Motortrend: Why the F10 M5 May Be Automatic-Only

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by richardg

First of all to all the purists out there. We DON'T PAY THE BILLS AT ANY AUTOMOTIVE COMPANY that large. M3's, CLK Blacks, GT whatevers are not what keeps people employed. 3s, cayennes, E-Classes, and stuff like this do though. Honestly it is probably for the best. If we kept the high revving engines and less efficient transmissions BMW would have to make more cars to offset them. You would end up with more low power cars in the brand and many of you seem ready to scream saying it is diluting the brand and changing the image. Truth is that the image has been changed for a long time now. When you say bmw to most people they think luxury, not a pure bred sports car. Sporty cars are what makes BMW not mercedes or lexus. Thing is though most buyers who spend that kind of cash want a luxury car first and a sporty car second. Not to mention a sporty car to most people isn't much of anything. You could give an SL to most and they would think it is sporty. Hell a 335i has a nice torque kick down low to make most think they have the fastest thing around. (though to most things on the road they do) Look at the industry as a whole. What do you have in your car that makes it any better than a legacy for the money. (flame suit on, though in my defense I can name many individual great things about bmw) The things that make a luxury car special can be found in just about anything today STANDARD. Hell they aren't even special anymore. Heated seats, nav, leather, and even stability and traction control is mandated for next year. You really expect to sell a premium car to premium buyers and not have standard leather or auto dimming mirrors as standard and not piss many off along the way. Digressing here for a sec but that is just ridiculous that you pay a premium package in a premium car for stuff that honestly should just be standard. Then on top of that you want to make these cars less efficient. You can't expect to stay in business for a long time with a product that on the surface isn't any better than the rest of the lot. The mustang 5.0 is a great example of a means to an end. The m3 is a better car overall (imo) but you get nearly the same outcome for way less money in a more efficient setup (fuel wise) Most of you wouldn't buy the mustang as it isn't what you want in a car. I can understand that. But can you honestly say you would buy a car if it had no option for nav, heated seats, and all the other luxo barge stuff that I see most of the users here with. There isn't anything wrong with that either. Even if you would buy the M5 lotus edition model you would be one of maybe 20 real world buyers. How many of you have 6mt over DCT in an M3. And even though it came out later who bought the 6mt over the SMG in the M5 e60 when made available. What do you care if the car is DCT or Auto if it accomplishes the same thing overall. (I am no engineer so I don't claim to know if one is truly better or not) I can understand you say things about engine response and the benefits of high revving motors and whatnot, but it just doesn't make sense to a company that is known for it's prestige more than it's performance these days. Hell even porsche succeeded well with the cayenne. Many complained in the beginning and still do. But it ended up being the savior of porsche. If they dropped the cayenne they wouldn't have been able to make the GT3s we all love so much. Here is what it comes down to really. It is better for the planet and the future. One day fuel will be gone. Whether it takes 20 years or 200. We have to make steps in the right direction. The environment is also at risk. Would you want to be that one company that is still known for not being green. It is going to happen eventually. Just like smoking. You will become a leper for not being efficient or green. Like hummer buyers became at one point. If you want your car to be a bat shit insane high revving, non turbo, lightweight pollution box it is going to cost you. Are you willing to pay for it if it costs another 10k? Maybe, well how about if it costs you another 30-40k? That is what bmw would have to do if it doesn't meet regulations. (I don't know the numbers. Making shit up but you get the idea) You are going to have to pay the fines as they will be passed on to the customer. Even if you would pay most won't. On top of that most of you are full of it and would just go get a porsche or something higher end anyway at that point. And that would take sales from bmw and ultimately could crumble the brand. None of us wants this. It is inevitable, change will have to come to ALL BRANDS. Unless you are paying 200k + for a car.

All of this is my opinion and if I am wrong please just point it out. I am no statistician, engineer, or accountant so maybe I don't know what the fuck I am talking about.

well said...~Frost

[footie]

Originally Posted by MI6

Are you serious Footie?

This is a sport auto tranny- not DCT.......

Too many pints at the pub I see....

Are you sure as this was a photo from this car here. Check it out yourself.

http://allcarnews.wordpress.com/2010...-335is-review/

[MI6]

Originally Posted by footie

Are you sure as this was a photo from this car here. Check it out yourself.

http://allcarnews.wordpress.com/2010...-335is-review/

Good point.............


At the end of the day I guess all that matters is not whether it is an auto or a DCT (especially since the line has become so blurred)but rather how it "feels" to you, the driver.

And come very soon we'll all know the answer to that question.

[BMWBoss]

I would never buy this car without a 6MT available...pissed off with BMW beyond words

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Absolutely footie. There is Porsche PDK too - 516ft-lbs in the Turbo S. Probably close to that in the Panamera too - and yes I know that the two vehicles use totally different DCT units.

BTW, Fixed your more/much error.



Could be either I suppose, but I am skeptical to say the least. KERS could work with DCT or Steptronic, and "more polished" is pretty subjective.

Originally Posted by auggiem3

Mkoesel - you rock!

I'm not a tech guy so its always daunting to evaluate which postings contribute real knowledge vs. rantings littered with inaccuracies portrayed as fact.

+1

Great technical info that some of us aren't fully up to speed on.

Originally Posted by footie

The whole speculation of whether its an auto or not will only be confirmed for sure when the final spec of the car is released but personally I don't see the big problem as some/most others clearly do, maybe I understand this car's role in the M line-up a bit better. As to shape of the lever as confirmation to the gearbox means very little either way as it's not really connect to anything, definitely not the gearbox in any mechanical sense of the word.

There's three things that you should really want to know for sure

1: will it be quicker than the one it replaced?
2: will it out perform the one it replaces in every way?
3: will it still fulfil the role of an M car?

The first two are a given, the third is one you must think about most of all, but if things like FI, automatics and electric power steering are a no-go then you will be very disappointed with BMWs in the future and with nearly all of the competition because this are things that all of them are switching to.

Keep in mind, not everyone cares about this car being a pure track machine like the original M program ideology.

Originally Posted by BMWBoss

I would never buy this car without a 6MT available...pissed off with BMW beyond words

You are one of about a dozen potenial buyers that would exclude this car for lacking a MT. The reality is that this class of car hardly needs a MT as it isn't a pure track car. The target for the F10 M5 is now the Pana TT. Unless you are a pro race driver, even if it has MT you are still going to get owned by the faster, more technologically advanced PDK.

[uhn2000]

Originally Posted by Frosty

well said...~Frost

+1

[conradb]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

You had me right up until there...



By what measure?



"The DCT clutch pack"? Which one? You make it sound like there is only one type in existence which all DCT transmission are a slave to.



Not even close. The current M-DCT in the M3 (as well as others used by Audi, Porsche, etc.) absolutely does have two wet clutches in it, and they are laid out in a concentric fashion - completely different from the clutch packs used with an automatic transmission's planetary sets.



No. It's true that the current M-DCT uses a conventional step-down helical gear train like a manual transmission, but the major different between the DCT and the Steptronic is that the DCT has twin output shafts which allow the transmission to engage two gear simulteneous and switch between them in a near instant - much quicker than 100ms.



The M-DCT is a true dual-clutch transmission and can execute a shift in 50ms or even less. BMW's current Steptronic 8 speed cannot do that, though in theory it could be made to. And there are other torque-converter + planetary-set transmission are quicker. But to say that the different between DCT and Steptronic is "all in the software" is total bunk.



Even if that is so (source?) clearly the current M-DCT clutches last much longer, and so do those from Audi and Porsche (and others).



Wrong again, Porsche is working on them.



Baseless speculation and exaggeration. In all liklihood 8 speed DCTs are in development now and will be available very soon.

Yes, adding more ratios to a DCT is more of a packaging challenge than adding more ratios to a convential automatic. But this does not make it impossible to do so - no more than a today's 6 speed manual was impossible back when we only had four and five speeds.

Mercedes' new DCT does shifts in 100ms.

http://www.benzinsider.com/2008/11/a...agazine-award/

Can you cite where the M-DCT shifts faster?


The auto ZF on the 335i claimed 100ms shift times as well. So where is the difference in terms of performance?

[FLOSS M]

I have driven the X5M and the transmission feels totally different than the DCT in my M3. The shifts feel soft under full throttle and are not crisp like the DCT. Hope this will not be the case for the new M5/6

[Racer5M3]

Think of it this way: u can just hit the gas and go!

[e92_m3]

Originally Posted by Frosty

well said...~Frost

+2!

[Nutballa]

Originally Posted by 1on135_deal

this is BMW going appealing to commercial market place; honestly that stinks but i guess works for them, maybe its time to move on the porsches =X

Porsche 997 S is a nice substitute

[footie]

Originally Posted by conradb

Mercedes' new DCT does shifts in 100ms.

http://www.benzinsider.com/2008/11/a...agazine-award/

Can you cite where the M-DCT shifts faster?


The auto ZF on the 335i claimed 100ms shift times as well. So where is the difference in terms of performance?

The whole 200ms thing that most DCT quote isn't full throttle upshifts at maximum revs, it's the longest time between de-selecting one gear and re-selecting another which generally is at it's longest when the transmission is in auto mode and re-selecting a gear on the same shaft, i.e. 4th down to 2nd. At it's quickest which is generally what happened when accelerating at maximum attack all DCTs will complete the shift in the blink of an eye.

Originally Posted by DDS335i

I have driven the X5M and the transmission feels totally different than the DCT in my M3. The shifts feel soft under full throttle and are not crisp like the DCT. Hope this will not be the case for the new M5/6

I take it you are talking about the kick you get on upshifts when in S5/6 mode of the M-DCT, if so then you are right to think that an automatic won't give you that, well that is as far as I am aware it can't.

[conradb]

Originally Posted by footie

The whole 200ms thing that most DCT quote isn't full throttle upshifts at maximum revs, it's the longest time between de-selecting one gear and re-selecting another which generally is at it's longest when the transmission is in auto mode and re-selecting a gear on the same shaft, i.e. 4th down to 2nd. At it's quickest which is generally what happened when accelerating at maximum attack all DCTs will complete the shift in the blink of an eye.

The human eye blinks in approx 150ms

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_fast_c...uman_eye_blink

[mkoesel]

True footie - other non-M DCT equipped BMW's anyway.

But remember, he did not say that no BMW with DCT had a park button, he said that no BMW with Steptronic is without one. While tmay only be true as matter of circumstance (rather than necessity) today, I believe that it is a reasonably sound deduction to suggest that BMW has no plans to start building Steptronic equipped vehicles with no explicit Park button or Park function. Therefore the lack of park on the M5 prototype is a reasonably good sign. Well, it is if you are making the leap of faith that this particular part of the test car mimics production.

Originally Posted by footie

Why do you think that?

As far as im aware this is the shifter on the DCT fitted to other BMWs and it's got a park button.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by conradb

Mercedes' new DCT does shifts in 100ms.

http://www.benzinsider.com/2008/11/a...agazine-award/

Can you cite where the M-DCT shifts faster?

Unfortunately, you failed to read past the marketing doublespeak, and fully understand that the Mercedes transmission is not a DCT. Please read up on it. It is a traditional automatic transmission with platentary sets and a *single* output shaft. The innovation they've made is to replace the torque converter with a wet clutch pack. The "multi-clutch" hype refers to the typical clutch packs that you will find governing the engagement of the sun/planet carriers in any modern automatic transmission.

The auto ZF on the 335i claimed 100ms shift times as well. So where is the difference in terms of performance?

I'll let you go ahead and read up on swamp2's threads on this topic on M3Post. He has actually measured the shift time on his M-DCT with data acquisition equipment. It is much-much faster than 100ms.

[mkoesel]

Keep in mind the X5 M and X6 M use the older ZF 6 speed. The new 8 speed can shift faster. Though, it does not mean that it can provide a DCT-matching experience. That said there are cars with traditional automatics that have come close - the Lexus IS-F being one from what I've heard.

Originally Posted by DDS335i

I have driven the X5M and the transmission feels totally different than the DCT in my M3. The shifts feel soft under full throttle and are not crisp like the DCT. Hope this will not be the case for the new M5/6

[F32Fleet]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but the V10 in the E60 M5 was purposely designed to work with the SMG gearbox and only later in the life cycle (due to customer complaints from US buyers) did BMW relent and provided a manual transmission. The fact remains that the M5 has NEVER been a 'track car', is a poor at it, and the majority of the buyers prefer an automatic type transmission. It was also well know years ago when BMW was considering/testing the DCT that the transmissions inability to handle high TQ was a well known weakness (the concept of DCT has been around for a long time).

[footie]

Originally Posted by conradb

The human eye blinks in approx 150ms

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_fast_c...uman_eye_blink

Figure of speech, surely you understood that I might f'ing quick and much quicker than the 200ms or even 100ms that is claimed for a traditional auto.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

True footie - other non-M DCT equipped BMW's anyway.

But remember, he did not say that no BMW with DCT had a park button, he said that no BMW with Steptronic is without one. While tmay only be true as matter of circumstance (rather than necessity) today, I believe that it is a reasonably sound deduction to suggest that BMW has no plans to start building Steptronic equipped vehicles with no explicit Park button or Park function. Therefore the lack of park on the M5 prototype is a reasonably good sign. Well, it is if you are making the leap of faith that this particular part of the test car mimics production.

In the hand the M-DCT lever and setup worked extremely well and is probably the reason as much as any other as to why it would be reused here, plus it is unique to the M cars which is another reason worth using it, even if this were a traditional auto though at the moment it's all pure speculation.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Unfortunately, you failed to read past the marketing doublespeak, and fully understand that the Mercedes transmission is not a DCT. Please read up on it. It is a traditional automatic transmission with platentary sets and a *single* output shaft. The innovation they've made is to replace the torque converter with a wet clutch pack. The "multi-clutch" hype refers to the typical clutch packs that you will find governing the engagement of the sun/planet carriers in any modern automatic transmission.

I'll let you go ahead and read up on swamp2's threads on this topic on M3Post. He has actually measured the shift time on his M-DCT with data acquisition equipment. It is much-much faster than 100ms.

Alas I got dumped from that part of the forum so couldn't comment and as thus stopped following it's findings though I would be surprised if it were found that the M-DCT or any DCT took longer than 10-30ms to complete a full on upshift at maximum revs.

A little off topic but what were the findings of the surge in relation to the shift results?

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Keep in mind the X5 M and X6 M use the older ZF 6 speed. The new 8 speed can shift faster. Though, it does not mean that it can provide a DCT-matching experience. That said there are cars with traditional automatics that have come close - the Lexus IS-F being one from what I've heard.

I know we can all get hung up on the difference between these few ms but in all honest it makes no real noticeable difference in the real world as both can shift way quicker than either you or I could with a manual. To argue for or against the use of DCT or Automatic is revelavent in the grand scheme of the car overall as I am sure BMW will make the right decision based on how they want the M5 to behave.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Socom

It was also well know years ago when BMW was considering/testing the DCT that the transmissions inability to handle high TQ was a well known weakness (the concept of DCT has been around for a long time).

Someone should have told Ferdinand Piëch when he requested this type of transmission to be mated to the 1000hp/922ft-lbs monster used in the Veyron.

[Ras550]

Some of the best sports cars today have AWD (911 Turbo S, GTR, R8). X5M and X6M do too - I think the M5 will be so much more capable handling wise with an AWD and torque vectoring!

[footie]

Originally Posted by Ras550

Some of the best sports cars today have AWD (911 Turbo S, GTR, R8). X5M and X6M do too - I think the M5 will be so much more capable handling wise with an AWD and torque vectoring!

You don't need to convince on this one, 600hp might still be classed as boarderline OK on a rwd super sportscar but on a big 2 ton rwd super saloon that's driven mainly by big cats of industry who's bellies probably touch the steering wheel then I really start to question the logic of these manufacturers. In my opinion what is the point of having this amount of power if a third of it is wasted in a cloud of tyre smoke or not being able to use it at all because it's raining.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by footie

Someone should have told Ferdinand Piëch when he requested this type of transmission to be mated to the 1000hp/922ft-lbs monster used in the Veyron.

Anything is possible, but with weight, cost, performance, it's painfully obvious why BMW had to foregoe the DCT with the new M5. That can not be denied. This is a M5 not a Veyron which spends most of it's life in a garage collecting dust or swimming in SE Texas tidal pools.