have a DD if need be)

b) Step on the F*ing throttle if you want power. Even in D1 mode, if you get the pedal down past the soft detent, you get the whole beast. If you don't want to do that, then pull and hold a paddle while giving it gas. You will get an immediate 2-3 geardownshift to put the car in powerband, even in D1.

c) Consider going back to your nostalgic 135... the M5 may be way too complicated for you, if you cant program the M1 or M2 to your preferred settings. There is a reason race car wheels look like this... I gaurantee this car starts out in its version of D1 too (and I want a 'fancy' button in my M5)

[phil_]

If using the whole pedal travel bothers you that much get a sprint booster. I seriously doubt you will convince BMW to change something that is as designed. The sport plus mode is perfect for me.

I had a sprint booster on my E60 M5 and really liked it. It's configurable and you will be able to turn the M5 into a twitchy monster if that's what you want.

[DrewM5]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

Three thoughts

a) D1 isn't crap, it's comfort mode -- in that it is comfortable enough for my wife to drive it if need be without a twitch response throttle she isnt used to. (This allows me to have cocktails when we go out in my car, and have a DD if need be)

b) Step on the F*ing throttle if you want power. Even in D1 mode, if you get the pedal down past the soft detent, you get the whole beast. If you don't want to do that, then pull and hold a paddle while giving it gas. You will get an immediate 2-3 geardownshift to put the car in powerband, even in D1.

c) Consider going back to your nostalgic 135... the M5 may be way too complicated for you, if you cant program the M1 or M2 to your preferred settings. There is a reason race car wheels look like this... I gaurantee this car starts out in its version of D1 too (and I want a 'fancy' button in my M5)

[/IMG]

AMEN! Just because D1 does not suit your needs doesn't make it crap. Now, if D2 or D3 would not provide you with what you want, I would say you have a viable complaint. But since you just seem set on using D1 and getting the features of D2 or D3, I have to think it is you and not the car that is flawed. Unless your position is that this car should be tailored to your personal desires at the expense of everyone else's.

[RPiM5]

SteveC listen to B-1 Pilot, he's a cool dude.

[SteveC]

Firstly, thanks for your feedback, which I really appreciate. I've been a petrol head since my youth and owned and driven plenty of M cars, Super bikes and raced open class off-roaders. I lived in South Africa for many years where I learned about drifting cars at high speed on unpaved roads

I love the M5 and thoroughly enjoy driving it on challenging roads in Sequential and Sport plus modes. But when I enter the city limits or join a busy freeway, I usually hit the M button again and drop back into default, which I appreciate for its softer, more forgiving nature. In general the car is perfect in this mode, still responsive, still a lovely car to drive and one for which I have no complaints. Ease down on the gas and the car responds instantly. Push harder and it start to growl and get serious...all in D1. But let it reach top gear at a steady speed and drop the revs to 1200 and all that's gone. The car becomes unresponsive to the gas pedal and reminds me of my very first car...an underpowered Opel Rekord.....not a fond memory. If you guys think that's normal and desirable, OK. But personally I think it sucks

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Thanks for the helpful feedback guys, let me summarize what you've told me:

• "We know D1 is crap"
• "Its designed to be crap"
• "Stop using it, real M drivers don't use D1"

Well to return the favour, here's my feedback

You're right, D1 is crap
The only reason its crap, is because with steady throttle and speed it changes to the highest gear (good) then refuses to let go (bad)
Using D2 avoids the problem but means that in cities and steady speed freeways, you're constantly driving in a higher gear than necessary
Other cars in the BMW range don't hang on to top gear like the M5 and are consequently much better in comfort mode
If BMW would reprogram D1, you'd have an M5 that can gently cruise yet remain instantly responsive. Instead, what you currently have is an M5 that can gently cruise, but that's brain dead when you ask it to perform.
Its a good reason not to use D1, because its flawed, which is a pity, because it needn't be. A few lines of code could make it perfect

LOL... A few lines of code make D1 exactly like D2. Those few lines of code are already there and named D2

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

LOL... A few lines of code make D1 exactly like D2. Those few lines of code are already there and named D2

That's actually not correct. Try this. Drive in D1 at say 50 mph and let the car select 7th at 1200 rpm. Perfect. Now click D2 without giving any gas. The car will instantly shift to 6th or even 5th. I don't want 5th or 6th, I want 7th because that's the lowest, most economical and appropriate gear for steady speed. HOWEVER, the car will not accelerate in 7th and 1200 rpm, so when I give gas, even a little, I'd like it to select 6th and gently accelerate. Instead it stubbornly hangs onto 7th. If I then give a lot more gas it kicks down to 4th or 5th and takes off like a rocket.

So have a choice. I can either drive around town in D2 1 or 2 gears too low and have instant acceleration or I can select D1, get the appropriate gear but then have no acceleration when I ask for it. The point is, why can't I have both the right gear and acceleration when I ask for it?

D2 holds higher gears for sports driving. That's not at all what I want. I want the car to select the highest gear and lowest revs possible, but I also want it to recognise when its unable to respond to my demand for more speed and downshift so it can. It recognises when I'm not asking for more speed and drops it into 7th, but once there it doesn't recognise when I am asking for more speed and take it back out of 7th. Its not sport driving or D2 I'm after, just a properly implemented D1
I think someone hit the nail on the head when they suggested that D1 is programmed solely for economy in order to make the numbers look good.

[JoM3z]

I still don't understand why this is even an issue. If you want throttle response I suggest setting everything either on Sports or Sports + and leave the suspension on comfort. The M5 is targeted towards different demographic than the 1, 2, 3, and 4 series and it has to reflect that. So comparing the M5 to a 1M or a 135 is apples and oranges. You can easily find the best driving modes by playing around with the DriveLogic/Sequencial. We have 3 programmable settings, Normal Start setting, M1 and M2. I find it hard to believe that you can't find a setting that suites your driving needs. I've had my car for a year and I can unleash its power at any given time. You probably driving the car all wrong!

Drive Logic Modes 1-3
1: Delay in shifts for smoothest (but slow) gear changes
2: No delay in shifts; fast gear changes
3: Fastest possible shifting speed.

You can choose D1-D3 or S1-S3
D = Drivelogic; shifts automatically
S = Sequential: manual shifts

-Efficient - comfortable. Minimal fuel consumption
-Sport - sporty, dynamic
-Sport Plus - spontaneous, direct. Maximum dynamics.

Originally Posted by SteveC

Default Comfort mode is ALMOST perfect for around town and smooth highway cruisin'. Everything relaxed, quiet, comfortable. Car pulls away from lights without any sudden jerks, slips smoothly from gear to gear, shifts quickly for good economy, smooths over surface irregularities, its quiet, the music system good, sunroof open....mmmmm, the ultimate wolf in very comfortable, relaxed fit sheep's clothing.

But just under the surface, there's a 560 horsepower 500 lb foot monster lurking, ready to spring into action.....except it isn't. Why not? I've actually no idea, because all it would take is a gentle, smooth, fuss free downshift, but to get that monster to wake up you've got to prod it hard with a very big stick...and by the time it wakes up, the moment's often past.

I know I could drive around in Sport and Sequential mode all day long, even when driving conditions don't call for it, but the only reason for doing so is that Comfort mode is flawed, and my point is, it doesn't need to be. The ONLY thing wrong with it is that once it gets itself into a high gear on a steady throttle, it refuses to downshift again when the throttle moves, making the car feel slow and unresponsive. In my opinion, slow and unresponsive should not be a part of an M5's repertoire. Its neither comfortable nor economical and spoils what is otherwise an extremely accomplished car. There are other cars in the BMW range that pull off this Comfort mode perfectly, so why not the M5, especially when its only a matter of some DCT coding?

[nabizzy]

Never thought I would hear anyone say this car doesn't have good enough power delivery even in its stock form lol

[Tanin]

Originally Posted by SteveC

A few lines of code could make it perfect

Not as quick but does give me the ability to change code to my liking

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by DrewM5

Unless your position is that this car should be tailored to your personal desires at the expense of everyone else's.

Agreed, although BMW has provided a car that will adapt the pre-set D modes the driver's current driving style. What it can't do is be instantaneously predictive in D. At least not until BMW provides a car that can reliably 'read' our thoughts. Some of the required tech is currently in it's infancy (we already have drowsiness detectors, etc.).

SteveC

If driven slowly for a period of time, the responsiveness will diminish accordingly. WOT will result in a momentary delay before the car wakes up and, therefore, increasing the potential for a "hooligan overtake". I believe our feedback & your testing has proven that this is by design and not fault.

Dependant on the extent to which the current driving style has dulled the responsiveness, even switching to D3/Sport+ at <60mph can sometimes leave the DCT in 7th, albeit that downshifts will occur faster than D1/Comfort in response to any throttle application. The only way around this is to be proactive and switch to S and appropriate gear via the paddles and then switch back to D when your done.

This may be considered a faff as it's not as intuitive as a true manual transmission. I do, however, believe that this is only an issue for markets such as the UK, unless one can overcome 'public road wariness'. Not something that I would personally condone. That takes us back to B-1Pilot's option 3. I would agree insomuch as a fast hot hatch (8sp auto M135i, DSG Golf R, etc.) would be the more thoughtful choice as a 'driver's car' for the UK's traffic laden roads. It is with good reason that UK car magazines rate many of these cars as 5 stars to the M5's 4.5...

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by JoM3z

I still don't understand why this is even an issue. If you want throttle response I suggest setting everything either on Sports or Sports + and leave the suspension on comfort. The M5 is targeted towards different demographic than the 1, 2, 3, and 4 series and it has to reflect that. So comparing the M5 to a 1M or a 135 is apples and oranges. You can easily find the best driving modes by playing around with the DriveLogic/Sequencial. We have 3 programmable settings, Normal Start setting, M1 and M2. I find it hard to believe that you can't find a setting that suites your driving needs. I've had my car for a year and I can unleash its power at any given time. You probably driving the car all wrong!

Drive Logic Modes 1-3
1: Delay in shifts for smoothest (but slow) gear changes
2: No delay in shifts; fast gear changes
3: Fastest possible shifting speed.

You can choose D1-D3 or S1-S3
D = Drivelogic; shifts automatically
S = Sequential: manual shifts

-Efficient - comfortable. Minimal fuel consumption
-Sport - sporty, dynamic
-Sport Plus - spontaneous, direct. Maximum dynamics.

I understand all that....I actually read the manual before I got the car and its not terribly complicated, although having said that I didn't initially realise that my M2 button had been programed to switch to Sequential.

Setting everything to Sport or Sport+ will certainly fix my problem...it will also result in the car driving around town in too low a gear and set up like its ready for the track.

If you want to understand my problem, do me a favour and try this in your car.

Select default (D1 and everything on comfort)
Set off up the road
Note the car's response to small throttle adjustments as you move through the gears....try accelerating gently from 30 - 40 or 40 - 50mph
Find a stretch of road that allows you to do a steady 50mph and wait until the car selects 7th at around 1200rpm.
Now try to gently accelerate to 60 mph
Then at a steady 50mph try selecting D2 or Sport+

If your car is like mine, what you'll find is that your car drives beautifully through the gears, responding instantly and effortlessly to all your inputs, until it hits 7th gear, at which point it stops responding to small adjustments of the throttle. What it should do is select 6th, but it doesn't.
When you then select D2 or Sport+ the car will immediately downshift 1 or 2 gears, leaving you doing the same speed but with a lot more revs. It will now be a lot very responsive to the throttle (by virtue of the higher revs) but feel like its turning too many rpm and needs to upshift

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Tanin

Not as quick but does give me the ability to change code to my liking

Lol! He's got a point SteveC.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Tanin

Not as quick but does give me the ability to change code to my liking

Out of a lifetime of cars I've only ever owned 4 autos. A MB, which was slow shifting, inefficient and awful, an X5, which was better but still not great, an M135i which was probably one of the most fun cars I've ever owned (along with the MT Z4M and E30 M3 Evo) and the M5 DCT.
For the roads that I drive, the flappy paddles are just brilliant, but I still think I'm an MT guy at heart. The M5 DCT is a brilliant piece of kit but I'm still totally convinced that it would be significantly better with an economy/comfort mode that didn't lose touch with what an M5 is all about