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      03-12-2014, 11:51 PM   #1
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Why M5 HP is Rated the Way it is?

Having driven my 2014 M5 w/Comp Package (and CCB) long enough to get through the break-in period, I think that BMW has (under)rated the car at 560/575 HP to simply give themselves room to bring out the 2018 G version with an (under)rated 600 HP, less weight etc. Having owned and driven the E60 for about four years, it is absolutely clear now that the F10 is far more powerful (and better in virtually every way)...but that BMW needed to give themselves room with the G version . This equates to modestly higher rated HP/~15-20% weight savings on the G version, optional AWD and yet another killer M5. That's my theory on why BMW has underrated this car the way it has. Thoughts folks?
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      03-13-2014, 01:48 AM   #2
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Do we expect 15-20% weight savings on the next gen M5?

That would be awesome, but will be around 200kg saved. The F8x only managed to loose 80kg over it's predecessor..,
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      03-13-2014, 06:33 AM   #3
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Bmw rate it as a minimum hp. One that the engine can produce irrespective of atmospheric conditions. So not necessarily under rates but minimum rated.

AWD will add to weight so overall I wouldn't expect more than 10% weight reduction for the g model.
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      03-13-2014, 08:59 AM   #4
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Was guessing on the weight savings. Perhaps 10% is the right tgt, but I would not be surprised to see it greater than this given the move to carbon fibre everything (ignoring AWD). My point is that from a pure marketing perspective, I think BMW may be trying to leave room to debut a (meaningfully underrated) 600HP G version. Enthusiasts will figure out what the power really is, but BMW has a public image to maintain of being forward-thinking and green (witness the i-brand). Releasing a properly-rated 700HP G version may draw too much attention from non-enthusiasts. BMW needs to cover its bases. Just my theory on the marketed power ratings of the current M5 and the next G model. Agree/disagree?
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      03-13-2014, 09:30 AM   #5
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I agree. I think that for the G30 M5, their targets will be lighter weight with small claimed horsepower increase to say 580hp or 590hp, but will be underrated again. If the F80 M3/F82 M4 tells us anything about the future of the M5, ///M will be looking to keep the luxury aspect of the M5, while at the same time reducing the weight and increasing the performance. BMW claims only a 9hp increase from the E92 to the F82, so I don't think we'll be seeing any large hp increases in the next M5 model either. BMW doesn't want to start horsepower wars, so I think seeing a 600hp or higher M5 is not their direction. So far we haven't seen any major manufacturer put a 600+hp engine in a luxury sedan, although I think the next generation CTS-V might break 600hp from the factory. I think a 10% weight reduction would be very reasonable. Given the F10 M5 weighs 4,400lbs, 10% would be 440lbs, bringing the weight under 4,000lbs which puts it in E39 M5 curb weight range.

Unfortunately I think the chassis's are going to keep getting bigger. Which is the number one thing that worries me about the G30 M5. I don't want to feel like I'm driving a 7-series. Overall, with the G30 M5 we are going to see more tech features, more luxury, and more performance. Who knows, ///M Division might even be the first company in the world to integrate hybrid technology into a bonefide ///M car. The hybrid, battery/gasoline engine technology is just starting to mature and be applicable to high performance. The Porsche 918 Spyder, McLaren P1, and BMW i8 are the forerunners to the future I think. We may seen a next generation M5, with a small battery pack that will complement the gasoline engine performance, but still weight less than 4,000lbs. The real big question is, where is the gasoline engine technology going next? There's already been rumors that the next generation X5M and X6M are going to use a Twin Turbo V8 again. I'll be pretty upset if the G30 M5 uses another Twin Turbo V8, even if it 20% more efficient and makes 10% more power. But I'll be more upset if they take away any more cylinders from the engine of the M5. I'm just not sure what the next generation ///M engines are going to be like, but I'm betting money on hybrid technology coming to ///M platforms in the future.

The F10 M5 may be my last M5. I think I want to go exotic next. That new Lamborghini Huracan looks amazing, or even say a 2010 Gallardo LP-560 would be sweet. I'm pretty sure I want to go back to Naturally Aspirated engines though. Turbo's are fun, but I think the S63tu Twin Turbo V8 may be the last good sounding engine to come from ///M. The S55 in the new F80 M3 is disappointing, and I'm not sure straightpiping that engine would help. Time will tell.
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      03-13-2014, 10:40 AM   #6
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All good points. My bet is 600HP published, probably 700HP delivered using a combination of a more powerful TT V8 and some hybrid technology a la the new hypercars. 10%+ weight reduction unless one options in AWD. Agree on the sound of the new M3/4...nowhere near as growly as the M5's TTV8, but then it's missing a couple of cylinders. Having said that, the new M3/4 will likely be an incredible joy to drive given its smaller, more nimble, weight-reduced nature. Funnily enough, the M crowd obesses about BMW losing its way (a passionate lot!) and yet each generation of M cars gets significantly better in most ways (my experience). M has built up so much goodwill with me after 15 years that I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on next-gen products. The upcoming M3/M4 will be amazing for its class. The next-gen M5 will also be amazing. There is too much passion within M for it to be any different. These are great cars.
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      03-13-2014, 12:20 PM   #7
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My guess is next M5 will either go with hybrid power solution(which may use a I6 to replace V8) or an updated Twinturbo V8. I love the power of turbo engine, but deep in my heart I miss NA engine.
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      03-13-2014, 12:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodandEvil View Post
My guess is next M5 will either go with hybrid power solution(which may use a I6 to replace V8) or an updated Twinturbo V8. I love the power of turbo engine, but deep in my heart I miss NA engine.
I don't think that they will go with a hybrid setup for the next M5. I just can't see that happening. The M5 is just too big of a car and... past history has shown us that these cars are only getting bigger and bigger. Pretty sure my E9X M3 had the same interior dimensions as an E39 M5.

Now, if they were to revive the M1 I could seem them using that type of technology like the Porsche 918.
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      03-13-2014, 12:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodandEvil View Post
My guess is next M5 will either go with hybrid power solution(which may use a I6 to replace V8) or an updated Twinturbo V8. I love the power of turbo engine, but deep in my heart I miss NA engine.
Here's evidence that a turbo engine can be every bit as visceral as an NA engine. They just had to take the time to do it right, which Ferrari is the first company to truly try to. Read about how sound and power delivery were some of the main focuses of the engine and not necessarily efficiency, although it is much more efficient than the old California engine. I'll bet money that it gets a better EPA fuel consumption than the S63tu.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...n-decades.html
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      03-13-2014, 01:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Here's evidence that a turbo engine can be every bit as visceral as an NA engine. They just had to take the time to do it right, which Ferrari is the first company to truly try to. Read about how sound and power delivery were some of the main focuses of the engine and not necessarily efficiency, although it is much more efficient than the old California engine. I'll bet money that it gets a better EPA fuel consumption than the S63tu.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...n-decades.html
Apart from keeping the flat plane and some info on the exhaust manifolds, there wasn't really anything else than Ferrari PR talk... No tech details or power graphs etc... And the main (and only?) reason behind this engine WAS fuel efficiency. It redlines at a "low" 7500rpm and has a low CR of "only" 9.4:1, which is lower than the BMW S63 and S55 engines!. Not sure if this Ferrari engine is more advanced than the S63Tu or especially the S55...

Don't know about the EPA fuel consumption, but it has worse EU combined fuel economy figures than the S63Tu...

The F10 M5 needs 9,9l/100km
California needs 10,5l/100km
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      03-13-2014, 01:36 PM   #11
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The next-gen M turbo engines will likely be louder as BMW has no doubt taken into account the feedback from its followers that the engine sound and feel is as important as ever. I expect similarly novel solutions as to what Ferrari is up to. Piping in engine sound is not optimal and I imagine the folks at M are acutely aware of it.
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      03-13-2014, 01:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Do we expect 15-20% weight savings on the next gen M5?

That would be awesome, but will be around 200kg saved. The F8x only managed to loose 80kg over it's predecessor..,
The F8X predecessor was an E series car, not a fat boy F series car.

I would expect a weight reduction of at least 450-500lbs. Expect the next m5 car to have a weight under 4000lbs.

Also if info posted earlier is anything to go by, then we may also expect carbon fiber wheels.
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      03-13-2014, 01:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
The F8X predecessor was an E series car, not a fat boy F series car.

I would expect a weight reduction of at least 450-500lbs. Expect the next m5 car to have a weight under 4000lbs.

Also if info posted earlier is anything to go by, then we may also expect carbon fiber wheels.
Yeah, but compared to the E46 the E9x M3 also was a "fat boy" car.

Anyway, according to this article the M5 actually could loose as much as 180kg (400lbs)!!! (the regular 5-series "only" loose 80kg):

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-...-exec-express/
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      03-14-2014, 11:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Here's evidence that a turbo engine can be every bit as visceral as an NA engine. They just had to take the time to do it right, which Ferrari is the first company to truly try to. Read about how sound and power delivery were some of the main focuses of the engine and not necessarily efficiency, although it is much more efficient than the old California engine. I'll bet money that it gets a better EPA fuel consumption than the S63tu.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...n-decades.html
Apart from keeping the flat plane and some info on the exhaust manifolds, there wasn't really anything else than Ferrari PR talk... No tech details or power graphs etc... And the main (and only?) reason behind this engine WAS fuel efficiency. It redlines at a "low" 7500rpm and has a low CR of "only" 9.4:1, which is lower than the BMW S63 and S55 engines!. Not sure if this Ferrari engine is more advanced than the S63Tu or especially the S55...

Don't know about the EPA fuel consumption, but it has worse EU combined fuel economy figures than the S63Tu...

The F10 M5 needs 9,9l/100km
California needs 10,5l/100km
Good points.
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      03-14-2014, 12:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Yeah, but compared to the E46 the E9x M3 also was a "fat boy" car.

Anyway, according to this article the M5 actually could loose as much as 180kg (400lbs)!!! (the regular 5-series "only" loose 80kg):

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-...-exec-express/
I would swap my car for it now -
Less Weight
Less Weight
Less Weight please M Engineeeeeeers!!!

Since I know they have people assigned to reading our forum -
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      03-14-2014, 12:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
I agree. I think that for the G30 M5, their targets will be lighter weight with small claimed horsepower increase to say 580hp or 590hp, but will be underrated again. If the F80 M3/F82 M4 tells us anything about the future of the M5, ///M will be looking to keep the luxury aspect of the M5, while at the same time reducing the weight and increasing the performance. BMW claims only a 9hp increase from the E92 to the F82, so I don't think we'll be seeing any large hp increases in the next M5 model either. BMW doesn't want to start horsepower wars, so I think seeing a 600hp or higher M5 is not their direction. So far we haven't seen any major manufacturer put a 600+hp engine in a luxury sedan, although I think the next generation CTS-V might break 600hp from the factory. I think a 10% weight reduction would be very reasonable. Given the F10 M5 weighs 4,400lbs, 10% would be 440lbs, bringing the weight under 4,000lbs which puts it in E39 M5 curb weight range.

Unfortunately I think the chassis's are going to keep getting bigger. Which is the number one thing that worries me about the G30 M5. I don't want to feel like I'm driving a 7-series. Overall, with the G30 M5 we are going to see more tech features, more luxury, and more performance. Who knows, ///M Division might even be the first company in the world to integrate hybrid technology into a bonefide ///M car. The hybrid, battery/gasoline engine technology is just starting to mature and be applicable to high performance. The Porsche 918 Spyder, McLaren P1, and BMW i8 are the forerunners to the future I think. We may seen a next generation M5, with a small battery pack that will complement the gasoline engine performance, but still weight less than 4,000lbs. The real big question is, where is the gasoline engine technology going next? There's already been rumors that the next generation X5M and X6M are going to use a Twin Turbo V8 again. I'll be pretty upset if the G30 M5 uses another Twin Turbo V8, even if it 20% more efficient and makes 10% more power. But I'll be more upset if they take away any more cylinders from the engine of the M5. I'm just not sure what the next generation ///M engines are going to be like, but I'm betting money on hybrid technology coming to ///M platforms in the future.

The F10 M5 may be my last M5. I think I want to go exotic next. That new Lamborghini Huracan looks amazing, or even say a 2010 Gallardo LP-560 would be sweet. I'm pretty sure I want to go back to Naturally Aspirated engines though. Turbo's are fun, but I think the S63tu Twin Turbo V8 may be the last good sounding engine to come from ///M. The S55 in the new F80 M3 is disappointing, and I'm not sure straightpiping that engine would help. Time will tell.
Agree and disagree
Agree it will have to lose weight
Disagree that Hybrid tech is gonna make it next generation but again agree it is in the future , but then they will Have to Come Up With Specific Headphone PUMPING UP THE E60 AND F10 Recorded sounds in our ears - Then bye bye M cars... Hahahahha
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      03-14-2014, 12:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soooma View Post
Agree and disagree
Agree it will have to lose weight
Disagree that Hybrid tech is gonna make it next generation but again agree it is in the future , but then they will Have to Come Up With Specific Headphone PUMPING UP THE E60 AND F10 Recorded sounds in our ears - Then bye bye M cars... Hahahahha
The beauty of hybrid tech is that you can combine a high rpm NA engine with a electric motor. The electric motor takes care of low down torque and responsiveness while the NA engine can be tuned to be a high rpm screamer that doesn't need a lot of torque in the low to mid range.

And the electric/hybrid part also takes care of low CO2 numbers, helping manufacturers meet EU demands of 95g/km CO2 by 2020 (130g/km by 2015). For instance the 918 Spyder has a official CO2 number of 70-72g/km, while the new M3/M4 "only" manages 194g/km...

Even though I doubt it, we could hope for a high rpm NA I6 or V8 in the M5's future, combined with hybrid power.

Hybrid's could actually help ressurect/save the NA engine.
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      03-14-2014, 01:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The beauty of hybrid tech is that you can combine a high rpm NA engine with a electric motor. The electric motor takes care of low down torque and responsiveness while the NA engine can be tuned to be a high rpm screamer that doesn't need a lot of torque in the low to mid range.

And the electric/hybrid part also takes care of low CO2 numbers, helping manufacturers meet EU demands of 95g/km CO2 by 2020 (130g/km by 2015). For instance the 918 Spyder has a official CO2 number of 70-72g/km, while the new M3/M4 "only" manages 194g/km...

Even though I doubt it, we could hope for a high rpm NA I6 or V8 in the M5's future, combined with hybrid power.

Hybrid's could actually help ressurect/save the NA engine.
Nice take on Hybridization of M5 -
Brace yourself for the the M Sound Headphones -
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      03-14-2014, 03:16 PM   #19
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Nice take on Hybridization of M5 -
Brace yourself for the the M Sound Headphones -
Do you think that the hybrid Porsche 918 Spyder needs headphones as well?
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      03-14-2014, 03:25 PM   #20
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Do you think that the hybrid Porsche 918 Spyder needs headphones as well?
You know that Porsche was able to figure out how to keep a good V8 exhauste note with Turbos Suffocating the Exhauste -
I hear a Turbo Panamera not long ago and was amazing !!
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      03-14-2014, 03:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
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You know that Porsche was able to figure out how to keep a good V8 exhauste note with Turbos Suffocating the Exhauste -
I hear a Turbo Panamera not long ago and was amazing !!
The 918 isn't a turbo...

But the Panamera sound like a AMG V8 (not bad). Because of the cross bank exhaust manifold on the S63Tu the warble of a cross plane crank V8 is gone. Creating a more flat, race like engine note. Not as warm and burbly as on a Panamera or AMG, but more hard and "racey" perhaps.
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      03-14-2014, 04:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Not as warm and burbly as on a Panamera or AMG, but more hard and "racey" perhaps.
I, for one, am very fond of the sound of my motor. I wouldn't trade it for the chest thumping sound of the AMG motors.
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