California ARB crackdown on catless downpipes and tune supplier

[mwlmd]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

The next time someone shames me about straightpipes hurting the environment, I'm going to quote the leafblower fact.

I assume the Raptor in the above example is not catless.

[MichaelJohn]

Originally Posted by Actor

Please explain?

The former governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger a.k.a. The Governator, had a little extracurricular fun with the maid of the house, in fact he had so much fun he fathered a child by her. He seems to have recovered quite nicely. He now owns a tank and crushes things on YouTube - what a guy. They certainly broke the mold after they made him.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by dhirm5

As long as the products don't impact emissions, such as their JB piggybacks, how can CA/CARB keep them from selling them? Is the burden of proof on BMS to show that a given part doesn't impact emissions?

Of course they impact emissions...

They change parametres such as boost pressure, ignition timing, amount of fuel injected etc. Parametres that has been finely tuned by the manufacturer to comply with emissions standards.

And, yes the burden of proof is on anyone who alters a vehicles safety- or emissions standards. The car has been certified by the OEM to comply with FMVSS (or EU) standards. It is usually illegal to alter equipment that has an impact on emissions, unless the new parts is documented not to have an adverse effect on the vehicles emissions.

It's not like in criminal law where it's up to the prosecution to prove you did something wrong. Think of it as similar to a drivers test. It's up to you to prove that you can drive, it's not the state that has to prove that you can't drive...

[M5essex]

Haha... Brilliant! Next there will be tolls to drive through CA as a non-resident and if you make too much noise or pollute more than you should, you'll be fined on the spot! Aren't governments a bunch of hypocritical mo fo crooked c u n t s....
Over hear we are taxed about a grand for the first years road tax on Mcars, or most gas guzzles. c£500 quid thereafter. Plus we pay the equivalent of $10.25 per gallon vs your $3.50 ish. Slightly off track, sorry. Just hi lighting how we are taxed on tax on tax. Saving the environment is a load of bollox, it's just about tax revenue.

[shahano]

Its too bad what is happening in California. Good luck to you guys. I hope they dont come after you.

[dhirm5]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Of course they impact emissions...

They change parametres such as boost pressure, ignition timing, amount of fuel injected etc. Parametres that has been finely tuned by the manufacturer to comply with emissions standards.

Right, but to my knowledge, they do not interfere with the emission control systems of the car - o2 sensors, cats, etc, and thus allow the car to keep emissions at acceptable levels.

If they do, I stand corrected; otherwise I fail to see why they'd take issue with a device which does whatever it does without exceeding emissions standards.

[Drm5]

Just for your information... Just received an email from BMS letting me know that my piggy was shipped.. they have no problems shipping to out of state...Still pending are my AMS downpipes which were out of stock 3 weeks ago and I will get all done with pre and mod dyno's....

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by dhirm5

Right, but to my knowledge, they do not interfere with the emission control systems of the car - o2 sensors, cats, etc, and thus allow the car to keep emissions at acceptable levels.

If they do, I stand corrected; otherwise I fail to see why they'd take issue with a device which does whatever it does without exceeding emissions standards.

The emissions are usually kept to "acceptable levels", but not necessarily to the strict levels the law stipulates.

The O2 sensor is not a magic tool that keeps the emission levels of hydrocarbons, nitrous gases (NOx), Carbon Monoxide or CO2 within legal limits whatever you do to the software.

For instance, during a visit at Cosworth they talked us through the emissions certification of their Duratec engines to be fitted in the Caterham CSR cars. For instance, changing the volume of the intake manifold (or length of the runners) necessitated a completely new software mapping as the emissions was "all over the place". The O2 sensor only reads oxygen levels in the exhaust. Oxygen is only one factor in emissions. And the O2 sensor (naturally) wasn't able to adjust for anything else than the O2 levels in the exhaust. The ECU was looking up tables in it's mapping that was made for a different volume manifold, thus creating a different air flow and torque mapping of the engine.

So, a different software (or piggyback) definitely impacts emission levels. The O2 sensor just isn't capable of maintaining the same emission levels (or keeping the engine to within emission standards) on a engine that has different hardware or software. Unfortunately it isn't as simple as that...

European piggybacks, such as the ones from AC Schnitzer, circumnavigates this by only changing the mapping outside of the emission test cycle mode (like above a certain throttle input or rpm). That way the engine is operating under OEM software during the emission test cycles and passes that with flying colours (the test cycle in EU doesn't contain any hard acceleration or high speed driving). Only during, harder driving or WOT acceleration does the piggyback adjust and increases power.

[dhirm5]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The emissions are usually kept to "acceptable levels", but not necessarily to the strict levels the law stipulates.

The O2 sensor is not a magic tool that keeps the emission levels of hydrocarbons, nitrous gases (NOx), Carbon Monoxide or CO2 within legal limits whatever you do to the software.

For instance, during a visit at Cosworth they talked us through the emissions certification of their Duratec engines to be fitted in the Caterham CSR cars. For instance, changing the volume of the intake manifold (or length of the runners) necessitated a completely new software mapping as the emissions was "all over the place". The O2 sensor only reads oxygen levels in the exhaust. Oxygen is only one factor in emissions. And the O2 sensor (naturally) wasn't able to adjust for anything else than the O2 levels in the exhaust. The ECU was looking up tables in it's mapping that was made for a different volume manifold, thus creating a different air flow and torque mapping of the engine.

So, a different software (or piggyback) definitely impacts emission levels. The O2 sensor just isn't capable of maintaining the same emission levels (or keeping the engine to within emission standards) on a engine that has different hardware or software. Unfortunately it isn't as simple as that...

European piggybacks, such as the ones from AC Schnitzer, circumnavigates this by only changing the mapping outside of the emission test cycle mode (like above a certain throttle input or rpm). That way the engine is operating under OEM software during the emission test cycles and passes that with flying colours (the test cycle in EU doesn't contain any hard acceleration or high speed driving). Only during, harder driving or WOT acceleration does the piggyback adjust and increases power.

OK - thanks for the thorough explanation.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by dhirm5

OK - thanks for the thorough explanation.

No problem

[boots]

Originally Posted by MichaelJohn

The former governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger a.k.a. The Governator, had a little extracurricular fun with the maid of the house, in fact he had so much fun he fathered a child by her. He seems to have recovered quite nicely. He now owns a tank and crushes things on YouTube - what a guy. They certainly broke the mold after they made him.

Thanks for letting actor know for me.

[ImpetuousRacer]

Originally Posted by Pertplus

I think Arizona has us beat by a wide margin.

I can drive around with my BMS no problem.... while also having a loaded gun.
Good ol AZ!

[dvpouldar26]

Originally Posted by Tom C

And as far as the "pollution" caused by these parts... it has been proven that a typical leaf blower emmits more emissions in a half hour than an F150 Raptor pick up does in 3,900 miles of driving.

http://www.edmunds.com/about/press/l...delinecom.html

LOL this makes me feel so much better about having 2 Hummer H2's.... Using the leaf lower argument to all the tree huggers out there from now on haha

[boots]

Originally Posted by Drm5

Just for your information... Just received an email from BMS letting me know that my piggy was shipped.. they have no problems shipping to out of state...Still pending are my AMS downpipes which were out of stock 3 weeks ago and I will get all done with pre and mod dyno's....

Good to hear brother.

[boots]

Originally Posted by ImpetuousRacer

I can drive around with my BMS no problem.... while also having a loaded gun.
Good ol AZ!

My back up pistol is my Rpi down pipes going under the overpass. 2nd gear floor it, switch to 3rd and hear the bang!

[NikB316]

Looks like they are able to sell everything out of state except their awesome CAN tool which is the only effective way to get rid of the CEL.

I ordered mine last week and received it literally a day before this!

I may have very well got the last CAN tool in the world!

[pillpusher84]

Originally Posted by MichaelJohn

The former governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger a.k.a. The Governator, had a little extracurricular fun with the maid of the house, in fact he had so much fun he fathered a child by her. He seems to have recovered quite nicely. He now owns a tank and crushes things on YouTube - what a guy. They certainly broke the mold after they made him.

Hey ... It was your fellow CA residents that voted the fool, in !

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by pillpusher84

Hey ... It was your fellow CA residents that voted the fool, in !

From what I understand he was a little less foolish compared with the fools that preceded and succeeded him.

[mstmng]

Can anyone tell me if bms and dtmhaus are same company? If they are not, then we can still get can tools from dtm?

[M5essex]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

From what I understand he was a little less foolish compared with the fools that preceded and succeeded him.

You are like the Oracle.... The wise one. Can I ask... Are you from the US or GB?

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by M5essex

You are like the Oracle.... The wise one. Can I ask... Are you from the US or GB?

GB.

[ImpetuousRacer]

Originally Posted by Pertplus

Very true. As long as you don't look like you might be an illegal immigrant.

Sheriff Arpaio put you in the pink undies if you do.