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      09-26-2009, 10:46 PM   #23
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The high-revving powerplants are a blast (I have an E90 M3) but the fuel economy SUCKS! I have averaged 16 MPG with my M3 for 15K miles with a combination of highway, in town, and some back road romping. I have had 1 tank that crossed 20 MPG. In these days of stricter emission standards and increasing fuel economy requirements, TT I6 for the M3 and TT-V8 for the M5 will help enormously and be quicker in most driving situations (power everywhere in the rev band, not just the top half).

The reviews of the X6 M say that there is no turbo lag due to the way they plumb the turbos. Although I am sure it is still not quite as perfectly responsive as the M3's NA V8, if they can get very very close while giving a lot more mid-range torque and much better fuel economy AND keep the weight similar to or lighter than current models, that should be a big win.
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      09-27-2009, 12:51 AM   #24
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I'm one of the few people that is disappointed that M is ending their NA reign. While I don't have any problem with turbo charged cars, they are definitely not in short supply. What made BMW so well known, and M division so well revered, was their amazing engines that stood toe to toe with all the other Turbo'd cars out their.

What is going to make the next M3 or M5 different from other cars with similar performance? For me, right now its the high revs that intrigues. More so over the C63's monstrous torque and sound. If the M5 is using the V8TT from the X5M then that means no more high revs. A 6.8k red line is boring, and nothing special at all today.

I understand most people here like turbos, however I don't feel it has a place under an M badged hood. Innovation is all well and good, but innovation at the expense of losing who or what M division is, is not the correct solution. I have plenty of other choices if I wanted a turbo'd car. My choices for a NA car are now 1 brand less, and sadly they were one of the best at it.
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      09-27-2009, 01:04 AM   #25
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I also am calling it now, that maybe not on the M5 after the F10, but at some point they will probably claim that they will be returning to 'roots' with a NA engine. And use it as some kind of big marketing scheme, when truly they shouldn't of stopped in the first place.
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      09-27-2009, 02:00 AM   #26
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There goes the amazing sound of the V10.

A bit of cop out. The M-division normally has made a M5 specific powerplant from scratch. Losing a little of its individuality.


Please don't also put in the X5/X6 M "slushbox automatic".
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      09-27-2009, 05:30 AM   #27
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I am more than satisfied with this decision!

Now only if the M5 stays under $100K...which I hope is the case.
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      09-27-2009, 05:51 AM   #28
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I do not think there is anything to worry about. To fastest Prosches have turbos (911 Turbo, 911 GT2, Cayenne Turbo/S, Panamera Turbo/S). The X5/X6 M engine rev up till 7K, and look at the new McLaren MP4-12C, it rev up till 8.5K and does have biturbo. Look at the RS6 how it fucks up the M5 (i'd anyway take an M5 over an RS6). The previous RS4 also had biturbo, the SLR had a supercharger, the Corvette ZR1 has a suparcharger, the GT-R has biturbo and the next AMG will also get Biturbo, the NA 6.2l V8 will be remplaced by a Bi-Turbo 5.0l V8, it will come with the next CLS AMG. It is the opprtunity for BMW to show that they don't only do the "best" naturaly aspiratied engines but also forced induction engines. They won the engine award with their 3.0l L6 and 4.4l V8 Twin-Turbo engines, and they'll win the next times with their new 3.0l L6 and 4.4l V8 TwinPowerTurbo engines and also with their up-coming 1.35l L3 and 1.8l L4 TwinPowerTurbo engines.
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      09-27-2009, 09:20 AM   #29
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Why not use the same engine V10.
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      09-27-2009, 09:41 AM   #30
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This is the demise of m cars!! I understood that they used the turbo engine on x6m and x5m , but to use the same engine on m5 is too much!! And what are they doing now- trying to keep up with audi?!!? I thought it was the other way around!!
I was planning to buy an m5 but after hearing this i will go for some porsche i think!!
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      09-27-2009, 09:44 AM   #31
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Twin turbo V8 easy?

I may be naive, but how many twin turbo V-engines out there have the turbos located in the Vee of the motor to reduce turbo lag and increase thermal efficiency-that is the only new thing I have seen in years in high performance motor development!


http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/21/d...turbo-4-4l-v8/
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      09-27-2009, 12:32 PM   #32
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Guys give it a chance. I find the V10 engine to be miles ahead of anything I have ever owned but let the ///M team show us their colours and then judge. Times are changing and we as enthusiasts will need to adapt just like the manufacturers have. Hell I hate driving SMG in the city but am I having to adapt and now I find the SMG more engaging than the 6spd. in some weird way.
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      09-27-2009, 02:51 PM   #33
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Read what Levi wrote over and over again. He summed it up very well. In addition, flushing the M brand Down the toilet just because the engine is TT now, is just pure sad. This is a car with heritage, with culture, with distinct handling character. There is really more in M5 then just the engine. Trust in the brand, love it or just leave it, and don't cry about it.
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      09-27-2009, 03:36 PM   #34
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I have a different more subtle point. Forget the FI v. NA conversation. Each of us will take our own stance on that depending on our beliefs, opinions and POV to driving, feel and control over a car.

Rather, I would like to focus on the fact that regardless of what the engine has been, ALL //M engines were built specifically for the //M car. Never have they used an engine from their regular line-up. Never have they just taken an off-shelf engine found in non-M// and just tuned it. They have always started from scratch; not always from complete scratch but at least if it wasn't from scratch the base of it was an engine found on another //M product (see S65 for example).

What worries me is not the switch to a FI engine, what worries me is the switch in philosophy of making their own engines, to taking an off-the shelf one and just tuning it. That is what convinces me //M is dead, and convinces me Audi will be the new king. Funny how the automotive world works, AMG has become //M and //M has become AMG.

Cheers,
e46e92
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      09-27-2009, 04:13 PM   #35
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1.) Id like to see BMW stick with Weight Savings and Improved aerodynamics and Handling if they do decide to go Turbo.

2.) Id like to see BMW drop the SIZE of the TT V8s. I think a 4.0L is a perfect size. Maybe take the M3 v8 and put two turbos and keep a 7500 -8000 RPM line.

3.) Id like to see KURS systems implimented. ( F1 boost tech )

4.) Id really really really NOT like to see a V6 TT on an M3, I'd want them to stick with a I6 TT but a complete new design. BMW is known for its I6 and to V6 a M3 would be a crime when your probably the LEADERS of I6 engines.

5.) Id also like to see BMW work on their engine sounds.... work with different configs with the TT 6 and 8's to see how we can retain that beautiful sound that the natural engines make.

6.) Id like to see the M cars in general get wider more noticable bodies while actually getting smaller and weight conscious.

7.) I HUGELY AGREE with post above mine.... KEEP M division engines separate models then the rest of the line up.... Ok I get it the 4.4l TT is a great engine and its probably best for the M SUVs. But thats where I draw the line.

8.) I WANT BMW to recreate the BEAUTY AND EXCITEMENT of cars such as the E39 M5 and the e46 M3 and even the E30 M3 ( or hopefully the next 1 series E30 M3 reincarnation ). They need that excitement and passion.

9.) ^ #8 brings me to #9 ^ They NEED to figure out Manual Transmissions and keep them and reconfig and rev-match features and yet keep it raw and a pure drivers tranny not these ( AMAZING, but sometimes undesired paddles ).

10.) its flipping 2009...... M cars should not have options such as extended leather and NAV. Those should be standard.

11.) they need to bring back RAW drivers cars like the M coupes... people love them or hate them but its that type of love or hate reputation that makes them such great cars.
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      09-27-2009, 05:45 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Rather, I would like to focus on the fact that regardless of what the engine has been, ALL //M engines were built specifically for the //M car. Never have they used an engine from their regular line-up. Never have they just taken an off-shelf engine found in non-M// and just tuned it. They have always started from scratch; not always from complete scratch but at least if it wasn't from scratch the base of it was an engine found on another //M product (see S65 for example).

What worries me is not the switch to a FI engine, what worries me is the switch in philosophy of making their own engines, to taking an off-the shelf one and just tuning it. That is what convinces me //M is dead, and convinces me Audi will be the new king. Funny how the automotive world works, AMG has become //M and //M has become AMG.


Exactly my thoughts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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      09-28-2009, 12:28 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
I have a different more subtle point. Forget the FI v. NA conversation. Each of us will take our own stance on that depending on our beliefs, opinions and POV to driving, feel and control over a car.

Rather, I would like to focus on the fact that regardless of what the engine has been, ALL //M engines were built specifically for the //M car. Never have they used an engine from their regular line-up. Never have they just taken an off-shelf engine found in non-M// and just tuned it. They have always started from scratch; not always from complete scratch but at least if it wasn't from scratch the base of it was an engine found on another //M product (see S65 for example).

What worries me is not the switch to a FI engine, what worries me is the switch in philosophy of making their own engines, to taking an off-the shelf one and just tuning it. That is what convinces me //M is dead, and convinces me Audi will be the new king. Funny how the automotive world works, AMG has become //M and //M has become AMG.

Cheers,
e46e92
I'm with you on this, but the E39 M5 engine was a retuned version of a non-M engine
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      09-28-2009, 12:30 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3roar View Post
1.) Id like to see BMW stick with Weight Savings and Improved aerodynamics and Handling if they do decide to go Turbo.

2.) Id like to see BMW drop the SIZE of the TT V8s. I think a 4.0L is a perfect size. Maybe take the M3 v8 and put two turbos and keep a 7500 -8000 RPM line.

3.) Id like to see KURS systems implimented. ( F1 boost tech )

4.) Id really really really NOT like to see a V6 TT on an M3, I'd want them to stick with a I6 TT but a complete new design. BMW is known for its I6 and to V6 a M3 would be a crime when your probably the LEADERS of I6 engines.

5.) Id also like to see BMW work on their engine sounds.... work with different configs with the TT 6 and 8's to see how we can retain that beautiful sound that the natural engines make.

6.) Id like to see the M cars in general get wider more noticable bodies while actually getting smaller and weight conscious.

7.) I HUGELY AGREE with post above mine.... KEEP M division engines separate models then the rest of the line up.... Ok I get it the 4.4l TT is a great engine and its probably best for the M SUVs. But thats where I draw the line.

8.) I WANT BMW to recreate the BEAUTY AND EXCITEMENT of cars such as the E39 M5 and the e46 M3 and even the E30 M3 ( or hopefully the next 1 series E30 M3 reincarnation ). They need that excitement and passion.

9.) ^ #8 brings me to #9 ^ They NEED to figure out Manual Transmissions and keep them and reconfig and rev-match features and yet keep it raw and a pure drivers tranny not these ( AMAZING, but sometimes undesired paddles ).

10.) its flipping 2009...... M cars should not have options such as extended leather and NAV. Those should be standard.

11.) they need to bring back RAW drivers cars like the M coupes... people love them or hate them but its that type of love or hate reputation that makes them such great cars.
It's KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System). You speak of weight reductions yet adding KERS, KERS is pretty heavy, but it would be pretty sick to have on a road car
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      09-28-2009, 01:04 AM   #39
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sad, I really wanted to go from E90 M3 to F10 M5 and have that V10.
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      09-28-2009, 02:46 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWPower06 View Post
I'm with you on this, but the E39 M5 engine was a retuned version of a non-M engine
Thanks, at least one who knows what he is talking about! Not every M-engine was a pure M development. And lets wait for the final car. I guess it'll kick ass.
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      09-28-2009, 07:50 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
Hey guys remember that time when the M division used to build epic engines?

Interesting comment. What's your idea of an "epic engine"?

Does anyone really think that the performance and quality of M cars if going to go down with the next generation? I personally believe the next iteration of M cars will destroy the current models in both performance and fuel economy.

It's funny how everyone is knocking the M division for using the same engine from the X5/X6M models yet no one mentions that the M5/M6 share the same engine and the M3's V8 came from that same engine.
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      09-28-2009, 07:56 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
I have a different more subtle point. Forget the FI v. NA conversation. Each of us will take our own stance on that depending on our beliefs, opinions and POV to driving, feel and control over a car.

Rather, I would like to focus on the fact that regardless of what the engine has been, ALL //M engines were built specifically for the //M car. Never have they used an engine from their regular line-up. Never have they just taken an off-shelf engine found in non-M// and just tuned it. They have always started from scratch; not always from complete scratch but at least if it wasn't from scratch the base of it was an engine found on another //M product (see S65 for example).

What worries me is not the switch to a FI engine, what worries me is the switch in philosophy of making their own engines, to taking an off-the shelf one and just tuning it. That is what convinces me //M is dead, and convinces me Audi will be the new king. Funny how the automotive world works, AMG has become //M and //M has become AMG.

Cheers,
e46e92
LOL your post if full of fail.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/25/a...win-turbod-v8/

Tell us again about how AMG is becoming //M and vise versa?

When are people going to realize that the days of gas guzzlers are coming to an end? At least the german companies are being proactive and developing new technology to stay ahead of the game.
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      09-28-2009, 09:15 AM   #43
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      09-28-2009, 10:36 AM   #44
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